explain xkcd - User contributions [en]

2707: Astronomy Numbers

2024-02-13T10:26:02Z

172.70.85.161: /* Explanation */

{{comic
| number = 2707
| date = December 5, 2022
| title = Astronomy Numbers
| image = astronomy_numbers_2x.png
| imagesize = 593x315px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = I adopted a cat that weighs 12 solar masses. Laser pointers love chasing it.
}}

==Explanation==

Space [https://neal.fun/size-of-space/ is big] {{citation needed}}, to the point that it regularly defies our earthly notions of scale. As a result, most quantities in astronomy have huge scales beyond anything that humans regularly experience or measure. (In fact, the word "astronomical" is sometimes used colloquially to describe any extremely large quantity).

For example, Earth has a mass 1023 times more than the average human, and the Sun is 105 times more than that, which itself is 1012 times less massive than the Milky Way. The same applies to speeds, distances, and time, which can often be measured in terms of light speed, light-years, and millions or billions of years. Because of this, it's a truly unusual occurrence for anything in space to end up in the fairly narrow range of scales of mass, size, speed, or time that humans can easily grasp.

[[Ponytail]], apparently a scientist researching something related to Earth's orbit, finds that on a particular date, Earth will be approaching the sun at a velocity of 65 miles per hour. To American ears, this is a very normal sounding value-the speed of a fast-moving vehicle, often used as a speed limit on highways in the US. As Ponytail is accustomed to astronomical values, she is thrown off by this, and remarks that she finds it "suspicious" when reasonably human-scaled numbers come up in astronomy.

However, Ponytail seems to take this philosophy to an absurd degree by insisting that ''all'' scales should be as incomprehensible as astronomical ones, even those used for human-scale measurements, such as the weight of cats. In the third panel, the vet, [[Megan]], is seemingly used to this problem (perhaps she gets a lot of astronomers, or Ponytail has a hypochondriac cat), so she restates the 12-lb weight of Ponytail's cat in solar masses. Since using this unit yields an ''incredibly'' small number, 3×10-30 (a three preceded by a decimal point and 29 zeroes), it satisfies Ponytail's need for incomprehensibly-scaled values. This weight is in fact about 13 lb 2 oz (about 5.5 kilograms), slightly heavier than the initial figure given for the cat, but within [[2585: Rounding|rounding error]] for the single digit of precision that Megan uses. According to [[2205:_Types_of_Approximation | 2205: Types of Approximation]] that rounding error is unusually small for an astronomer, though.

The Earth's orbital velocity around the Sun is far above any normal human scales (around 30 kilometers per second or 108,000 kilometers per hour). However, Earth has a fairly circular orbit around the Sun, so most of this speed ends up being tangential (sideways) rather than radial (towards or away from) the Sun, which is the value relevant for Ponytail's calculations. On January 1 (the date being discussed in the comic), Earth's radial velocity is close to its smallest value because we reach our closest point to the Sun in the first few days of January each year (in 2023, {{w|Perihelion|perihelion}} happens on January 4). Thus, by January 1, the Earth's velocity toward the sun is nearly zero before it starts traveling away from the Sun again. This is how Ponytail ended up with the "suspiciously" small value of 65 miles per hour.

On the other hand, by April 3, 2023, Earth will be receding from the Sun by almost 500 meters per second or 1800 kilometers per hour, which is a less normal speed for the average person to encounter in everyday life{{citation needed}}.

65 miles per hour is approximately equal to 105 kilometers per hour, although the even more typical scientific value (in {{w|International System of Units|SI}} derived units) would be 29 meters per second.

The title text makes a joke by reversing the typical cat behavior of [[729: Laser Pointer|chasing laser pointer dots]] by envisioning a cat with a mass equivalent to 12 solar masses. The {{w|Schwarzschild radius}} for an object of that mass would be around 36 kilometers, so a cat-sized object of that mass would be a black hole, and would therefore bend all nearby light (including that from the laser) inwards towards its singularity. But then it should also draw in the physical laser pointer device itself, if it is neither very far away nor in orbit.

An alternative explanation to the title text is that such a large cat would be incredibly alarming and would draw attention from law enforcement agencies, who would aim their guns (and consequently laser pointers) at the cat.

==Transcript==
:[Ponytail is standing in front of a whiteboard writing on it with a pen, while Cueball looks over her shoulder from behind her. On the board is an almost circular ellipse with a cross that centers on a dot towards the left side of it. On the right side there is a small circle on the ellipse's line. There are several lines of wiggles representing unreadable text. To the left of the ellipse there are two lines near the top of and four near at the bottom of the ellipse. Ponytail is writing a fifth line below these almost under the ellipse. At the bottom to the left there is a rectangular frame with a line of text beneath it and at the bottom left corner there is a line forming a half closed rectangle around two dots.]
:Ponytail: …And we need to correct for our elliptical orbit. On January 1st, Earth will be approaching the sun at a rate of ...let's see...
:Ponytail: 65 miles per hour.
:Ponytail: Weird. Okay.
:Cueball: Weird?

:[Ponytail has turned towards Cueball, the pen is no longer in her hand and the white board is no longer shown.]
:Ponytail: I get suspicious whenever I see a normal number in astronomy. We're not supposed to have those. Feels wrong.
:Ponytail: Scales should all be incomprehensible.

:[Across the top of the next panel there is a label:]
:Earlier, at the vet:
:[Megan in a lab-coat raises her hand palm up towards an animal carrier cage standing on her desk. The cage has a handle and five air holes are at the top. Behind two of them something black inside the cage can be seen. Ponytail is standing on the other side of the desk looking at Megan.]
:Megan: Your cat weighs 12 lbs.
:Ponytail: Ridiculous, nothing weighs "12". You must mean 10-20? Or 1040?
:Megan: Fine. Your cat weighs 3x10-30 solar masses.
:Ponytail: Okay. Better.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Ponytail]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Megan]]
[[Category:Astronomy]]
[[Category:Cats]]

2892: Banana Prices

2024-02-10T02:49:08Z

172.70.85.161: /* Explanation */ Shuffling link text, and surrounds, to be a bit more logical as to what context links to what destination, and also not be A Sea Of Blue that hides the fact that there are separate links given.

