Difference between revisions of "1392: Dominant Players"

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'''Basketball'''
 
'''Basketball'''
* {{W|Wilt Chamberlain}} - Becomes the first and so far only player to score {{w|Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game|100 points in a game}}. (In 1962)
+
* {{W|Wilt Chamberlain}} - "Becomes the first and so far only player to score {{w|Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game|100 points in a game}}". (In 1962)
* {{w|Jerry West}} - The Guy in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NBALogo.svg The NBA logo] from 1969. (Read 5th paragraph in this {{w|National_Basketball_Association#Celtics.27_dominance.2C_league_expansion.2C_and_competition|wiki section}})
+
* {{w|Jerry West}} - "The Guy in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NBALogo.svg The NBA logo]" from 1969. (Read 5th paragraph in this {{w|National_Basketball_Association#Celtics.27_dominance.2C_league_expansion.2C_and_competition|wiki section}})
* {{w|Kareem Abdul-Jabbar}} - {{w|Airplane (film)|Airplane}}. (A comedy film from 1980 where he played the co-pilot Roger Murdock)
+
* {{w|Kareem Abdul-Jabbar}} - "{{w|Airplane (film)|Airplane}}". (A comedy film from 1980 where he played the co-pilot Roger Murdock)
* {{w|Magic Johnson}} - {{w|Magic_Johnson#HIV_announcement_and_Olympics_.281991.E2.80.9392.29|HIV announcement}}. This part of his path is dashed. (The line is dashed from 1991 to 1995 - where the fear of Aids forced him to retire)
+
* {{w|Magic Johnson}} - "{{w|Magic_Johnson#HIV_announcement_and_Olympics_.281991.E2.80.9392.29|HIV announcement}}". This part of his path is dashed. (The line is dashed from 1991 to 1995 - where the fear of Aids forced him to retire)
 
** He {{w|Magic_Johnson#Return_to_the_Lakers_as_coach_and_player_.281994.2C_1996.29|returned to play once more}} in the season from 1995-1996
 
** He {{w|Magic_Johnson#Return_to_the_Lakers_as_coach_and_player_.281994.2C_1996.29|returned to play once more}} in the season from 1995-1996
* {{w|Michael Jordan}} - {{w|Michael_Jordan#First_retirement_and_baseball_career_.281993.E2.80.931994.29|Baseball career}}. This part of his path is dashed. (from 1993-1994 he played Baseball - i.e. his first retirement)
+
* {{w|Michael Jordan}} - "{{w|Michael_Jordan#First_retirement_and_baseball_career_.281993.E2.80.931994.29|Baseball career}}". This part of his path is dashed. (from 1993-1994 he played Baseball - i.e. his first retirement)
* Michael Jordan - {{w|Space Jam}}. (An animated comedy film from 1996 starring {{w|Bugs Bunny}} and Jordan - who was the only live character during most of the movie)
+
* Michael Jordan - "{{w|Space Jam}}". (An animated comedy film from 1996 starring {{w|Bugs Bunny}} and Jordan - who was the only live character during most of the movie)
* Michael Jordan - {{w|Michael_Jordan#Second_retirement_.281999.E2.80.932001.29|Second retirement}}. This part of his path is dashed. (He retired again from 1999–2001)
+
* Michael Jordan - "{{w|Michael_Jordan#Second_retirement_.281999.E2.80.932001.29|Second retirement}}". This part of his path is dashed. (He retired again from 1999–2001)
 
** He then {{w|Michael_Jordan#Washington_Wizards_comeback_.282001.E2.80.932003.29|came back}} to play two more years from 2001-2003...
 