{{comic
| number = 2892
| date = February 9, 2024
| title = Banana Prices
| image = banana_prices_2x.png
| imagesize = 564x378px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = It's a linear extrapolation, Michael. How big could the error be? 10%?
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by an IMPERIAL BANANA THERMAL DETONATOR - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_Qyk9DSUw ‘It’s one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?'] is a line from an {{w|Arrested Development}} episode (Season 1, Episode 6, "Charity Drive", 2003) that became well known as a meme used to mock out-of-touch elites. The character who spoke this line -- Lucille Bluth, a rich socialite -- didn't know whether a banana cost $10 in 2003 because she never did any grocery shopping "because we have people for that." According to the graph, the banana price at the time of that episode was actually just under 25 cents, and the price "now" (2024) is around 30 cents.

This comic illustrates a whole suite of ways to violate statistical best practices and to 'lie with data.' And the additional use of an "unreliable narrator" device gives this comic several layers of meaning. The caption writer, in this case, is an unreliable narrator who is ''also'' humorously out-of-touch like Lucille Bluth, but in a different way. They speculate that the error in their result is less than 10%, even when their own three predictions (from 120 years to 220 years) differ by over 80%.

To initially mislead the reader and to ultimately demonstrate how easy it is to be fooled by various methods of 'lying with data,' Randall impressively combines several statistical 'sins' in one graph, such as:
* false precision
* extrapolating an order of magnitude deeper into the future than is advisable
* referring to a logarithmic extrapolation as linear
* ignoring historical norms and high variability in making future predictions
* articulating multiple potential scenarios that are actually highly correlated with each other.

At first, the comic looks like a wry observation that the irony of this sitcom line will be obsolete in a century or two. This comic shows a graph of three, different, projected, future prices for bananas over the next 250 years. One extrapolates from the current price and inflation rate in general. Another uses the more specific inflation rate for fresh fruit, which is made from less data but is more relevant than a general rate dominated by the cost of housing. The final line is an extrapolation from 50 years of historic banana prices. The comic seems to say that it will take a century or two before the irony of the sitcom quote becomes anachronistically meaningless.

(While these extrapolations look linear, they are in fact logarithmic, since a linear extrapolation on a graph with a logarithmic scale is actually a logarithmic extrapolation. The graph is log-linear, with price as a logarithmic scale on the vertical (left) axis, which makes it possible to visualize exponential growth as a straight line.)

The accuracy of this prediction depends on these particular extrapolations being valid. The "general inflation rate" line assumes an average rate of around 3%, matching the historic average in the USA. However, assuming a constant inflation rate for the next 200 years is extremely simplistic. Inflation fluctuates quite a lot in response to economic factors and government policies. It was as high as 6% during recent rounds of economic stimulus and caused fears of hyper-inflation.

Besides getting the inflation rate wrong, another way the extrapolation could be wrong was if -- in the next 100 years -- there were a {{w|Banana#Pests, diseases, and natural disasters|massive banana crash or extinction}} as {{w|Gros Michel banana|has happened before}} due to the banana's lack of genetic diversity, in which case the sharply reduced supply of bananas could send the price past $10 very quickly.

An additional example of "lying with data" is the use of a logarithmic graph for economic data. It's highly unusual to graph economic data logarithmically, as economic variables rarely show exponential change over time -- and even when they do, it's easier to show that change on a normal linear graph. If this same set of extrapolations were shown on a linear graph, the absurdly accelerating slope of the extrapolations would give away how imprecise these extrapolations are.

(The main exception is financial market analysis, in which some traders like to use logarithmic graphs as one of many tools to perceive and predict hidden price trends that don’t show up in normally scaled charts.)

Another, more subtle, illustration of false precision is the graph's use of three different models for the extrapolation of banana prices. At first glance, using three different trend lines seems to show a "range" of potential scenarios and acknowledge the prediction's uncertainty. However, all three underlying trends are correlated: general inflation is highly correlated to fruit price inflation and banana price inflation. Using three different trends that are all highly correlated is scant better than using just one.

Finally, the reference to "BLS/St. Louis Fred" -- a widely respected source of economic data -- appears to lend credibility to the graph, but the only data that is truly credible is the historic price data. It's one more example -- citing respected sources -- of a way to fool unsuspecting readers into giving a prediction more credibility than it deserves.

The title text is a wink from Randall about this unreliable narrator by using the ignorant tone of Lucille Bluth to wryly acknowledge that, in fact, that error of the extrapolations greatly exceeds 10%. Just as Lucille was very wrong about a $10 banana (a price threshold), so too is the speaker of the title text very wrong about the 10% error (a proportional change). It does so in the form of a meta-joke about the false precision of extrapolations, while continuing the theme of the speaker's extreme ignorance. Assuming that the error couldn't be more than 10% shows that the Lucille speaker continues to be hilariously off-base, presuming far more accuracy from a multi-century prediction than is warranted.

Overall, the comic is a clever commentary about the false precision of extrapolation and how easy it is to be fooled by it, illustrating its point by initially misleading the reader with its own false precision, and wrapping it all in a pop-culture reference. Any economic extrapolation into the distant future based on past data points is just an educated guess likely to be quite wrong, with an expected error far in excess of 10%. (A rare example of a field in which 75-year predictions are highly accurate is demographic age charts, since the number of babies born this year is causal of the # of 75-year-olds alive in 75 years.)

Log scales and their peculiarities are a recurring xkcd theme, and this is the second comic in a row to play with logarithms (the prior one being [[2891: Log Cabin]]). It's also the second comic in the last four to involve predictions across centuries (i.e. [[2889: Greenhouse Effect]]). Another comic whose subject is extrapolation is [[605: Extrapolating]]. This comic looks a lot like [[1007: Sustainable]].

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[A graph with the x-axis showing time, from the years 1950 to around 2275. The y-axis is a log scale showing the price of a banana from $0.10 to over $10.00. A label called "Price of a banana (BLS/St. Louis ''Fred''[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/])" show a rising trend in the price of a banana. There are two dots on that trend. One is labeled "Episode airs" and the other one "Now". 3 extrapolations shown as dashed lines labeled "General inflation rate", "Fresh fruit price trend" and "Banana price trend" extend until reaching the $10 mark, indicated by 3 dots.]

:[Caption above the graph:] "It's one banana, Michael. What could it cost? $10?"

:[Caption below the panel:] That line probably has another century or so left.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Line graphs]]
[[Category:Timelines]]
[[Category:Fiction]]
[[Category:Extrapolation]]

2343: Mathematical Symbol Fight

2024-01-31T22:05:53Z

172.70.85.161: Undo revision 333925 by 172.71.150.19 (talk) Beyond a stretch. Clearly not serious. (Hint: add comment with what this refers to, if seriously found something obscure.)

{{comic
| number = 2343
| date = August 7, 2020
| title = Mathematical Symbol Fight
| image = mathematical_symbol_fight.png
| titletext = Oh no, a musician just burst in through the door confidently twirling a treble clef.
}}

==Explanation==
This comic imagines which {{w|List of mathematical symbols|mathematical symbols}} would be good in a fight if they were made corporeal in two (or three) dimensions.

Generally, objects with longer reach and pointier ends wound up on the right ("more useful") side of the scale, and symbols with less reach and more curves wound towards the left ("less useful") side. A straight line is farthest to the "more dangerous" side; however, the straight line does not appear to be any thicker or thinner, or pointier, than any of the other lines that would make it more "useful" (It should be noted that this chart seems to fall afoul of what {{w|Eliezer Yudkowsky}} (who also wrote HPMoR) calls the ''intent to kill'': that humans tend to define "winning a fight" and "useful" as causing some form of bodily harm on their opponent despite survival and purely defensive strategies being an equally valid goals.).

Below the chart, with the symbols listed in order of usefulness, eight characters wield eight of the symbols. See the [[#Table of symbols|table]] below for the meaning of each symbol.

The comic invokes {{w|Surreal humour|surreal humor}} by suggesting that mathematical symbols could be handled as physical objects in the real world. Another component of the humor is the implication that it is useful to prepare to use mathematical symbols in a fight, even though mathematicians, who use mathematical symbols, usually do not conduct their debates violently (though some stories suggest that {{w|Hippasus}} was killed by his fellow Pythagoreans for his proof that irrational numbers exist), and even if they did, they wouldn't use large reproductions of their symbols as weapons.

The title text refers to a {{w|Treble clef}}, which is not a mathematical symbol but rather a {{w|List of musical symbols|musical symbol}}. The note of concern in the text suggests musical symbols may be viewed in such fights as exotic or especially dangerous. See also the last entry in the table below.

Note that [[Black Hat]] and [[Danish]] are using two of the most useful symbols, and appear to have teamed up against their opponents, resulting in an unfair advantage they would both absolutely exploit.