** He then {{w|Michael_Jordan#Washington_Wizards_comeback_.282001.E2.80.932003.29|came back}} to play two more years from 2001-2003...
* {{w|LeBron James}} - {{w|The Decision (TV special)|The Decision}} (a television special from 2010 about a heavily hyped decision as to which team he would play for the next season)
+
* {{w|LeBron James}} - "{{w|The Decision (TV special)|The Decision}}" (a television special from 2010 about a heavily hyped decision as to which team he would play for the next season)
  
 
'''Chess'''
 
'''Chess'''
* {{w|José Raúl Capablanca|José Capablanca}} - Terrifying chess God. An arrow points to the left of the panel with his name and the note beneath it. (Considered one of the greatest chess players of all time. As he died in 1942 this lies just outside of the chart. Anyway he had his best years all the way back in 1921-1927 where he became world chess champion seven years in a row)
+
* {{w|José Raúl Capablanca|José Capablanca}} - "Terrifying chess God". An arrow points to the left of the panel with his name and the note beneath it. (Considered one of the greatest chess players of all time. As he died in 1942 this lies just outside of the chart. Anyway he had his best years all the way back in 1921-1927 where he became world chess champion seven years in a row)
 
* {{w|Alexander Alekhine}} - This is the first starburst. There is no text except his name. (He {{w|Alexander_Alekhine#His_final_year|died in 1946}} in Portugal)  
 
* {{w|Alexander Alekhine}} - This is the first starburst. There is no text except his name. (He {{w|Alexander_Alekhine#His_final_year|died in 1946}} in Portugal)  
* {{w|Bobby Fischer}} - Vanished... The second Starburst. (He did not actually vanish, but he did {{w|Bobby_Fischer#Sudden_obscurity|stop playing competitively}} for about 20 years starting in 1972. This is probably a reference to the 1993 film {{w|Searching for Bobby Fischer}}, which is not actually about Fischer, but about a player who partly models his career on Fischer's.  The name ''Searching for Bobby Fischer'' may lead people to believe Fischer literally vanished, but that is not the case)
+
* {{w|Bobby Fischer}} - "Vanished..." The second Starburst. (He did not actually vanish, but he did {{w|Bobby_Fischer#Sudden_obscurity|stop playing competitively}} for about 20 years starting in 1972. This is probably a reference to the 1993 film {{w|Searching for Bobby Fischer}}, which is not actually about Fischer, but about a player who partly models his career on Fischer's.  The name ''Searching for Bobby Fischer'' may lead people to believe Fischer literally vanished, but that is not the case)
* Bobby Fischer - ...Reappeared then vanished again. He had problems. This is written below a double starburst with a short line between. (This is another reference to Fischer - there is no name or clear correlation, except the text that relates to the first reference. He {{w|Bobby_Fischer#1992_Spassky_rematch|resumed playing competitively}} in 1992 for a match. ''{{w|Bobby_Fischer#Life_as_an_.C3.A9migr.C3.A9|He had problems}}'' is a simplistic description of issues and controversies in Fischer's later life, including an arrest warrant (because he violated a U.S. embargo against Yugoslavia), unpaid taxes, controversy about his statements (including {{w|Antisemitism|anti-semitism}}), mental problems.  The U.S. eventually revoked his passport, and he was jailed for eight months in Japan.  He then received Icelandic citizenship, and lived out the rest of his life there.)
+
* Bobby Fischer - "...Reappeared then vanished again. He had problems." This is written below a double starburst with a short line between. (This is another reference to Fischer - there is no name or clear correlation, except the text that relates to the first reference. He {{w|Bobby_Fischer#1992_Spassky_rematch|resumed playing competitively}} in 1992 for a match. ''{{w|Bobby_Fischer#Life_as_an_.C3.A9migr.C3.A9|He had problems}}'' is a simplistic description of issues and controversies in Fischer's later life, including an arrest warrant (because he violated a U.S. embargo against Yugoslavia), unpaid taxes, controversy about his statements (including {{w|Antisemitism|anti-semitism}}), and mental problems.  The U.S. eventually revoked his passport, and he was jailed for eight months in Japan.  He then received Icelandic citizenship, and lived out the rest of his life there.)
* {{w|Garry Kasparov}} - Loses to {{w|Deep Blue (chess computer)|Deep Blue}}. (In 1997 Deep Blue became the first computer to {{w|Deep_Blue_versus_Garry_Kasparov#1997_rematch|beat the current chess world champion}})
+
* {{w|Garry Kasparov}} - "Loses to {{w|Deep Blue (chess computer)|Deep Blue}}". (In 1997 Deep Blue became the first computer to {{w|Deep_Blue_versus_Garry_Kasparov#1997_rematch|beat the current chess world champion}})
* {{w|Judit Polgar}} - (see below). The text in the brackets is written beneath her name. (She is the strongest woman chess player ever and can be seen rising from the gender-defined ranks of women's chess (below). She is the only women shown on this part of the chart. Below in the womans chart, there are several notes - see below... :)
+
* {{w|Judit Polgar}} - "(see below)". The text in the brackets is written beneath her name. (She is the strongest woman chess player ever and can be seen rising from the gender-defined ranks of women's chess (below). She is the only women shown on this part of the chart. Below in the womans chart, there are several notes - see below... :)
  