==Table of symbols==
{| class="wikitable"
! Symbol
! Meaning
! Notes on using in a fight
|-
| ℝ
|The set of [[wikipedia:real number|real number]]s
|[[Megan]] seems to be struggling with a giant version of this symbol because of its weight. A very strong person might find it slightly more useful as a bludgeon.
|-
| θ
|[[wikipedia:Theta#Mathematics_and_science|Theta]]
|This symbol is not very sharp, and [[White Hat]] is unable to use it in combat. It would not work as a good shield due to the hole in the symbol, but it possibly could be thrown. (The later version of Xena's chakram had a bar in the middle.)
|-
| ∅
|[[wikipedia:Empty set|Empty set]]
|Similarly shaped to theta, but identified as being slightly more useful, presumably because the parts of the bar that extend beyond the circle can be used as thrusting weapons. Alternatively, the round nature of the symbol makes it easier to handle for defense, by holding on to the line and using the edge of the circular part to block.
|-
| ∞
|infinity
|Could be gripped between the rings and used as a blunt instrument.
|-
| >
|Greater than
|Could be used to thrust with the point, but lacks a grip by which to do so. If held by one leg, the angle and balance is wrong to use it as a pick. Could also be used as a [[wikipedia:Boomerang|boomerang]].
|-
| ∝
|[[wikipedia:Proportionality_(mathematics)#Direct_proportionality|Direct Proportionality]] (not to be confused with lowercase {{w|Alpha#Mathematics and science|alpha}})
|Could be brandished by the ring and used to thrust with the prongs, but the two prongs extending at 90-degree angles make thrusting motions awkward.
|-
| ∪
|{{w|union (set theory)}}
|Could be used as a boomerang, which is {{tvtropes|PrecisionGuidedBoomerang|notoriously less practical in real life than in fiction}}
|-
| ∈/ϵ
|{{w|Element (mathematics)|member of}} (set theory) or the "lunate" lowercase {{w|Epsilon#Symbol|epsilon}}
|[[Cueball]] is holding this in the manner of a Klingon "{{w|Bat'leth}}" from the ''Star Trek'' franchise. The Bat'leth is [https://youtu.be/VsElSDXPgSA infamous] among swordfighters for being rather impractical, and that the Klingon warrior race would have been better suited using swords like humans. It seems Randall agrees, as the ∈ is quite far on the left of the chart.
|-
| π
|[[wikipedia:Pi|pi]]
|Could be used as a hammer, but the two handles would make doing so impractical.
|-
| ∀
|"{{w|Universal quantification|for all}}"
|Could be held by the crossbar clenched in a fist, and then used as a {{w|push dagger}}, with the legs acting as a guard. Or could be held by the legs.
Compared to the similar Δ (delta) the point is sharper, the grip is closer to the point so it would be easier to control (keep the weapon from twisting). It is unclear why it is listed as much less effective than the delta. Perhaps the guard legs are too long?
|-
| ∂
|{{w|∂}} ([[wikipedia:Partial derivative|partial derivative]] or [[wikipedia:Boundary_(topology)|boundary operator]])
|It's not clear why Randall ranks this symbol as so much less effective than the similarly-shaped 𝜌, but the curl in the "tail" of the ∂ would give it a shorter lever arm when swung and would disrupt the balance.
|-
| +
|[[wikipedia:Plus_and_minus_signs#Plus_sign|Plus]]
|Maybe thrown like a {{w|shuriken}}? It could also be used like [[wikipedia:Kylo Ren|Kylo Ren]]'s lightsaber.
|-
| Ψ
|[[wikipedia:Psi#Mathematics|Psi]]
|It could be used as a slightly-less-functional trident or pitchfork, with a shorter handle. More particularly, it resembles a {{w|Sai (weapon)|sai}} (which, funnily enough, is how "Psi" is pronounced).
|-
| ≠
|not equal sign
|Could be gripped by the crossbar, using the lengths to puncture. Notably, the equal sign (=) is absent from the chart, likely because the lengths are separate and would not be used as a single entity.
|-
| ~
|[[wikipedia:Tilde#Mathematics|tilde]], meaning "approximately", equivalent, or several transforms of a function. Also used as {{w|Negation#Notation|negation in mathematical logic}} and, in various programming languages, to symbolize {{w|Bitwise operation#NOT|bitwise NOT}} (amongst {{w|Tilde#Computer languages|many, ''many'' other possible uses...}}).
|A potentially dangerous throwing weapon. Could also be similar to a wavy bladed dagger ({{w|Kris}}) or a sword ({{w|Flame-bladed sword}}).
|-
| #
|[[wikipedia:Cardinality|Cardinality]], [[wikipedia:Connected_sum|connected sum]] (knot theory), or [[wikipedia:Primorial|primorial]].
|[[Blondie]] uses this symbol, gripping it by two of the prongs on one side. The other three prongs could thus be swung at opponents, but being sharp on all sides would pose a threat to the user as well as the opponent.
|-
| Δ
|[[wikipedia:Delta_(letter)|Delta]]
|Could be held with one bar clenched in a fist, and then used as a {{w|push dagger}}. It is unclear why listed as much more effective than ∀. Also, delta could be thrown like a star.
|-
| ⇒
|[[wikipedia:Material_conditional|Material consequence]] or [[wikipedia:Logical_consequence|Logical consequence]], meaning "implies"
|The point is nice, but having two poles (or one board-like thick handle, if the shape is drawn "closed" at the back) would be difficult to wield. A collection of them might make a nice defensive pike line.
|-
| ⋅
|decimal point (or multiplication sign)
|Functionally a ball, and could therefore be thrown as a projectile weapon, or scattered on the ground as a trip hazard.
|-
| ζ
|{{w|Zeta#Mathematics_and_science|Zeta}}
|Could be sharpened into a scythe or curved saber, depending on the curvature and length of the 'tail' at the bottom.
|-
| ℵ
|[[wikipedia:Aleph_number|Aleph number]]
|The irregular shape of the symbol leads to edges and points on all sides; thus it could be brandished or thrown in the manner of a shuriken.
|-
| Γ
|uppercase Greek letter {{w|Gamma#Uppercase|Gamma}}
|If this letter is formed with {{w|serif}}s, it could be used as an axe or hook, and if it is made {{w|sans-serif}}, it would make a powerful pick or war hammer.
|-
| √
|{{w|Radical symbol}}
|Randall has drawn this sign with a long overbar, which makes it useful like a {{w|Pole weapon|pole arm}}. [[Black Hat]] has chosen this symbol in his fight against [[Hairy]].
|-
| ''ρ''
|{{w|Prime_constant|italic rho}}
|[[Ponytail]] is brandishing this symbol against [[Danish]], apparently using it like a club or hammer and striking with the curve.
|-
| ∮
|{{w|contour integral}}
|This symbol is drawn with a very tight center, giving it an almost identical figure to the regular integral symbol. Presumably, the added bulk for marginal additional use earns it a rating of 'less effective'.
|-
| ∫
|{{w|integral}}
|Could be used in the manner of a shepherd's crook, or as a {{w|Bill (weapon)|billhook}}. Could be used as a {{w|spear thrower}}, combined with ⋅ or ⇀.
|-
| →
|Implies; X→Y means that if X is true, then Y is also true
|[[Danish]] is brandishing this symbol against Ponytail, apparently using it like a spear.
|-
| ⊥
|{{w|up tack}} or falsum, indicating a false proposition in logic, perpendicular lines in geometry, or the bottom element in a partial order
|Used as a {{w|war hammer}} (held by the long stem), the opponent would be struck with either leg of the top of the T. Held by the short legs (like a wishbone), could be used as a two handed sword.
(If tipped with a knapped stone head, it could become a {{w|Folsom point|falsum point}}.)
|-
| ⇀
|{{w|Vector notation}}
|Could be used as a single-barbed spear or, if held by the other end, similarly to a sabre. The multi-functionality is probably why it is listed as more useful than the 'implies' arrow.
|-
| ––
|{{w|Fraction#Vocabulary|Fraction bar}} (division) or {{w|Overline#Math_and_science|overline}} (complex conjugate or mean) or {{w|Plus and minus signs#Minus sign|minus sign}}.
|[[Hairy]] is brandishing this symbol against Black Hat. The single shaft would allow it to be used in the manner of a {{w|quarterstaff}}, {{w|bō}}, or other {{w|stick-fighting}} weapon. Of the symbols shown in the comic, Randall considers this one the most useful in a fight, presumably because of its greater reach than the vector arrow and its simplicity compared to the radix root symbol. Alternatively, could be handled like a pike, with a reach greater than that of an implication or vector arrow.
|-
| 𝄞
|{{w|Treble clef}} (title text)
|Mentioned in the title text; this is not a mathematical symbol, but a musical symbol. The treble clef is a much more complicated symbol than those used in mathematics, hence the musician's "confidence" in his weapon. The curve at the bottom could be used as a hook, the upper curl could be used as a blunt weapon, and the tight curl of the center would serve as a better defensive shield than theta.
|}