 
'''Chess (women)'''
 
'''Chess (women)'''
* {{w|Vera Menchik}} - Died in a missile attack on London. This is the Last starburst. (She was killed by an early guided missile - a {{w|V-1 flying bomb}} - launched by the Germans in {{w|World War II}}. For some reason her path does not seems to be dashed, as it should have been before 1970.)
+
* {{w|Vera Menchik}} - "Died in a missile attack on London". This is the Last starburst. (She was killed by an early guided missile - a {{w|V-1 flying bomb}} - launched by the Germans in {{w|World War II}}. For some reason her path does not seems to be dashed, as it should have been before 1970.)
* {{w|Sonja Graf}} - Rating particularly uncertain. This is written above her name, with an arrow pointing there. As a matter of fact, she was clearly the second best woman and her path should be parallel to Menchik's from 1930's. (The path is already dashed indicating that it is a rough estimate, but there were probably very few data for woman chess players before 1960 explaining the note)
+
* {{w|Sonja Graf}} - "Rating particularly uncertain". This is written above her name, with an arrow pointing there. As a matter of fact, she was clearly the second best woman and her path should be parallel to Menchik's from 1930's. (The path is already dashed indicating that it is a rough estimate, but there were probably very few data for woman chess players before 1960 explaining the note)
* {{w|Kira Zvorykina}} - Kira Zvorykina (born 1919) continued playing in tournaments into the 21st century. (Zvorykina was never very high on the list, but can be seen twice centered on 1960 and 1980. She played her [http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calculations.phtml?idnumber=13500392&rating_period=2008-01-01&t=0 last game] rated by the {{w|World Chess Federation}} in October 2007 aged 88. She was still alive when this comic was released and will turn 95 if she lives until September this year 2014)
+
* {{w|Kira Zvorykina}} - "Kira Zvorykina (born 1919) continued playing in tournaments into the 21st century". (Zvorykina was never very high on the list, but can be seen twice centered on 1960 and 1980. She played her [http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calculations.phtml?idnumber=13500392&rating_period=2008-01-01&t=0 last game] rated by the {{w|World Chess Federation}} in October 2007 aged 88. She was still alive when this comic was released and will turn 95 if she lives until September this year 2014)
* Judit Polgar, {{w|Susan Polgar}} and {{w|Sofia Polgar}} - Sisters. (These three chess playing sisters are linked by a thin dashed line, snaking between their names on the chart. Judit is the youngest, Susan the oldest. Judit has now overtaken her sisters, Sofia never reaching the other two sisters level.)
+
* Judit Polgar, {{w|Susan Polgar}} and {{w|Sofia Polgar}} - "Sisters". (These three chess playing sisters are linked by a thin dashed line, snaking between their names on the chart. Judit is the youngest, Susan the oldest. Judit has now overtaken her sisters, Sofia never reaching the other two sisters level.)
* Judit Polgar - {{w|Judit_Polgar#Making_history|Wins a game against Kasparov}}, making her the first woman to beat the world #1. (It took some attempts and some {{w|Judit_Polgar#Kasparov_touch-move_controversy|controversy}} before she managed to beat Kasparov in 2002, in a tournament that was played under rapid rules with 25 minutes per game and a 10 second bonus per move.)
+
* Judit Polgar - "{{w|Judit_Polgar#Making_history|Wins a game against Kasparov}}, making her the first woman to beat the world #1". (It took some attempts and some {{w|Judit_Polgar#Kasparov_touch-move_controversy|controversy}} before she managed to beat Kasparov in 2002, in a tournament that was played under rapid rules with 25 minutes per game and a 10 second bonus per move.)
* Judit Polgar - Becomes first woman to rank in the overall top 10. (She is so far the only woman to break into the top 10 in the {{w|FIDE World Rankings}}. She ranked as high as {{w|Judit_Polgar#Combining_family_and_chess|eighth in the world}} in 2005)  
+
* Judit Polgar - "Becomes first woman to rank in the overall top 10". (She is so far the only woman to break into the top 10 in the {{w|FIDE World Rankings}}. She ranked as high as {{w|Judit_Polgar#Combining_family_and_chess|eighth in the world}} in 2005)  
  