==Transcript==
:[A chart is shown with 30 different symbols arranged above a line with arrows in both ends and with 17 ticks between the arrow heads. The symbols are mostly in two rows, but the first two symbols from the left do not have another symbol above them, and towards the right there are a segment with three rows of symbols. Above the symbols there is a heading and a subheading. And beneath those there is a long arrow pointing right with a label above it.]
:<big>Mathematical Symbols</big>
:By how useful they would be in a fight
:More useful
: ℝ ∅ > ∝ π + Ψ ~ ⇒ ⋅ Γ √ ∮ ∫ ⇀
: θ ∞ ∪ ∈ ∀ ∂ ≠ # Δ ζ ℵ ''ρ'' → ⊥ ––

:[Below the double arrow line are eight characters that fight each other in groups of two by using some of the symbols shown above them as weapons. They have chosen symbols that are almost above them in the chart.]
:[Megan is awkwardly handling a giant "ℝ" holding it up against White Hat who is holding a "θ" (or "∅"?) with both hands, as a shield.]
:[Cueball is holding an "∈" in both hands, with its "tines" pointed towards Blondie, who is swatting at him with a "#".]
:[Ponytail is leaping at Danish, swinging a "''ρ''" like an axe, while Danish is leaning back and thrusting a "→" back at her.]
:[Black Hat is swinging a long "√" like a polearm at Hairy, who is holding a long "⎯" defensively.]

==Trivia==
*Here is a list of symbols from left to right (by rightmost edge):
** ℝ θ ∅ ∞ > ∪ ∝ ∈ ∀ π ∂ + ≠ Ψ # ~ △ ζ ⇒ ⋅ ℵ Γ ''ρ'' √ → ∮ ∫ ⊥ ⇀ ––
**Note: Where two symbols had similar right-most edges, the overlay grid on an ASUS pro-art display was used to decide which one went further right.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Charts]]
[[Category:Rankings]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Megan]]
[[Category:Comics featuring White Hat]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Blondie]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Ponytail]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Danish]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Black Hat]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Hairy]]
[[Category:Math]]
[[Category:Music]]

Talk:2880: Sheet Bend

2024-01-13T22:13:52Z

172.70.85.161: Comment reply

This comic contained material familiar to a hobby engineer that was cast critically and derogatorily (e.g. “sheety” bend) throughout the explanation. I edited a lot of it. I’ve seen this happen repeatedly in other explanations. I don’t edit most of them. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.150.155|172.71.150.155]] 18:41, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Why is this called a "sheet" bend? [[User:SystemParadox|SystemParadox]] ([[User talk:SystemParadox|talk]]) 21:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
:I don't know the full answer but it's a sailing thing: the 'sheet' is the rope you pull in or let out to control the position of the sail. I guess bend describes the category of knot. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.48|172.70.90.48]] 21:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
::NO NO NO. The sheet is the sail. [[User:JohnB|JohnB]] ([[User talk:JohnB|talk]]) 21:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
:::It is the rope - {{w|Sheet (sailing)}}. "In sailing, a sheet is a line (rope, cable or chain) used to control the movable corner(s) (clews) of a sail." [[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.5|172.71.242.5]] 21:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
::::Huh. Dueling Wikipedia articles. The Sheet_bend article has a definition section that says the term "sheet bend" derives from its use bending ropes to sails (sheets). But the Sheet_(sailing) article says a sheet is a line used to control the movable corner(s) of a sail. [[User:JohnB|JohnB]] ([[User talk:JohnB|talk]]) 23:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
::The sheet bend is named for its ability to to secure a sail, or sheet. You fold over the corner of the sail and that's one of your "ropes". The sheet bend is generally used as a knot for tying a large, inflexible rope (or rope-like object) to a smaller, more flexible rope.[[Special:Contributions/172.69.70.22|172.69.70.22]] 22:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
::I would take the Ashley Book of Knots as authoritative. Sheet Bend is the first knot in the book, and is always (in modern terms) rope-to-rope, not to sail. It is one of the basic knots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_bend
::{{unsigned|PRR|04:04, 13 January 2024}} 
:I added a link to the wikipedia entry, it explains the name. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 21:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
:Presumably the "different loads" title text is a pun between electrical load and mechanical stress on the knot? [[User:Jim-at-home|Jim-at-home]] ([[User talk:Jim-at-home|talk]]) 21:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

A sail is never, and was never, properly called a "sheet", since at least the 13th century. The Wikipedia explanation of the name is misleading. According to https://www.etymonline.com/word/sheet, it's "shortened from Old English sceatline "sheet-line," from sceata "lower part of sail," originally "piece of cloth," from same Proto-Germanic source as sheet (n.1)." [[User:Jlearman|Jlearman]] ([[User talk:Jlearman|talk]]) 17:44, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
: When i took a sailing class as a kid they used the word “sheet”, I think it was the lines connected to the sails used for adjusting them? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.82|108.162.245.82]] 19:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

“silver being joined to silver and gold being joined to gold within the insulating white cable” is not the conventional way to join cables.
Unless you are joining one cable to itself (like a Möbius strip), you have ''two'' cables with insulation.
And usually you use non-cursed connectors, where you first remove the insulation at the end of the cable and then crimp or solder the conductors to metal parts of the connector; or solder the conductors and then add a different type of insulation for protection; or use screw terminals;...
Only with insulation displacement connectors you keep using all the insulation of the two cables.
And finally, conductors are usually copper ''or'' aluminum, and very rarely silver ''and'' gold. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.94.141|162.158.94.141]] 08:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
:I think the gold and silver is just color coded for the reader. Not that they are meant to indicate that the conductors are made from this material. Apart from that you comment sounds like you know what you are talking about. So please improve the explanation if you can. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