 
In general not all possible players are included in these charts. For instance it is mentioned that Judit Polgar was the first woman ranked in the over all top 10. But only six players are shown on the over all chart around 2005, where she was ranked 8th. This is a general trend for all three charts. So this is [[Randall|Randall's]] subjective list of players that he has deemed to be ''Dominant Players'' and not a full list of the best ranked players during the time period.
 
In general not all possible players are included in these charts. For instance it is mentioned that Judit Polgar was the first woman ranked in the over all top 10. But only six players are shown on the over all chart around 2005, where she was ranked 8th. This is a general trend for all three charts. So this is [[Randall|Randall's]] subjective list of players that he has deemed to be ''Dominant Players'' and not a full list of the best ranked players during the time period.
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It is thus on Randall's whim that some NBA players have been left out of the chart in favor of players with lower career and yearly efficiency ratings. Example: {{w|Tim Duncan}}, {{w|Charles Barkley}}, {{w|Oscar Robertson}}, {{w|Kobe Bryant}}, and Chris Paul could all have been included.
 
It is thus on Randall's whim that some NBA players have been left out of the chart in favor of players with lower career and yearly efficiency ratings. Example: {{w|Tim Duncan}}, {{w|Charles Barkley}}, {{w|Oscar Robertson}}, {{w|Kobe Bryant}}, and Chris Paul could all have been included.
  
A similar reason would explain why former World Champion Chess Grandmaster {{w|Viswanathan Anand}} has not been included in the Chess Chart. Anand is one of six players in history to break the 2800 mark on the FIDE rating list. He occupied the number one position in several rating lists between 2007 and 2011. It is possible that Randall is a huge fan of {{w|Magnus Carlsen}} and biased against Anand as evinced by the comic [[1287:_Puzzle]] (Chess in a 'Go' board - there are no alternate colored squares as required by chess), though the interpretation of the comic and its comment appear to be a double-edged matter of debate.
+
A similar reason would explain why former World Champion Chess Grandmaster {{w|Viswanathan Anand}} has not been included in the Chess Chart. Anand is one of six players in history to break the 2800 mark on the FIDE rating list. He occupied the number one position in several rating lists between 2007 and 2011. It is possible that Randall is a huge fan of {{w|Magnus Carlsen}} and biased against Anand as evinced by the comic [[1287: Puzzle]] (Chess in a 'Go' board - there are no alternate colored squares as required by chess), though the interpretation of the comic and its comment appear to be a double-edged matter of debate.
  
 
Chess players {{w|Vladimir Kramnik}} and  {{w|Levon Aronian}}, who have faced each other on multiple occasions in the 2010s, are shown as having their career paths entwined. It is a general trend observed every time two players paths cross each other more than once (the one on top the first time, will be below the second time and so forth. It is just more clear with these two than anywhere else).
 
Chess players {{w|Vladimir Kramnik}} and  {{w|Levon Aronian}}, who have faced each other on multiple occasions in the 2010s, are shown as having their career paths entwined. It is a general trend observed every time two players paths cross each other more than once (the one on top the first time, will be below the second time and so forth. It is just more clear with these two than anywhere else).

Revision as of 07:03, 11 July 2014

Dominant Players
When Vera Menchik entered a 1929 tournament, a male competitor mocked her by suggesting that a special 'Vera Menchik Club' would be created for any player who lost to her. When the tournament began, he promptly became the first member of said club, and over the years it accumulated a large and illustrious roster.
Title text: When Vera Menchik entered a 1929 tournament, a male competitor mocked her by suggesting that a special 'Vera Menchik Club' would be created for any player who lost to her. When the tournament began, he promptly became the first member of said club, and over the years it accumulated a large and illustrious roster.

A larger version of this image can be found by clicking the image at xkcd - which can be reached easily from here as always, by clicking on the comic number above.

Explanation

Ambox notice.png This explanation may be incomplete or incorrect: Why are some of the players paths red and some gray? Why compare basketball to chess?
If you can address this issue, please edit the page! Thanks.

The comic shows the rise and fall of players' strengths in two games, basketball and chess. For chess, there is an overall chart, and a women's chart.

For basketball, it uses a player efficiency rating.

For chess, it uses the Elo rating. It explains that since Elo is relatively new (it was adopted by the World Chess Federation, FIDE, in 1970), the rating is extrapolated backwards in time and are thus shown as dashed lines before it was generally adopted.
Interestingly it can be read on the Elo wiki page that Sports-reference.com uses the Elo rating system to rate the best professional players in basketball, football, baseball and hockey .

  • There are several references at given times of a career path. These can either be noted with:
    • A node on the path. An arrow will point to the note and state a fact.
    • Dashed path (not including chess player paths from before 1970 where they were all dashed as explained above). An arrow will point to the dashed part and state a fact. (Only for basketball)
    • The starbursts at the end (or beginning) of a path. A fact will be stated next to the node. These are references to a player disappearing (or reappearing) in unusual circumstances. (only for either Chess panel)
  • Some of these are intended to provide context (such as "Loses to Deep Blue"), while others are tangents or jokes.
  • These references are listed below in order of appearance. If it is a dashed line or a starburst it will be mentioned:

Basketball

Chess

  • José Capablanca - "Terrifying chess God". An arrow points to the left of the panel with his name and the note beneath it. (Considered one of the greatest chess players of all time. As he died in 1942 this lies just outside of the chart. Anyway he had his best years all the way back in 1921-1927 where he became world chess champion seven years in a row)
  • Alexander Alekhine - This is the first starburst. There is no text except his name. (He died in 1946 in Portugal)
  • Bobby Fischer - "Vanished..." The second Starburst. (He did not actually vanish, but he did stop playing competitively for about 20 years starting in 1972. This is probably a reference to the 1993 film Searching for Bobby Fischer, which is not actually about Fischer, but about a player who partly models his career on Fischer's. The name Searching for Bobby Fischer may lead people to believe Fischer literally vanished, but that is not the case)
  • Bobby Fischer - "...Reappeared then vanished again. He had problems." This is written below a double starburst with a short line between. (This is another reference to Fischer - there is no name or clear correlation, except the text that relates to the first reference. He resumed playing competitively in 1992 for a match. He had problems is a simplistic description of issues and controversies in Fischer's later life, including an arrest warrant (because he violated a U.S. embargo against Yugoslavia), unpaid taxes, controversy about his statements (including anti-semitism), and mental problems. The U.S. eventually revoked his passport, and he was jailed for eight months in Japan. He then received Icelandic citizenship, and lived out the rest of his life there.)
  • Garry Kasparov - "Loses to Deep Blue". (In 1997 Deep Blue became the first computer to beat the current chess world champion)
  • Judit Polgar - "(see below)". The text in the brackets is written beneath her name. (She is the strongest woman chess player ever and can be seen rising from the gender-defined ranks of women's chess (below). She is the only women shown on this part of the chart. Below in the womans chart, there are several notes - see below... :)

Chess (women)