::: I changed it to gold- and silver-colored. It was obvious to me that it was the colours used in the comic that were being referenced, but fixed for the avoidance of doubt. The join being made within the one cable was clearly an error though. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.161|172.70.85.161]] 22:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

:: cables often have the signal parts copper-colored (described gold atm) and they are obviously copper, and the outer ground more the color of steel or something, not sure what metal it is, but it’s easy to solder like copper or silver is, not aluminum which is very hard to solder. usually gold and silver are used at the contacts of a connector, not inside a wire, i don’t know who would ever make that mistake. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.83|108.162.245.83]] 19:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

::: Not wishing to spoil it, but the series finale of {{w|Cabin Pressure (radio series)|a certain radio comedy}} reveals... ah well, that's the spoiler (in the article, if you read that far down... rather than just listen to it if you haven't heard about it already but now think you like the premise). [[Special:Contributions/172.69.79.188|172.69.79.188]] 21:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay I looked at the wikipedia article and the knot depicted in the comic looks like a right handed one. I still don't know why it's called right handed, or why the left handed one is insecure.[[Special:Contributions/198.41.236.207|198.41.236.207]] 11:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

A note I nearly added in the bit about short-circuits (or, as I added, 'un'circuiting) is that the electrical behaviour of the knot is different according to which 'end' slips. If the left-side cable 'slips through' enough, then its gold and silver bits of sheath could contact (would short-circuit any current driven at that side). If the right-side cable slips out, it is in no danger of doing so for a right-driven current (it would just disconnect). That ignores the cross-talking that could occur (on one conducting line at a time, so may not matter if there's no external ground-return element, except as far as not being a proper connection any more), or ''both'' ends slipping (where one of the LHS sheaths ''might'' shuffle into a position to bridge the two RHS sheaths). But, as tied, the LHS silver (being bent in and out of the page around its crossing counterpart wire) seems unlikely to be pressed against both gold and silver, should it trivially untwine/slip through. Actual studies with actual knots might be useful. I thought I had a spare length of unterminated Cat5, nearby, but apparently (k)not... that, with some coloured permanent marker-pen marks made upon it, would probably have made a decent analogue for visual analysis of failure conditions. Maybe I'll de-plug an old cable (I've got a number of damaged USB cables I could chop, but their being thinner would change the scale and dynamics of the knot, meaning I might as well just use a scrap of twisted-pair internally-sheathed strands). – But I thought you'd like my mind's-eye analysis of the knot behaviour, before I get around to trying anything practical to this end. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.7|141.101.99.7]] 17:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC) (<- ex Cub-/Boy-/Venture-Scout, but never got any Knot ''Un''tying badge... that brief stint with escapology aside... ;) )

"this is a scenario commonly encountered by hobby engineers from the last millenium"
"commonly"? Can any hobbyist engineers from the last millennium attest? Also, this sounds ageist - is it ageist? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.166|172.70.86.166]] 21:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

2715: Pando

2024-01-12T21:22:57Z

172.70.85.161: Dangling <ref>s don't really work well. Either put in the 'ref-catcher' code at the right point (to stop it appearing right at the end of the article, below the Discussion) or actually try to make it a word-link (like I did here, maybe improvable).

{{comic
| number = 2715
| date = December 23, 2022
| title = Pando
| image = pando_2x.png
| imagesize = 422x372px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The presents under the tree are actually a single gift connected by an underground ribbon system.
}}

==Explanation==
This comic was the [[:Category:Christmas|Christmas comic]] of 2022.

{{w|Pando_(tree)|Pando}} is a {{w|Populus tremuloides|quaking aspen}} tree colony in {{w|Fishlake National Forest}}, Utah. Depending on the measurement method ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWAA-SrrFUQ there being various options]), Pando is the largest living organism on earth, and is thereby also the largest tree on earth. By dry mass (mass not including water), Pando is the largest living thing humans have found. There is [https://www.forbes.com/sites/linhanhcat/2019/02/22/largest-organism-in-the-world/ one fungus in Oregon] which may weigh more including water, but a fungus is [[1749: Mushrooms|not a tree]].

Pando is a tree colony, a type of {{w|clonal colony}} made of trees. Clonal colonies all form from the same seed or other origin, and are all genetically identical. Tree colonies spread using their extensive root system. Under all trees are {{w|Root|roots}}, which gather nutrients and water from soil. On clonal trees (such as the {{w|Populus tremuloides|quaking aspen}}, Pando's species), when roots from one tree surface they can form another stalk/tree, remaining the same genetic stock; this is unlike propagation by seeds. This clone then grows its own root network and is part of the clonal colony. Crucially, the linking roots between 'generations' of the plant do not naturally separate, so all effective clones stay attached. Each such stalk still has an individually limited lifespan of decades to centuries, but the colony can persist and propagate in this manner for millennia. For example, the only known wild example of {{w|Lomatia tasmanica|''Lomatia tasmanica'', also known as King's lomatia}}, is a clonal shrub thought to be at least 43,600 years old, and Pando itself is thought to be around 14,000 years old.

{{w|Christmas}} is a celebration on the 25th of December, traditionally commemorating the birth of {{w|Jesus}}. The celebration is often claimed to be built heavily upon pagan traditions,[https://chefin.com.au/blog/these-6-christmas-traditions-are-actually-pagan-customs/] (though this is disputed by some historians[https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/]) as well as on annual social customs. It has evolved into a more secular event for many. This comic was published on the 23rd of December, two days before Christmas, or [[Christmas Eve Eve]].