  • Vera Menchik - "Died in a missile attack on London". This is the Last starburst. (She was killed by an early guided missile - a V-1 flying bomb - launched by the Germans in World War II. For some reason her path does not seems to be dashed, as it should have been before 1970.)
  • Sonja Graf - "Rating particularly uncertain". This is written above her name, with an arrow pointing there. As a matter of fact, she was clearly the second best woman and her path should be parallel to Menchik's from 1930's. (The path is already dashed indicating that it is a rough estimate, but there were probably very few data for woman chess players before 1960 explaining the note)
  • Kira Zvorykina - "Kira Zvorykina (born 1919) continued playing in tournaments into the 21st century". (Zvorykina was never very high on the list, but can be seen twice centered on 1960 and 1980. She played her last game rated by the World Chess Federation in October 2007 aged 88. She was still alive when this comic was released and will turn 95 if she lives until September this year 2014)
  • Judit Polgar, Susan Polgar and Sofia Polgar - "Sisters". (These three chess playing sisters are linked by a thin dashed line, snaking between their names on the chart. Judit is the youngest, Susan the oldest. Judit has now overtaken her sisters, Sofia never reaching the other two sisters level.)
  • Judit Polgar - "Wins a game against Kasparov, making her the first woman to beat the world #1". (It took some attempts and some controversy before she managed to beat Kasparov in 2002, in a tournament that was played under rapid rules with 25 minutes per game and a 10 second bonus per move.)
  • Judit Polgar - "Becomes first woman to rank in the overall top 10". (She is so far the only woman to break into the top 10 in the FIDE World Rankings. She ranked as high as eighth in the world in 2005)

In general not all possible players are included in these charts. For instance it is mentioned that Judit Polgar was the first woman ranked in the over all top 10. But only six players are shown on the over all chart around 2005, where she was ranked 8th. This is a general trend for all three charts. So this is Randall's subjective list of players that he has deemed to be Dominant Players and not a full list of the best ranked players during the time period.

Another example of the above for Basketball would be the 2008–2009 season which was unique in that it was the only season in which more than one player posted an efficiency ratings of over 30.0 on the Player efficiency rating (see at the bottom of this section on Wikipedia). In that season three players broke this barrier: LeBron James (31.76), Dwyane Wade (30.46), and Chris Paul (30.04). LeBron is shown to top that season, But Dwayne is far below (thus the scale does not fit?) and Chris is not on the list (i.e. he was not deemed to be a dominant players according to Randall).

It is thus on Randall's whim that some NBA players have been left out of the chart in favor of players with lower career and yearly efficiency ratings. Example: Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Kobe Bryant, and Chris Paul could all have been included.

A similar reason would explain why former World Champion Chess Grandmaster Viswanathan Anand has not been included in the Chess Chart. Anand is one of six players in history to break the 2800 mark on the FIDE rating list. He occupied the number one position in several rating lists between 2007 and 2011. It is possible that Randall is a huge fan of Magnus Carlsen and biased against Anand as evinced by the comic 1287: Puzzle (Chess in a 'Go' board - there are no alternate colored squares as required by chess), though the interpretation of the comic and its comment appear to be a double-edged matter of debate.

Chess players Vladimir Kramnik and Levon Aronian, who have faced each other on multiple occasions in the 2010s, are shown as having their career paths entwined. It is a general trend observed every time two players paths cross each other more than once (the one on top the first time, will be below the second time and so forth. It is just more clear with these two than anywhere else).

Transcript

Ambox notice.png This transcript is incomplete. Please help editing it! Thanks.

Dominant Players over Time

[Chart 1]

  • Basketball (NBA/ABA)
Player Efficiency Rating

[Chart 2]

  • Chess
Elo Rating

[Chart 3]

  • Chess (Women)
Elo Rating

Trivia

  • The original comic said about Kira Zvorykina "Continued playing in tournaments into the 20th century". The 20th century is the 1900's in which Zvorkina was born (on September 29, 1919 according to Wikipedia). Randall has corrected the notation to say "into the 21st century."
  • The names of three NBA players have been misspelled: Neil Johnston (misspelled as "Neal"), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (missing hyphen), and Julius Erving (misspelled "Irving".)