The concept of a {{w|Christmas tree}} is rooted in various pre-Christian folkloric traditions and, in the modern era, may be adapted or adopted as desired by local and personal circumstances. It need not be an {{w|evergreen}} tree with an angel or star atop, though that is the oft-depicted image, but can be any handy plant or artificial substitute strewn with decorations and/or {{w|Christmas lights|lights}} as the owner wishes. People and places often compete to hold the record for the largest Christmas tree. At time of writing, the officially tallest Christmas tree was a 64.36 m (221 ft) tall {{w|Douglas-fir}} that was displayed in {{w|Northgate Station (shopping mall)|Northgate Shopping Center}},{{Actual citation needed}} Seattle, WA in 1950.[https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/77271-tallest-christmas-tree][https://www.historylink.org/File/21359] The one with the most area is likely the [https://www.italybyevents.com/en/events/umbria/world-largest-christmas-tree-gubbio/ Christmas tree display] in {{w|Gubbio}}, a town in {{w|Umbria, Italy}}, where hundreds of trees on a mountain face are lit up with light to form a Christmas tree shape.

In this comic, [[Randall]] proposes putting Christmas lights all the way around Pando to turn it into (technically) a Christmas tree. As Pando is the world's largest tree, if this plan were carried out, it would safely take the record for largest Christmas tree and hold it for quite some time. In the inset map, Randall has drawn the path of the Christmas lights as a {{w|convex hull}} around the edge of Pando. [https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1Wgz5CxvxHC7FKMHWp5zkPQuQsZevBqU&usp=sharing Roughly tracing Pando on Google Maps] reveals its perimeter to be roughly 2.77 km or 1.72 miles, or roughly 9,000 ft. Allowing a little wiggle-room for differing levels of accuracy, and possibly the extra length required to suspend the shallow {{w|catenary}} loops of the lights and wrap them around the various supporting branches, 9,300 ft of Christmas lights seems about right.

The title text suggests that similarly to how trees that make up Pando are interconnected by underground roots, the gifts under the proposed Christmas tree are interconnected by underground ribbons. It may also be a reference to fungus, which often grow beneath trees, and can be connected by vast underground mycelial networks, suggesting that the christmas presents are the fruiting bodies of a similar network (perhaps a reference to [[2246: Christmas Presents]]).

==Transcript==

:[The main comic frame is a profile view of a number of separated trees, of varying heights and maturity, across each of which (of those with sufficient height) has apparently been draped a single chain of decorative lights that goes from off-image at one side to off-image at the other.]

:[Inset in the bottom right is a mini-map implicating that these light-linked 'trees' are actually all risers from a single large superorganism (as a shaded complex but contiguous shape labelled "Pando"), the map has a "N"orth pointer, a scale bar indicating the length of "1,000 ft" (approximately a third of the shaded mass's full width) and a convex hull perimeter line tightly fitting the shaded area that has an indicative arrow from a label informing us that its length would be "9,300 ft".]

:[Caption below:] Christmas Science Fact: Pando is approximately 9,300 feet of lights away from being the world's largest Christmas Tree.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]] 
[[Category:Christmas]]
[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Facts]]

1323: Protocol

2024-01-11T07:08:03Z

172.70.85.161: /* Explanation */ Manipulative/scheming, maybe at an extreme, but no reason that it should involve actual lies.

{{comic
| number = 1323
| date = January 29, 2014
| title = Protocol
| image = protocol.png
| titletext = Changing the names would be easier, but if you're not comfortable lying, try only making friends with people named Alice, Bob, Carol, etc.
}}

==Explanation==
{{w|Alice_and_Bob|Alice, Bob, and Eve}} are role names traditionally used in describing cryptographic protocols. Rather than talking about "Person A", "Person B", "Person C", names beginning with each letter are used instead, and giving them different genders let pronouns be used to shorten discussions. For example: "Person A sends Person B a message encoded with Person B's public key" is much easier to parse when written as "Alice sends Bob a message encoded with his public key." Eve is short for "eavesdropper" - a person trying to find out what's being said in the conversations between the other people. The classic situation involves Alice wanting to send a secret message to Bob, while Eve (the eavesdropper), attempts to read the message, ideally without Alice or Bob ever finding out. Additional participants such as Carol (Person C) can be added if necessary. The list of names has become very standardized over time as described at {{w|Alice and Bob}}.

The joke here is that any computer scientist, hearing the names used, will think that they are listening to a cryptography problem. By changing the names in a story to these role names, you can induce them to listen carefully to boring stories. The fewer the interesting details, the more it sounds like a general problem, so very boring stories are actually the easiest.

The title text shows a more radical approach to the problem, for people "who do not feel comfortable about lying". In this approach, you only make friends with people who have the appropriate names already which means that technically you tell the story like it is. But this approach means investing a lot more effort into curating such a situation, possibly even to ensure that the Eve that you befriend is an actual habitual eavesdropper.

The comic title also can be interpreted in two ways. First, the computer scientist thinks the conversation is about an encryption protocol. Second, the way the conversation is carried resembles a protocol used by many data communication systems, where one side sends data while the other sends back an {{w|Acknowledgement (data networks)|acknowledgement}} upon receiving the data. In this case, the data are the lines of the boring story.

In comic [[177: Alice and Bob]] these names are used in the same context. Instead of Alice and Bob being perfectly innocent people who just want to communicate in private, Bob is actually having an affair with Alice. Eve —his former partner— cracked the encryption to see what the message contained. Thus, this comic seems to continue the Alice/Bob romance, jealous-Eve plot, with Eve apparently confronting Alice over her text message to Bob. The names are also mentioned in [[2691: Encryption]].

==Transcript==
:[Cueball is telling a story to a Computer Scientist who is seated at his desk.]
:Cueball: Alice sends a message to Bob saying to meet her somewhere.
:Computer Scientist: Uh huh.
:Cueball: But Eve sees it, too, and goes to the place.
:Computer Scientist: With you so far.
:Cueball: Bob is delayed, and Alice and Eve meet.
:Computer Scientist: Yeah?
:CAPTION: I've discovered a way to get computer scientists to listen to any boring story.

{{comic discussion}}
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Computers]]
[[Category:Cryptography]]
[[Category:Multiple Cueballs]]

Talk:2870: Love Songs

2024-01-03T12:33:01Z

172.70.85.161:

I need to know which axis means “does the ‘me’ like them” because I fail to understand it.--[[Special:Contributions/172.71.134.164|172.71.134.164]] 23:53, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
:Pick a song you know that isn't near the (X=Y) line, and it should explain it.
:e.g. "That don't impress me much", at centre-top. Clearly the other party is trying to impress (likes the 'me') but Shania is ambivalent in response (she doesn't actually love their being a rocket-scientist, nor hate it).
:"Killing me softly..." is from 'me' having love, whilst "You're so vain..." is actively insulting the other party (but indifference by the target ''could'' be the attitude).
:Though for X=Y items (e.g. "I will survive" - it's declared to be an unamicable but ultimately mutually-acceptable split) the way round of course doesn't matter. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.194.224|172.69.194.224]] 00:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm hoping "I Will Survive" isn't a reference to the Zootopia abortion comic. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.174.82|172.68.174.82]] 23:56, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
:Well, some of the (apparently obvious) references I didn't know. First thought about "Girlfriend" was the {{w|Girlfriend in a Coma (song)|The Smiths song}} ''almost'' of that name. (And it looks like there are almost thirty possible songs... not sure how many are covers of others... {{w|Girlfriend (disambiguation)#Songs|under that exact name}}.) Can I suggest that any possible songs that could be confused (but maybe not match the plotted position, being of a different story/tone) be recorded in a "Not to be confused with..." section? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.177|172.71.178.177]] 01:02, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::At first, I confused "The Shape of You" with [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xVigsyoJw "The Shape of Things"]. Whose position and trajectory on the chart would be complex. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 19:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

not pictured: Jim Steinman songs, which spend most of their time out of the XY plane. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.214.109|172.69.214.109]] 00:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Gotta say, Perfect is a far better Ed Sheeran song than Shape of You

The fault here is not so much with the axes or their interpretation as with the verb, "to love." [http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~heycock/thurber-only.html Nothing can be done about the verb "to love."] [[Special:Contributions/172.70.210.62|172.70.210.62]] 04:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

(reads comic) (automatically sorts in all "Offspring" love songs) (thanks very much, xkcd, you got me again) [[Special:Contributions/172.71.160.124|172.71.160.124]] 09:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Or Rammstein. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.95.114|162.158.95.114]] 10:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

"Girlfriend" by Matthew Sweet doesn't remotely follow the narrative in the explanation, but could nevertheless be graphed as shown.[[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 10:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Why is "I Will Always Love You" higher on the Y axis than the X axis?? The title and chorus seem genuine to me, and the rationale for breaking up is "I'm not what you need." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.34.58|172.68.34.58]] 15:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I love the way this came out. Mad props to everyone who worked on the table summaries. Were LLMs employed? [[User:Liv2splain|Liv2splain]] ([[User talk:Liv2splain|talk]]) 18:31, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

:yes, and it made a mistake. Well, I made the mistake.In my prompt I was asking for a summary of the Song T-Rex from Katy Perry and chatGPT did neither complain nor correct - THAT is their mistake. And several people did not recognize even as it was obvious - including me. 🫣 --[[User:LaVe|LaVe]] ([[User talk:LaVe|talk]]) 23:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion the Y-Axis of "Girlfriend" does not fit Avril Lavigne's "Girlfriend", it should be closer to "Yes" than to "No". The lyrics include "I see the way you look at me [...] I know you talk about me all the time again and again".
If the video counts: The guy ends up without his girlfriend (red-haired Avril) and seems to always enjoy the company and a kiss of black-haired Avril. The video ends with him and blond-haired Avril disappearing into a bathroom stall. Whomever you see as the "I" in the song, black-haired or blond-haired Avril, he seems sorta interested in both, so a "Yes". [[Special:Contributions/172.71.134.31|172.71.134.31]] 18:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Idea: We could add a column for the year the song came out. It would be interesting to see the year distribution and if it clumps in the late 90s (when Randall was a teenager). [[User:Laser813|Laser813]] ([[User talk:Laser813|talk]]) 19:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

It needs a third (time) axis: in "You’re so vain", for example, there's the line "But you gave away the things you loved/And one of them was me" which suggests that the Warren Beatty^w^w male character at least USED to live the singer, and "when I was still quite naïve” might imply the feeling was once mutual, regardless of the current degree of indifference and/or active disdain. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.135.129|172.69.135.129]] 10:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:That's just the same issue as the Piña Colada, really. What you could do for those (and others) is trace a track leading up to the dot (probably, from whatever history the song narrative describes as having come from). And maybe a short dashed onwards line to where they hope/fear/want/expect the relationship to progress to. Could get busy. And would need (probably subjective) analysis of the full lyrics then work out how best to tweak it not to get a plate full of undifferentiatable spaghetti. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.111|172.71.178.111]] 11:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
:While both are past tense, it seems to me that "You're So Vain" is describing history (focused on how we got to the "now" of the song), while Piña Colada is presenting a narrative. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.40|172.69.247.40]] 05:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Something that could replace ''the Piña Colada song'' in the title-text: [https://youtu.be/e-ORhEE9VVg?si=6z7eIea6MglhkTPv Blank space - Taylor Swift] [[User:B_for_brain|B for brain]] ([[User_talk:B_for_brain|talk]]) ([https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg4bo-hj-mDyOOUp_Yp0pug youtube channel] [https://bforbrain.weebly.com/ wobsite (supposed to be a blag)] 20:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Created a [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1jmHBAybLJIULiBYMctN5R Spotify playlist] with above love songs. [[User:Shivank|Shivank]] ([[User_talk:Shivank|talk]]) 10:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

'Creep' really should be in the middle of the Y axis. We have no clue how the object of the narrator's affections views them - only that they hate themself! [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.161|172.70.85.161]] 12:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)