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Discussion

This may be related to the recent MOBA segregation controversy: http://www.pcgamer.com/uk/2014/07/02/hearthstone-tournament/ 108.162.229.25 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

What is the significance of the line colors? 108.162.215.78 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

I think the red lines are those players that were undisputed #1 for a significant period. 103.22.201.239 08:02, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
But Petrosian has no colored line, although he was world champion. Maybe he did not have the highest ELO rating despite being WC?Jkrstrt (talk) 09:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Ya, this line colouring thing is bugging me. :P Jarod997 (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
The lack of explanation of the red lines bugs me too. Makes me think this comic was rushed, or never finished. 108.162.250.216 22:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Dashed lines are apparently for the period before ELO ratings existed, taking 1965 as a start point (midway between the point in time when ELO rating was adopted by USCF and FIDE, respectively. There seems to be an exception for Alekhine -or is that a very long dash? Jkrstrt (talk) 09:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Naughty Randall, always label your axes! Kaa-ching (talk) 08:00, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The comment in the women's rankings about Kira Zvorykina is a little odd. One would hope she continued playing in tournaments into the 20th century, given that the first 81 years of her life were in the 20th century. 108.162.250.220 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

While at the time, the V-1 was called a "Flying Bomb", wikipedia indeed calls it an early pulse-jet ancestor of the modern cruise missile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb . I built a model of one in an 8th grade rocketry club, replacing the pulse jet with an Estes D-6-0. Mine took off, but sure enough, yes, the stubby wings stalled easily, the flight path was a weird s curve as the wings stalled out twice while under thrust.Seebert (talk) 09:03, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Link to the game against Deep Blue, anybody? Also, shouldn't the title text be at least mentioned? 199.27.128.71 09:13, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Kasparov-Deep Blue Games: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1014770 141.101.64.131 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

The explanation says in the first sentence that for chess there's an overall rating and a woman's rating in the comic. All I see is a men's rating and a woman's rating, no overall rating, however. 108.162.254.24 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

As Judith Polgar is present in the first chart, it appears to be an overall, not specifically a men's chart.Jkrstrt (talk) 11:37, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
My impression is that the above is the Men's Chart but with Judit added (hence the note), because (although unsure because of the curse of unlabelled axes) some of the other top-ranking-women-but-not-top-ranking-overall would still earn a position on the above 'graph'.
(Also, something in me wanted a reference to Chess-Boxing, but it appears that was not the aim.) 141.101.99.233 13:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no "woman" ranking.Chvsanchez (talk) 05:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Anyone knows why Viswanathan Anand is not included (or am I blind?) Marty / 141.101.104.43 I had the exact same question. It appears that this is a West and Russian centric view of the world Indianrediff (talk) 13:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

No. Koneru Humpy is mentioned. He's a big Carlson fan and I think he doesn't like Anand. One of his old comics suggested that. Probably never realised Anand met and beat Carlson back in 2008. 108.162.222.78 16:37, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Out of pure curiosity, could anyone please upload an image/link of how Anand's curve might look, if it was added to the graph? I'm not a huge chess fan, but I am interested in seeing the extent of Randall's possible bias in this regard. 173.245.62.62 05:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

For me it feels weirder to see Stefanova there, but not Topalov. Then again, for some reason Bulgarian media keep a low profile of her. 141.101.104.107 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~) It's Julius Erving not Irving. 173.245.54.151 13:27, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The choice of basketball and chess is something to think about. This mostly is about chess, and basketball represents the physical sports. It immediately stands out that chess players have much longer careers than basketball players. Jim E (talk) 15:55, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Something else I think someone needs to look at is the line of best fit. For basketball it's basically horizontal, but for chess it tends to curve upwards. I'd add it myself, but I feel like there's more than just that and I'm missing something. Athang (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I haven't seen any mention of this interpretation, so it might be just me, but I immediately read the juxtaposition of basketball to chess as a contrast of how skill at the top level of basketball is essentially stagnant, whereas the best chess players have been outstripping their predecessors for decades. 173.245.52.157 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

The y-axis is unlabelled, that's annoying --141.101.93.222 19:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

A couple points; 1) I would interpret the Basketball vs. Chess dichotomy as a slam against basketball, with the (largely) serious comments about chess vs. pointing out movies on BB. There are a jillion things he could have chosen to comment on - why highlight the embarassing career moves of BB players? (2) The rating system for BB has an (essentially) static upper limit, whereas these chess rating systems have larger upper bounds as the player pool grows, so comparisons of upper bounds are unfair. That may be part of the point, or a dishonest comparison. Not sure of Randall's motivations. (not that I like BB anyways...) (3) No comparison to women's BB is made - so this further inclines me to think that there are two separate agendas here: (i) physical BB vs. mental chess and (ii) women's rights in chess. An honest comparison would include women's BB as well. (4) The vertical axis on the graphs do not start at zero, so the scaling could be correct... just somewhat deceiving by violating fundmental rules of creating graphs (no labels, inconsistent scales and they have non-zero bases). (5) Red lines are *generally* the top person at some point in their career for more than 5(?) years (David Robinson seems like the tell)

All in all, rather disappointed in the seemingly conflicting political agendas and poorly represented graphs. Chorb (talk) 21:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, please note that player efficiency ratings and similar "aggregate scores" are the subject of much discussion in basketball due to inherent biases, and their performance is particularly poor when comparing players from different eras. Attempts at adjusting for pace and game styles have not been too successful so far. 108.162.229.87 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

Statistician Jeff Sonas produced his famous research in 2005. You can find his graph here: http://www.chessmetrics.com/cm/CM2/Summary.asp.Chvsanchez (talk) 05:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I have more or less included all the info and thoughts above, and added data tables, and links to a graph of another sources paths. I have thus completed the comic. But feel free to improve or add more (or if still not complete enough please note why and mark it as incomplete again.) ;-) Kynde (talk) 18:31, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

This comic had the potential to be really cool, but Randall just had to go all social justice soldier and shit it up with benevolent-sexist feminism. "Here's the 'regular' graph: Chess. And here's the other graph: Chess (Women!) (They're different) (They're special) (I'm not reinforcing social inequality by doing this, I'm changing it for the better!)." Yeah, eat shit, Randall. 108.162.212.215 16:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Chess is divided by sex at the professional level. Because of the way that Elo is calculated, this division makes it impossible to fairly display them on the same chart. Elo is based on a comparison of players to one another, and because it's not zero-sum, the level of skill described a certain Elo lowers over time. When it was new, a thousand would have been incredible, because everyone had started out low and were competing against other low-ranked players. And since the pools of opponents are different due to the professional-level sex divide, their skills cannot be compared by Elo. Plotting women onto the mens' chart would result in the women being ranked poorly, because the meaning of a certain Elo score is different. This is also why chess is gradually climbing while basketball stays at the same maximum. 108.162.246.209 12:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
That's incorrect, Chess is not officially divided by sex at the professional level. There are "Open" tournaments, in which either gender is welcome to compete, and "Women's" events, in which only women are allowed to compete. Second, elo is not gender specific. It is merely a comparison of playing strength/a prediction of the likelihood player A defeats player B, and there is no "men's" elo and "women's" elo. Nor are the "pools of opponents different." At any broadly open tournament in the world, like the U.S. Open, men and women play each other. You might be mistaken by looking only at ultra high-tier tournaments, which are almost exclusively men, as many of them are by invite or placement only. But again, that is because men dominate the upper level of competition, not because women are not allowed in; it's just a plain statement of fact that a top women's player like Hou Yifan would be steamrolled at a tournament like Wijk An See. When Judit was an active player, she regularly competed in these tournaments because her skill level was on or near par with these players.
In short, your comment is just wrong. The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex. There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players. That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. 108.162.216.210 (talk) (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. Tharkon (talk) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart -- they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. 173.245.54.55 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
For completeness, a Google search reveals no such entity as the "Nepal Basketball Association" in existence (there is a Nepal Basketball League, but it was founded in 2018); the professional basketball league in Australia did not become known as the Australia Basketball Association until 1999; the entity currently known as the ABA League was founded in 2001. 162.158.78.124 18:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC)