explain xkcd - User contributions [en]

Talk:3123: Canon

2025-08-03T23:08:40Z

Transgalactic:

👋[[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 17:14, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

I saw a post on reddit a week or two ago that described the how we use the term "kryptonite" to describe someone's weakness, then unironically asked what people thought Superman's Kryptonite would be.... [[Special:Contributions/136.226.60.109|136.226.60.109]]
:Wow, I never would've guessed what Superman's Kryptonite was! Seriously though, kryptonite has landed back on its original meaning too. [[User:Strontium|Strontium]] ([[User talk:Strontium|talk]]) 18:28, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
: cite: https://www.reddit.com/r/superman/comments/1jnh4d0/what_is_supermans_kryptonite/ -- [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 20:05, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if there are any examples of that in the wild or if Randall just made it up. [[User:Turquoise Hat|Turquoise Hat]] ([[User talk:Turquoise Hat|talk]]) 18:40, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
:I recall seeing someone unironically referring to Leipzig as "Napoleon's Waterloo". [[User:RegularSizedGuy|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy|talk]]) 14:59, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

Just checked; there is no Bible wiki on fandom.com. I am sad. (There is, however, a Christianity wiki.) [[Special:Contributions/136.226.19.82|136.226.19.82]] 19:49, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
:Correction: there ''is'' one; search just failed to turn it up for some reason: https://bible.fandom.com/wiki/Bible_Wiki [[Special:Contributions/136.226.19.82|136.226.19.82]] 19:53, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

There's now a paragraph on the word 'fandom'. I can't see how this is relevant to explaining the comic, and suggest deleting it. [[User:DKMell|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell|talk]]) 20:05, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
: the word is specifically mentioned by Cuball [[User:FaviFake|FaviFake]] ([[User talk:FaviFake|talk]]) 22:51, 1 August 2025 (UTC)
Reminds me of this old gem: [https://www.elon.edu/u/news/2020/03/31/how-covid-19-is-similar-to-the-viruses-trying-to-infect-your-computer/ How COVID-19 is similar to the viruses trying to infect your computer]. [[Special:Contributions/220.240.43.39|220.240.43.39]] 20:30, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

The history of "canon" from the explanation is inaccurate: Mocking the "Sherlock Holmes canon" already depended on the usage of the word for "literary canon" = the most important works of an author / genre / period / culture. "Canon" has been used with that meaning at least since 1768 [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0054.xml]. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 23:08, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

Talk:3123: Canon

2025-08-03T23:08:19Z

Transgalactic:

Talk:3089: Modern

2025-05-16T15:30:34Z

Transgalactic:

Hate to be that guy, but wow, it’s empty [[User:Broseph|Broseph]] ([[User talk:Broseph|talk]]) 19:04, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

This strip reminded me of the comments in [[3063]]. Historians / historiographers typically define (early) "modernity" to begin around 1500. {{w|early modernity}} [[Special:Contributions/172.71.182.126|172.71.182.126]] 19:12, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

A similar problem exists, where a recent version of the Bible is known as the New Revised Standard Version. It will be a bit awkward when it is not new, revised, or standard. [[User:BobcatInABox|BobcatInABox]] ([[User talk:BobcatInABox|talk]]) 19:38, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
: {{w|New_Revised_Standard_Version#NRSV_Updated_Edition_(NRSVue)|It's already happened.}} [[Special:Contributions/162.158.41.167|162.158.41.167]] 06:26, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:I'm assuming it (''and'' the NRSVue) is still at least a version, though. And one, or even both, also an edition. ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.68.229.139|172.68.229.139]] 08:04, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
::Tru dat. But the NRSV can no longer be considered "new" (assuming editorial and not, say, geological, time scales) or "standard" (that title has passed to the {{w|New_International_Version|NIV}}, at least as measured by sales and by usage in English-language Protestant denominations). As for "revised", the original Standard (= King James) Bible was first published in 1611, with the "Standard" revision in 1769. The "Revised [Standard] Version" debuted in 1881. The NRSV, 1989, and the NRSVue, 2017. On this trajectory, by the end of the century, AI will be producing a new version every 30 seconds or so. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.85|172.71.147.85]] 15:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:The US Military has a similar problem: naming a system "Next-Gen [X]" but then the "Next Gen" item eventually becomes the current generation, and is eventually moving towards being obsolete and you need a successor (next-next gen?).[[Special:Contributions/172.69.6.111|172.69.6.111]] 20:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
::I guess the phone companies got it right with the 3G, 4G, 5G naming. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 20:23, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
::: Except for that {{w|10G}} glitch. And Dilbert predicted people copyrighting "8G" years before that. [[Special:Contributions/104.23.172.75|104.23.172.75]] 20:34, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
::There is a (not ''always'' consistent) "nth generation" classification system that is quite developed. The F-22 Raptor is a 5th Generation fighter, for example, with the (next-)next-gen ones being designed for the next decade being 6th. Though, yes, "Next Gen" still pops up (currently the programs I know of are ''mostly'' aimed at the solutions for #6, of course). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.129|141.101.99.129]] 22:23, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
::See the Army's now-laughably-named "Command Post of the Future", which wasn't that futuristic even when it debuted in 2004. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.250.103|172.71.250.103]] 07:46, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Wasn't there an earlier strip describing a similar problem on Wikipedia edits, maybe tied to the {{w|recency bias}}? There's the idea that every more recent slice needs a new, relevant name. It also seems to work going backwards, where humanity's genus, tribe, subfamily, and family are "homo", "hominini", "homininae", and "hominidae" respectively. We seem to crave a name for every arbitrary slice that is relevant for a particular researcher. And now I'm thinking of Futurama's "New New York". I'm surprised there's not already a New New York somewhere. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.233.117|162.158.233.117]] 20:31, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
:Eventually, there'll be a [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/New_New_York New New New New New New New New New New New New New New New York]...
:Anyway, I actually live not far from a(nother) {{w|New York#United Kingdom|New York}}, and am also a regular visitor to (old) York. So I may not have been to New York, New York, on my travels, but I've got it covered on both sides. (I ''have'' been to both new Boston ''and'' the old one, but only been to the old Washington, both the original Richmond and its first copycat (but none of the US copycopyⁿcats), etc.) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.216.175|162.158.216.175]] 22:01, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

::Hmmm. I've a suspicion I know who you are.
::I'm gonna say...you ain't heavy? [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 22:16, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Ah, no. Sorry, I'm not aware of any fraternal relationship. Not just not with you, but not with anyone. ;) Nice to know there are potentially more of you out there, though.
:::I also forget where I think you're ''exactly'' from, from past information, but I do know that it's a different corner from me. Though I think you wisely left it vague, and I'm happy to be even vaguer (hence why I supplied multiple possibilities)... I think it's only rather specific (sort-of-)local knowledge that even let guess what more exacting info I ''think'' I know about you. West Riding, for starters, but I'm not going to narrow you down further. :p [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.134|172.70.86.134]] 22:38, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
::::Ah, no, it was not a suspected fraternal connection, though I imagined that phrasing would imply it – not being heavy was something of a shibboleet.
::::And yes – had there still been a West Riding, my origin would have been within it. [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 10:49, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
::I know where you live now /j [[User:Commercialegg|Commercialegg]] ([[User talk:Commercialegg|talk]]) 00:13, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:::...to within 3 million acres or so, sure... ...maybe! /jj [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.221|172.69.43.221]] 05:50, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:::: [[687]]. I'm surprised how often people confuse linear and areal dimensions. I think I've seen people use acres as a measure of distance twice in the last week. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.109.89|172.69.109.89]] 18:08, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:::: ? It's "somewhere within a nominal area of a given size", shirley? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.8|172.70.90.8]] 21:07, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
::::: Yep. An acre of spaghetti could be 4,000 km x 1 mm. "I know where you live within an acre" could mean "I know where you live within 4,000 km." That, multiplied by 3,000,000 takes you 80 AU away, well past the Kuiper Belt. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.90.30|172.71.90.30]] 22:41, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Where do I post site suggestions?¿?¿?¿?¿ [[User:Aprilfoolsupdate!|Aprilfoolsupdate!]] ([[User talk:Aprilfoolsupdate!|talk]]) 04:20, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:What kind of suggestion? (And, for that matter, what kind of site?!?) Though I would probably start by clicking on the Community Portal link in the side navbar over <- there (and up a bit?). Might also be worth seeing if your potential suggestion already has something like it, rather than add a new section the repeats one (or more) past subheader(s). Also might help you find which sub-page suits your particular input. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.221|172.69.43.221]] 05:50, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

I remember as a kid asking my parents: "Why does the New Testament look so old?". [[Special:Contributions/162.158.245.161|162.158.245.161]] 06:42, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
: In German it makes sense, sort of - "modern" can also be a verb, meaning "to rot" :-) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.245.137|162.158.245.137]] 06:55, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:Some Gideon-types (maybe not ''actual'' Gideons, but of the same mind) came to my school one day (possibly they did it every year for each new age of students, never checked) and did a bit of basic god-bothering stuff with us. Either separate from the actual Religious Education class (which might have had more abrahamic=>judeo-christian=>christian=>protestant stuff, at times, but actually ''did'' properly cover other religions and wider belief systems) or as a once-only replacement for it (adjourning from the usual classroom, at its usual time, and instead meeting these 'missonaries' in one of the non-classroom rooms).
:...anyway... we were given handy-sized NTs. (Probably I still have mine, somewhere, because I rarely get rid of any book, of ''any'' kind, but I know other classmates probably were happily scattering them to the four winds as soon as the fancy took them.) My most immediate impression was the disappointment that it was ''just'' the NT. Whatever I thought about the ultimate veracity of either (not much, even at that age), I already knew that all the actual exciting stuff was in the OT. All the 'New' stuff basically boils down to "Be excellent to each other, dudes!" (as paraphrased by Bill and Ted) and a mixed bag of minor peril and miscarriage of justice. Whereas the 'Old' bits has various cities being destroyed, various multigenerational soap-opera plots and ''two'' completely different explanations for how everything began! They don't write 'em like that any more. Well, they do, but between The Book Of Mormon (the Joseph Smith one, not the Broadway one) and the various works of L. Ron Hubbard ("Mission: Earth" was even more escapist than "Battlefield Earth", and would have been even easier to badly make into a movie!) there's a ''lot'' of variation. ;)
:Though given how much might have been lost in translation, maybe I also ought to try reading everythihg in the original Klingon... [[Special:Contributions/172.68.229.139|172.68.229.139]] 08:04, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Ever notice how the words modern and modem can resemble each other when presented in the correctly chosen typeface, point size and kerning? We could have had a 56k modern if we squinted sideways. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.30.251|172.71.30.251]] 11:56, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Me when the New Super Mario Bros. series is over a decade old at this point lmao. Also, not willing to delete Incase I'm wrong, but what is this bit about communism and fascism?[[Special:Contributions/172.69.70.13|172.69.70.13]] 12:30, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:I believe it's being suggested that these particular two 'different' philosophies (not necessarily, though, if one believes they just aimed for the same basic result from different directions) were developed in reaction to the more monarchical systems of government, both given impetus from the experiences of The Great War (though not just that) to create a ''different'' form of figurehead-dominated politics that was considered, by their proponents, a "modern" solution. Over time, various 'problems' were identified (not least WW2, that revealed Fascism's nature, though Communism temporarily ended up in a better position). Much of the rest of the world ended up moving on from the vestiges of 'traditional monarchy' over this time, too, but not the same way (and, arguably, with different problems - many still quite real or possibly getting worse). There are those who may think that Fascism/Communism actually could still work (perhaps if done ''properly''!), but the original eras of these are now more retro than modern so perhaps (unless you're good at rewriting history) not under those particularly poisoned names.
:Or so I understood it. Not sure I'd say it like that, or consider it an apt addition to this article, but then I'm not a professional (political-)historian and don't have the in-depth expertise to judge its accuracy in full. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.157|172.70.86.157]] 13:33, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

:: Both 'isms mentioned here have roots a fair bit older than The Great War. The bundle-of-sticks-ism is possibly the oldest form of governance there is, if you define it loosely. (Please note that that is more of a condemnation than endorsement.) --DW [[Special:Contributions/172.69.74.237|172.69.74.237]] 14:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Definitely (and I nearly mentioned that Germany copied Italy's model, while Japan joined in from a still Imperial perspective). Though the pressures of fighting WW1 catalysed Russia's revolution (mid-fight) and many other systems (e.g. Italy) developed both -isms to some degree or other; both the Red Flags and the Black Shirts were plentiful enough in Britain, at times, too, interbellum, arguably held off by Churchill (along with other far more dodgy things) before he even had to deal with the next coming war. Spain became the "rehersal" for the various factions. For post-Kaiser Germany, the resulting defeat plus post-Verseilles demands fuelled drives for ''both'' forms of 'socialism' (the 'national' type ending up in total control, now on an Italy+ track such that most people often forget poor old Benito's part in inspiring it), setting up circumstances for the next bout. Not sure that such things could have been avoided, without WW1, but it definitely forced matters and shaped the 'modern' world differently from how it might have done if the First Great War had only boiled over later. (With different personalities, a few of the same original errors, probably a smattering of more advanced mil-tech or lost opportunities to have learnt from earlier (less effective) wide-area weaponry/long-range weaponry against both enemy and civilian targets - a rich vein for alternate history!)
:::But I say this only to help with 5he "what is this about...?", which I took to mean not quite knowing how (in their time) they were considered modern answers to age-old questions, only to become different (and eventually dated) problems on the way to today's (still problematic) future. The old "those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" thing applies in spades, here... [[Special:Contributions/172.69.224.169|172.69.224.169]] 15:03, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

: I agree that seems out of place and not pertinent to the comic itself. It is true that those and other 'isms arose because of societal upheavals associated with various [adj]modern things, but that's trivially true of... almost everything. --DW [[Special:Contributions/172.69.74.237|172.69.74.237]] 14:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
: While this can be read into the current article, I think the overall feeling of the article on that issue goes in the wrong direction. [[User:Theanswertolifetheuniverseandeverything|Theanswertolifetheuniverseandeverything]] ([[User talk:Theanswertolifetheuniverseandeverything|talk]]) 15:22, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
::I ''guess'' that those phrases are there as a segue to explain post-modernism? But the wording is kinda janky and those 2 schools of thought may not be the best examples for this --anon [[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.56|162.158.79.56]] 17:41, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

: Yes, '''please delete the whole phrase''', "and evolved into Communism, and its counter Fascism" since that statement is altogether false. Communism and Fascism are both a form of Marxist totalitarianism. They only differ in implementation and not in ideology. Communism forbids all private ownership, while fascism allows only that private ownership that subjects itself to control by the state. Possibly, the whole section about labeling political movements unrelated to the comic since it doesn't match the categories and time periods depicted in the comic. I vote to take it all out. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 16:43, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
:: You are ''way'' off. A one-dimensional take on social structures like yours is rarely accurate. (I agree that the whole thing needed to be deleted cause it wasn't pertinent to the explanation, though.) [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Modern just means "current". I think the text makes it seem like the fact that the name "modern" as a technical term and the normal use of the word are different meanings of the same word is just a coincidence, as if the term "modern" was extended to refer to contemporary events from its use to describe contemporary philosophy and the like. Instead, "the fault", so to say, lies with those who used the word "modern" to describe the philosophy and the like in the first place. From what I can tell, "modern" does originally mean "current" or something close to it. To use it as a descriptor for things that will not stay "modern" is the ultimate cause.
: I disagree: The term "modern" is a modern phenomenon. The expectation that society "develops", "improves" or "progresses" in a linear way, and that whatever is "new", "novel", "innovative", etc. is likely better only emerged during modernity. Medieval Europe imagined the world as static, some cultures interpret it as circular (if you grew up thinking that progress is natural, think about how every human goes through life in a fundamentally similar way from birth to death, with each person all over again). Some think it's due to the rise of an anthropocentric world view (where you imagine that you shape the world in a significant way), some think it's due to capitalism (where the economy isn't based on maintaining life, but on maximizing the profits of those who own and invest capital). So if we still associate "modern" with "current, fashionable, chic, interesting, improved, good", that could just be a symptom that some things haven't changed much since the European 16th century. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

'''Correction of "postmodern" in the explanation:''' Postmodernism is a much more nuanced philosophical stance than "belief in progress is futile or harmful", though that's probably where you can pinpoint the transition from one era to the other best: the combined horror of the Nazis' industrial system of murder and the nuclear explosion on August 6th 1945 ended modernism. But postmodernism still believes in human development (though in a less linear, more wandering and tangled way), it's still strongly based on modern stances against aristocracy / class society / hereditary privileges, and just like modernism it certainly still tries to overcome blind faith in traditions. Anyone feeling up to writing a nice short sentence in the explanation? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't really see the problem myself. Surely once you're past 'pre-modern' you're just back to 'archaic' or something in the cycle? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.4|172.70.85.4]] 08:23, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:3022: Making Tea

2024-12-12T12:31:31Z

Transgalactic: please add science of flavour extraction

I wonder where [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party making it in Boston Harbor, at ambient temperature, at scale] would fit on this scale. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.206.162|172.70.206.162]] 04:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
: A little to the left of the microwave thing. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.186.252|162.158.186.252]] 05:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:: Oh, no, much further to the right. You stole our colony from us, set up some tinpot, pretended 'country' in its place, and you didn't even have the class to make a decent cup of tea first. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.205.93|12.68.205.93]] 06:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:: And, even if [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68085304 this guy] is right, ''way'' too much salt... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.130|172.70.91.130]] 07:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::: Soyuz nyerushimyy respublik svobodnik... [[User:DollarStoreBa'al|DollarStoreBa'al]] ([[User talk:DollarStoreBa'al|talk]]) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::: Well maybe if you didnt force us to buy discounted tea from you after fighting a war for us, we wouldn't be in this situation. [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 15:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::::: Yeah, a tiny island should not have that much control over a fractionable part of a continent [[User:Danger Kitty|Danger Kitty]] ([[User talk:Danger Kitty|talk]])
:::::: EXACTLY, it's not like you funded the voyages, sent supplies to the colonies, or protected us from the French, or anything. [[User:Apollo11|Apollo11]] ([[User talk:Apollo11|talk]]) 14:59, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
: I would like to as a british person to corroborate this, in the 80's my Dad visited the USA (he did go to florida) and still is complaining that the freshly boiled water wasn't poured directly onto the tea bag but was instead the tea bag and the hot water(now luke warm water) and bag was delivered separately!!! The delivery of freshly boiling water on to the bag is the major issue with microwaves, not the nucleation thing in my experience. Bear in mind I don't even actually like tea, still care enough to right this, but i'll be signing this anonymously to avoid shame being bought on my family and my family's familys. Murderous royals are a lot less popular the tea [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.227|108.162.245.227]]
::Thanks for pointing out that black tea leaves '''need boiling-hot water to release their full aroma''', so you'll need that, unless you're fine with an insipid brew. That's not "hard to pin down", it's a property of this type of tea leaf, as you can read here https://jingtea.com/journal/boiling-water-for-tea-myth-debunked. This super biased explanation needs correction, preferably by someone who knows about flavour extraction, chemistry, etc. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 12:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
:: I first visited the US in 1980. A friend who was with hate coffee and was horrified when he ordered tea that he got the water and the tea bag separately. When he suggested they add the water as soon as it was boiled, the wait staff thought he was joking. Many years later in Texas, a waiter asked me why I, a Brit, was drinking coffee, not tea. "You don't know how to make it," I replied. (In my house, the electric kettle and teapot sit next to each other on the kitchen worktop.)--[[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.135|172.70.160.135]] 09:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

When I make ramen, I put the measuring cup in the microwave. Fight me. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.167.87|162.158.167.87]] 05:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
: On behalf of the British Empire: whateva. [[User:Kev|Kev]] ([[User talk:Kev|talk]]) 18:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

"...to the point virtually every home has an electric tea kettle as a standard appliance". If I'm reading it correctly, this and the comic suggests we (though not I, as I'm not a tea-drinker) make tea ''in the electric kettle''. Electric tea-urns, yes, or maybe a setup like a samovar. But, generally, the kettle itself (and, so far as I'm aware, always with an electric kettle) is used to heat the water, which you then pour into the tea''pot'' into which the requisite number of tealeaves/teabags are also put to steep. (Or, for the lazy way, into the mug-with-teabag.) I wouldn't be able to use my electric kettle to (for example) make my instant mashed-potato into the actual mash, if I'd have regularly used it to mash tea. Or top up the boiling saucepan that I'd realised I'd not quite enough water in to cover the pasta/vegetables/whatever. Or to easily add nust a little more heat (with less new water) to the washing-up bowl than would be possible from the hot tap, back to as hot as possible without scalding me. – Whether intentional or not, I suspect Randall has the role of kettle and teapot mixed up, and so (without the intent to parody) has the editor who wrote the above. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.135|172.70.160.135]] 05:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
: Agree, we make tea in a mug using water from a kettle. I'd be furious if an American made tea in my kettle, how will I then make up my instant Nescafe? [[User:Kev|Kev]] ([[User talk:Kev|talk]]) 18:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the section on 'Boiling the water in a pot' refers to a teapot - I think it means boiling the water in a pot on the hob, and then making tea with it (in a pot/mug). [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.27|172.69.195.27]] 07:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:I agree, but I also think there's a language issue with the use of pot vs. pan that makes things more confusing. I think there are several types of cookware that Americans call pot and British call pan. So British would not say they boil water in a pot but rather in a saucepan (if there's no kettle available of course). [[User:Mtcv|Mtcv]] ([[User talk:Mtcv|talk]]) 09:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I (as Brit) am uncommon in using an electric filter coffee machine to make tea (two bags in what is supposed to be the coffee filter). Set up, press the button and come back to a not jug of fresh tea which is not stewed. If later, the hot plate has shut off and it is cold, you can zap it in a mug in the microwave. [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 08:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
: As another brit, what? I do not understand the mechanics of this, please elaborate. Additionally, my understanding is that the water would be *briefly acquainted* with the tea, thus would be a poor facsimile of "tea" and would rather be closer to something the americans would attempt. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.126|141.101.99.126]] 11:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I did say 'uncommon' but Kenwood made a coffee/tea machine to do this. It sounds like it shouldn't work, but 167 below has the basics right. [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 09:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
::I'm guessing the water would drip on to the teabags, then soak all the way through them and drip out into the jug, without allowing sufficient to accumulate that it would run straight out without passing fully through the bag. It's an intriguing idea. But most definitely wrong.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.239|172.70.85.239]] 17:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Your guess is right. It works because the (finely cut) leaves are exposed to boiling hot water for a few minutes, you wouldn't drink any before you have half a jug and that is quite 'bright'. Better than a teabag in a mug! Want it stronger, use more bags. Big advantage - you set it up, press button, come back in 5 to 25 minutes and your tea is waiting, including a second mug, not and not stewed. Wrong - but works so right. [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 09:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yMMTVVJI4c Technology Connections]! [[Special:Contributions/141.101.109.167|141.101.109.167]] 09:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You Westerners have literally no idea how to make proper, good tea! SMH [[User:TPS|TPS]] ([[User talk:TPS|talk]]) 13:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

As a Brit who grew up in sight of the Yorkshire Tea factory – and worked there on occasion – and having travelled very widely around the world – including in the US – I feel I'm supposed to have an opinion. However, I have ''never'' encountered the microwaving of water as mentioned here, and I would not object to it as supposedly problematic for tea-quality reasons. I'd object for reasons of common sense. What mystifies me is the idea that kettles are tea-specific. They are for heating water, not making tea. Coffee uses hot water. Pasta, rice and potatoes use hot water. Peas, carrots, cabbage, sweetcorn...

Baking bread often involves a pan of steaming water in the oven.

"But I can boil water in a pan for cooking pasta or vegetables."

Yes, but you'll be waiting a l-o-o-o-ng time. I'll heat my water in the kettle, pour it into the now-hot pan, cook my pasta, and I'll be eating before your water is boiling.

A kettle is not a tea-making item any more than a frying pan is an omelette-making item; tea is simply one of the things you can make with water from a kettle. Hot water is a basic civilised human commodity, predating recorded history. That we should live in a mechanised world, and the Consumer Nation doesn't have water-boiling appliances as standard (saying instead "I don't have a kettle because I don't drink tea") is ludicrous.

Using a microwave rather than buying a kettle is a bit like not buying a hammer for driving in nails because you've got a big pair of pliers that will do. Sure, they're heavy lumps of metal than live in your toolbag, but they're not the right thing.

The Brits, incidentally, are not tea lovers. They are prolific consumers of awful tea that actual tea lovers wouldn't use for cleaning their drains. The most enthusiastic tea enthusiasts I've ever met were from Maryland.

It's all just social ceremony in the UK. Milk first, tea first, must use a saucer, must use a pot...tea is a British religion, not a British drink. [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 14:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
: How long does it take you to boil water for, let's say enough water for four people's worth of pasta, using an electric kettle? I reckon that's about 4 liters of water? I'm genuinely curious. Now also double the time, because as mentioned in the explanation, American outlets produce half the power of British outlets. And let me not fail to mention that almost all American homes have either special higher power outlets for stoves or gas powered stoves, and frequently have special high-power outlets for microwaves as well. 4 liters of water to boil takes about 5-6 minutes on a low-end American stove, about 3-4 minutes on a gas stove, and about 2 minutes on an induction stove. None of which strikes me as a particularly long time, especially when the most popular varieties of pasta in America all need to be boiled for 8+ minutes. How does this compare to twice the length of time as your electric kettle? Because if your Electric Kettle actually allows you to be eating your pasta before our water has even boiled, that would require your kettle to boil water in around -2min to -6min. And if your electric kettle can time travel, then that is truly an astonishing device. Honestly my takeaway from this is that British Stoves must be apparently heated by a single candle if "boiling water for pasta" is considered to take a "l-o-o-o-ng time". {{unsigned ip|162.158.126.161|21:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)}}

I wonder what the Brits would feel about repurposing a single-cup coffee maker. These days, I usually put a tea bag in a mug and place it in a Keurig machine and run it (without a K-cup, of course) to deliver the hot water. Probably the wrong temperature, but fast and easy and the result is good enough. [[User:Shamino|Shamino]] ([[User talk:Shamino|talk]]) 14:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Would any British person care to evaluate my tea making practices? Boil water in electric kettle. Pour water over teabag, allow to steep, remove teabag. Add sugar and ice cubes. [[User:RegularSizedGuy|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy|talk]]) 15:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:...well, seems a fairly standard "making one mug of tea for oneself" process. It lacks a milk-adding stage (thus no arguments about whether before or after the water). Removing the teabag at that point probably means it's not going to become a Builders' Brew, which is your choicd. Sugar is ok. And... Waitwhat... ''Ice Cubes?!?'' ...can I get back to you on that? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.163|172.70.162.163]] 17:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I can confirm (by inadvertent experiments conducted on flatmates) that they indeed do not like tea being make in the kettle. What really makes them angry though is making coffee in the teapot. It ruins the taste of the teapot forever apparently. There is also a faction that insists that a teapot should never be washed, and washing it invokes a lesser anger.[[User:Gopher|Gopher]] ([[User talk:Gopher|talk]]) 15:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:This is a source of tension in our house, where we are one washer and one non-washer![[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.243|141.101.98.243]] 09:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

On rare occasions where I don't have a kettle available, I use a microwave oven to boil water for tea. But it doesn't look and taste quite the same, and often leaves an ugly foam at the surface when the tea bag is added. This phenomenon is investigated here: https://cooking.stackexchange.com/a/22264. So the British might be right... Disclaimer: I'm neither from the UK nor from the US. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.68.126|172.69.68.126]] 16:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

There is a [https://www.tumblr.com/elodieunderglass/669449994039853056/wizardlyghost-silverjirachi-pidoop tumblr thread] about the topic of teamaking in microwaves, kettles, etc. Funnily enough it showed up in my Instagram reels feed just a few hours before this comic was posted. I was thinking perhaps Randall saw it too and was inspired by it? Both of them have to deal with the different ways of making tea and how "absurd" or "unconventional" (etc.) they are. Even if Randall didn't have it in mind, it's certainly a funny little coincidence. [[User:Pie Guy|Pie Guy]] ([[User talk:Pie Guy|talk]]) 16:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing my occasional summertime practice of filling a gallon jar with water and lots of tea bags, setting it on the back porch in the sun for a few hours until the water turns dark brown, then putting the whole thing in the refrigerator and later drinking it over ice would be toward the more angry end of the spectrum.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.126.204|172.70.126.204]] 16:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Pat
:I think the "in the sun for a few hours" part might just be too incomprehensible to most of us, here in Britain. If we ''have'' a few hours of sun (and we're not abroad and deliberately sunburning ourselves on the beach/beside the pool in our week at the Costa Lotta budget-all-inclusivs holiday) then we're either fuming at our workdesks complaining about the louts stripping down to their shirtsleeves and splashing in the town-centre fountains or we're on our lunch-break and we ''are'' the louts stripping down to our shirtsleeves and splashing in the town-centre fountains. In neither case would sun-stewed tea be a priority. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.163|172.70.162.163]] 17:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it's worth to mention how dangerous it is to boil water in a microwave. https://tastecooking.com/dangerous-microwave-water/
[[User:Mestafais|Mestafais]] ([[User talk:Mestafais|talk]]) 15:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:I have a >5 inch burn scar on my forearm, to arrest to that. [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 14:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
::I know most Brits would consider it criminal, but I didn't realise you could actually be arrested for it.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.243|141.101.98.243]] 09:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

There are several comics with unmarked scales. It would be interesting if the descriptions started using pixels to point where each mark is along the line. As a rough estimate, the four points mentioned here are at X-values: 90px, 115px, 345px, and 645px, indicating that the pot method is 10% as infuriating as the chalice method - or that making tea in a pot ten times would be equally as infuriating as making it once in a chalice (at least, assuming the kettle method causes zero furons. I know of {{w|hedons and dolors}}. I guess 'furons' are a unit of fury, right? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.46.236|172.70.46.236]] 16:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Interesting to see the interest in editing this. Had a quick check of the last ten comics, looking at the number of edits made in the first 14 hours (the exact time this page has been around, as of me starting the check) and in total, and extrapolated to edits/day (in the case of total edits, both just to the latest edit and right up to 'now'). Thought it'd be interesting to give you my results (assuming I tallied/etc correctly)...
*3022 - 14hr: '''61''' ('''105'''/day); Total: 61 ('''105/day...''')
*3021 - 14hr: 23 (39/day); Total: 39 (11/day -> 10/day)
*3020 - 14hr: 22 (38/day); Total: 36 (10/day -> 6/day)
*3019 - 14hr: 28 (48/day); Total: 54 (17/day -> 7/day)
*3018 - 14hr: 14 (24/day); Total: 48 (4/day -> 4/day)
*3017 - 14hr: 29 (50/day); Total: 33 (32/day -> 3/day)
*3016 - 14hr: 28 (48/day); Total: 46 (4/day -> 3/day)
*3015 - 14hr: 20 (32/day); Total: '''83''' (5/day -> 5/day)
*3014 - 14hr: 40 (69/day); Total: 66 (16/day -> 3/day)
*3013 - 14hr: 36 (61/day); Total: 68 (3/day -> 3/day)
...of course, the first 14 hours probably biases to British readers/editors, and it was too fiddly to add up ''|bytes changed per edit|'' as a more useful metric than mere number of pokes. But quite a bit of interest we already have here. More edits in fourteen hours than any other article less than fourteen (indeed, 17!) days old... ;) Seems to have really hit a mark, this subject! [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.201|172.69.195.201]] 19:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:This one is super weird. I may be weirdness incarnate... but... [[User:Maybe Bill Cipher|An anonymous Gravity Falls expert]] ([[User talk:Maybe Bill Cipher|talk]]) 19:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:Well obviously. I mean this one ''really'' matters![[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.23|141.101.98.23]] 08:52, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I would argue that the more pessimistic interpretation of the two low-end options makes sense, rather than the more generous versions offered in the current explanation. I think the first one does literally mean making tea in the kettle, and the second one does mean boiling water in a teapot. Making tea *using* a kettle isn't anything to get mad about, it's the default practice. That should put it at the zero point of the line, but it isn't, it's to the right. On the other hand, obviously making tea *in* the kettle would incite a modest amount of rage (on the scale of zero to microwaving a mug), and it makes sense that boiling water in a teapot would incite about 50% more, as shown.[[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.160|172.69.134.160]] 19:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
: An American making tea in the correct way by boiling water in the kettle and then pouring that into a teapot with the tea would still probably conspire to make it badly and make the Brit angry. And Brits really do get quite upset about the idea of tea made with water boiled in a stovetop pan.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.23|141.101.98.23]] 08:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

There is a standard for making tea, ISO 3103: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3103, and apparently from the Royal Society of Chemistry.
And, of course, it must be really hot for in infinite improbability drive to work properly.
[[User:Lordpishky|Lordpishky]] ([[User talk:Lordpishky|talk]]) 20:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

All this blather and not one bit about that quintessential Kiwi staple, [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gumboot_tea gumboot tea]. Boil the kettle (about the size of a Dutch oven), throw in handfuls of leaf black tea, and let it sit until consumed. Reheat as needed. One sip, and the source of the Commonwealth aversion to the insane Yankee habit of drinking tea black is immediately apparent. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.123.8|172.70.123.8]] 20:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

So, I have a Quooker that boils my water. Add tea (leaves)... done. But *don't* add milk, please.... spoil... {{unsigned|Palmpje|20:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)}}

''Ultimately, the real difference comes down to convenience: In the USA, the standard voltage for electric appliances (including an electric kettle) is 120 volts, while it is twice that (240 volts in practice, though nominally 230V) in the UK. Since the amperage for an electric kettle is the the same in both countries (15 amps), this means that an equivalent kettle in the UK has twice the power (3.2kw versus 1.6kw), and can heat the water in a fraction of the time. Meanwhile, a standard microwave has a similar power in both countries (from 700 to 1000 watts), for reasons unrelated to the supply voltage it is equipped to use. Therefore, heating a small cup in a microwave might take a few moments longer than a kettle in the USA, but is many times slower to wait for compared to using an electric kettle in the UK.'' Electric kettles are a bit faster in the UK due to the voltage difference, but it's not that much and I highly doubt speed is the main concern here. The main 'convenience' difference between boiling water in a kettle vs a microwave is quantity: Brits usually don't just make one cup/mug of tea! On the rare occasion Americans drink tea, it's more often just the one person drinking one cup, making a microwave a convenient choice.[[Special:Contributions/162.158.233.90|162.158.233.90]] 21:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Add in some [https://www.foodandwine.com/why-you-should-add-salt-to-tea-8549735 salt]! '''[[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]][[User talk:42.book.addict|Talk to me!]]''' 21:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not about voltage. They use different gauge heater wire to get the Watts wanted/allowed.

The classic UK plug is nominal 13 Amps. (The circuits may be nominal 16A but there is now better insulation than in 1949.) At 230 Volts that would be 3KW (near enuff). That will be the "legal numbers". At 240V it may be 3,250W true. OTOH a 10V sag might be expected in all but the poshest wall-wiring.

amazon.co.uk sells kettles nearly all rated 3KW. Exceptions are Greepas at 1800W ("However, some customers have reported that it's very slow to boil"); also Philips 2200W, Daewoo 1400W, and OLEGA 1500W 'Fast Boiling'.

OTOH!!

On Amazon US site nearly all kettles are 1500W, a few lower like 1100W. At assumed 120V 1500W is 12.5Amps. 15Amp circuits are still common in older houses (despite changes in 1960s) but we supposed to de-rate for 'long-running' (not clearly specified in old code) so 12 Amps is in a ballpark.

Note that all US kettles are lower power than all but the tamest UK kettles. Essentially half power.

And IIRC, the 13/16A rating which allows super-power kettles in the UK was not for tea but for "electric fire", room heat. In post-War rebuilding, smokey coal was already depreciated in cities, steam plumbing and chimneys are expensive. Copper wire is costly too, but you "have" to have electric, and low-cost plans like ring-main were investigated.
[[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 22:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

"accept that tea-appropriate boiling water can be obtained directly from the sink's plumbing" - unless it comes out literally at boiling temperature, it isn't tea appropriate. I live in France now, and order catering bags of tea from Amazon because French tea is dismally awful, not helped at all by this fairly widespread belief that black tea steeps at 60C. When I share tea bags with friends, I have to keep reminding them, boiling! Boiling! So, see, there are worse things than using a microwave to heat the water... [[Special:Contributions/172.71.126.208|172.71.126.208]] 06:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:Not boiling - OFF boiling. Higher than 60C, yes, but if you put actually boiling water straight on to the tea (or worse, boil the water with the tea in it), that's at least as bad. (And how far off the boil exactly depends on the type of tea.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.22|141.101.98.22]] 09:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

What's up with the "We want to ensure'''[sic]''' the good people of the U.K"?
I really can't see the US Embassy insuring them for any amount, so what gives? [[User:Ryden|Ryden]] ([[User talk:Ryden|talk]]) 12:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:Came here to make the same note. “Ensure” is not misspelled, why is it marked with “[sic]”? [[User:Dúthomhas|Dúthomhas]] ([[User talk:Dúthomhas|talk]]) 12:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
::It's the wrong word entirely for the longer sentence. They perhaps wished to ''assure'' the good people, etc... "Ensure" means to "check and fix" something, in the way this is connected to "the good people" (implying that ''they'' would be changed to deal with any discrepancy of expectations), but this reading also goes wrong by the "that".
::In the sense of making a pledge (probably the actual intent), the structure is all wrong and probably was hastily reworded from a different narrative path, but left half-and-half and not making sense. My most minimal rewording for this would be "We want to ensure to the good people of the U.K. that ...", but it still reads very awkwardly. Perhaps it always made more sense to the average 'Merkin (c.f. "write me" instead of "write to me"), but I still would have written "assure" (as attempt to be comforting) or "pledge to" (for a more fervent sincerity of positive action).
::And to "insure" (for British English) is different yet again. While not working at all in the full sentence, it would start to suggest the actual possibility of such wrongness happening, but with the promise of monetary (or other) compensation if it does. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.149|141.101.98.149]] 15:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Question: Does the obsession with tea apply to all of Britain equally? E.g. are the Scottish just as stereotypicly known for loving tea as the English? This comic immediately brings Arthur Dent to my mind, and he's Very English Indeed. ("A liquid almost but not quite entirely unlike tea" is missing somewhere in the left third of the comic. :) --an intrigued German [[Special:Contributions/172.71.148.103|172.71.148.103]] 14:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:The four nations probably have had a similar outlook, but everyone may have had different social reasons. Tea-totalling perhaps was the initial driver in the more methodist corners, to get working people not to drink too much beer/cider/gin. The high social status version of regency ladies. It then sort of met in the middle by the time of the tea-ladies trolleying around refreshments to boardrooms and factory floors alike, in the same building.
:For WW2, the British government's demand for tea supplies was at least as important as ammunition. All British tanks apparently had (and continue to have) a hot-water boiler in the crew comparatment (not just for tea, but, probably the main thing at times). Official worries about tea [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7382750.stm lasted beyond that era].
:Generalising for everyone ''now'' is probably wrong, but visiting elderly relatives all over the UK, I'd ''always'' be passed a cup of tea (and a plate of cakes, or biscuits, placed temptingly close at hand). A pity that I never really liked tea (the cakes/biscuits are a bonus and a mitigating factor, but politeness demands that I throttle back my desires in that direction). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.149|141.101.98.149]] 15:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:If we're talking about the British Isles, it's probably actually the Irish who take the crown for the highest concentration of tea in the bloodstream, even though the stereotype is most commonly associated with the English / the UK.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.242|141.101.98.242]] 09:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Boy, they ''really'' get mad when you microwave the Chalice. [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 14:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:I think putting metal in the microwave is probably frowned upon worldwide. (Unless you're an ex-Navy Seal and cook who has found your ship taken over by mercenaries with a mad plan. Then go ahead.) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.119|162.158.74.119]] 16:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I find that Brits really hate it when you bring up the concept of sweet tea, during the summer my family would fill up a jug with water add some tea bags then leave it on the porch over night. [[User:Resign|Resign]] ([[User talk:Resign|talk]]) 07:35, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

This is the most comprehensively explained comic in a while 😂 I guess there are a lot of passionate tea-makers around here. As a non-tea-drinker living in a Commonwealth country, I have definitely heard the outrageous stereotype that Americans microwave their water. Definitely practical when you don't own a kettle, but slow when brewing for a group. [[User:Alcatraz ii|Alcatraz ii]] ([[User talk:Alcatraz ii|talk]]) 08:07, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Would the small metal piece that sticks together the label of the teabag at the end of the string be an issue when microwaved (with the water or seperately)? Or is too small for that? (I know not all teabags have that, especially british "black tea" often comes in packages without string, but my usual tea does have it...) --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 08:59, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3013: Kedging Cannon

2024-11-19T11:12:23Z

Transgalactic:

First? [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Good essay on real-life (or this-world) kedging-- http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips/the-lost-art-of-kedging-how-to-set-a-kedge-anchor/ [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

:Nice. I think I managed to somehow get in first (before I logged in); first time I've done so, so apologies for not knowing all the conventions. I think the title text is the main non-obvious thing, since the simile between a windmill's mechanical function and that of tacking seems clearly intentional,but I'm sure that could be edited to be clearer than my hasty writup. [[User:Mneme|Mneme]] ([[User talk:Mneme|talk]]) 02:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

For a brief, brief, moment, my brain failed to swap in and dredge up the memory of what kedging was, and I wondered if they were trying to use the aft cannon as a weak propulsion mechanism (hey, if it was a spacecraft…). And then I remembered what kedigng was and—DUH! [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 02:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

If it wasn't for kedging, I probably wouldn't be able to make it all the way through November. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.133|108.162.245.133]] 04:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
:Ha ha now exactly what you mean. The three longest month of the year are November November November... :-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
::Having a certain number of winches helps. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.92|172.68.23.92]] 10:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wow, whoever wrote the Speed and Economic Analysis section, you are amazing! [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.135|172.71.98.135]] 05:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
:Sadly is was done by an anonymous IP address... But cool analysis. Have no idea what he actually calculates or if it is correct though ;-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
::The system described doesn't need two cannons, just two anchors and winches for continuous operation. As something of an anonymous IP address editor myself, I am checking the math and intend to parameterize the assumptions for different size boats, different headwinds, and other different parameters. If I am successful, I will log in to upload a graph showing when cannon kedging is superior (if it ever is....) [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.92|172.68.23.92]] 10:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've got a strong hunch that this comic is about a captain who fails to take into account '''recoil / conservation of momentum''', which is a frequent mistake.
The cannon propels the anchor with great force, but, as it is connected to the ship, the ship is pushed back with the same force (minus some heat losses) ''before the anchor can settle''. Therefore, in this setup the ship will only move forward at all if the anchor ends up at a greater horizontal distance from the ship's original position than the distance between the ship's original and post-cannonshot positions.
The third panel, where the ship is drawn further to the left, indicates that the setback is significant and the ship only moves back and forth in the same place. Like, it ''literally'' takes forever. The title text is a hint: Only if the captain manages to harness a source of power that is independent from the vessel's movement (for example: wind from the wrong direction) this cannon will have any propagating effect - using this power for the winch, however, is just as futile as the kedging cannon itself.
For manual kedging, people heave the anchor to a boat and row out to a drop site, so it's not an issue.
Or am I missing something? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 11:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3013: Kedging Cannon

2024-11-19T11:09:48Z

Transgalactic:

First? [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Good essay on real-life (or this-world) kedging-- http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips/the-lost-art-of-kedging-how-to-set-a-kedge-anchor/ [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

:Nice. I think I managed to somehow get in first (before I logged in); first time I've done so, so apologies for not knowing all the conventions. I think the title text is the main non-obvious thing, since the simile between a windmill's mechanical function and that of tacking seems clearly intentional,but I'm sure that could be edited to be clearer than my hasty writup. [[User:Mneme|Mneme]] ([[User talk:Mneme|talk]]) 02:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

For a brief, brief, moment, my brain failed to swap in and dredge up the memory of what kedging was, and I wondered if they were trying to use the aft cannon as a weak propulsion mechanism (hey, if it was a spacecraft…). And then I remembered what kedigng was and—DUH! [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 02:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

If it wasn't for kedging, I probably wouldn't be able to make it all the way through November. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.133|108.162.245.133]] 04:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
:Ha ha now exactly what you mean. The three longest month of the year are November November November... :-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
::Having a certain number of winches helps. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.92|172.68.23.92]] 10:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wow, whoever wrote the Speed and Economic Analysis section, you are amazing! [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.135|172.71.98.135]] 05:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
:Sadly is was done by an anonymous IP address... But cool analysis. Have no idea what he actually calculates or if it is correct though ;-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
::The system described doesn't need two cannons, just two anchors and winches for continuous operation. As something of an anonymous IP address editor myself, I am checking the math and intend to parameterize the assumptions for different size boats, different headwinds, and other different parameters. If I am successful, I will log in to upload a graph showing when cannon kedging is superior (if it ever is....) [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.92|172.68.23.92]] 10:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've got a strong hunch that this comic is about a captain who fails to take into account '''recoil / conservation of momentum''', which is a frequent mistake.
The cannon propels the anchor with great force, but, as it is connected to the ship, the ship is pushed back with the same force (minus some heat losses) ''before the anchor can settle''. Therefore, in this setup the ship will only move forward at all if the anchor ends up at a greater horizontal distance from the ship's original position than the distance between the ship's original and post-cannonshot positions.
The third panel, where the ship is drawn further to the left, indicates that the setback is significant and the ship only moves back and forth in the same place. Like, it ''literally'' takes forever. The title text is a hint: Only if the captain manages to harness a source of power that is independent from the vessel's movement (for example: wind from the wrong direction) this cannon will have any propagating effect - using this power for the winch, however, is just as futile as the kedging cannon itself.
For manual kedging, the proportion between the length of the anchor chain and the setback of the ship is somewhat different, and the muscles of the sailors do most of the work of dealing with recoil.
Or am I missing something? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 11:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3013: Kedging Cannon

2024-11-19T11:07:30Z

Transgalactic: recoil

First? [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Good essay on real-life (or this-world) kedging-- http://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/cruising-tips/the-lost-art-of-kedging-how-to-set-a-kedge-anchor/ [[User:PRR|PRR]] ([[User talk:PRR|talk]]) 02:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

:Nice. I think I managed to somehow get in first (before I logged in); first time I've done so, so apologies for not knowing all the conventions. I think the title text is the main non-obvious thing, since the simile between a windmill's mechanical function and that of tacking seems clearly intentional,but I'm sure that could be edited to be clearer than my hasty writup. [[User:Mneme|Mneme]] ([[User talk:Mneme|talk]]) 02:10, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

For a brief, brief, moment, my brain failed to swap in and dredge up the memory of what kedging was, and I wondered if they were trying to use the aft cannon as a weak propulsion mechanism (hey, if it was a spacecraft…). And then I remembered what kedigng was and—DUH! [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 02:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

If it wasn't for kedging, I probably wouldn't be able to make it all the way through November. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.133|108.162.245.133]] 04:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
:Ha ha now exactly what you mean. The three longest month of the year are November November November... :-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
::Having a certain number of winches helps. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.92|172.68.23.92]] 10:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wow, whoever wrote the Speed and Economic Analysis section, you are amazing! [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.135|172.71.98.135]] 05:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
:Sadly is was done by an anonymous IP address... But cool analysis. Have no idea what he actually calculates or if it is correct though ;-) --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 10:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
::The system described doesn't need two cannons, just two anchors and winches for continuous operation. As something of an anonymous IP address editor myself, I am checking the math and intend to parameterize the assumptions for different size boats, different headwinds, and other different parameters. If I am successful, I will log in to upload a graph showing when cannon kedging is superior (if it ever is....) [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.92|172.68.23.92]] 10:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've got a strong hunch that this comic is about a captain who fails to take into account '''recoil / conservation of momentum''', which is a frequent mistake.
The cannon propels the anchor with great force, but, as it is connected to the ship, the ship is pushed back with the same force (minus some heat losses) ''before the anchor can settle''. Therefore, in this setup the ship will only move forward at all if the anchor ends up at a greater horizontal distance from the ship's original position than the distance between the ship's original and post-cannonshot positions.
The third panel, where the ship is drawn further to the left, indicates that the setback is significant and the ship only moves back and forth in the same place. Like, it ''literally'' takes forever. The title text is key: Only if the captain manages to use a source of power that is independent from the vessel's movement (for example: wind from the wrong direction) this cannon will have any propagating effect. For manual kedging, the proportion between the length of the anchor chain and the setback of the ship is somewhat different, and the muscles of the sailors do most of the work of dealing with recoil.
Or am I missing something? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 11:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3011: Europa Clipper

2024-11-14T16:34:18Z

Transgalactic:

I'm not brave enough to actually add an explanation myself, quite yet, but ... I guess this is a reference to the fact(?) that Europa looks a bit like a creme brulee', when viewed from space? https://science.nasa.gov/jupiter/moons/europa/ It does look tasty ... :) [[User:ModelD|ModelD]] ([[User talk:ModelD|talk]]) 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:I suspect it's more due to the need to drill through a couple miles of ice to get to the ocean; much like breaking through the sugar crust on a creme broule! [[User:Seebert|Seebert]] ([[User talk:Seebert|talk]]) 13:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to the people at 9AM Post things on another website to try and explain XKCD Comics. -Forgotten_Mail {{unsigned ip|172.69.33.177|13:30, 13 November 2024}}

The comically large spoon!!!!!!!!!! I love those. -[[User:Psychoticpotato|P?sych??otic?pot??at???o ]] ([[User talk:Psychoticpotato|talk]]) 16:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
: Don't be sucked in! Protect yourself! https://rathergood.com/2017/02/10/spoonguard/ [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.105|141.101.99.105]] 10:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the "Crème brûlée is from France, France is in Europe, the moon is called Europa" connection is a bit of a stretch...? [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 18:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
: Eh, it's the same etymology. --[[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.230|172.69.134.230]] 11:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:: The issue of the continent and the moon coming from the same classical source (for different reasons) rather stretches the link between the dish (from the country, from the country's region/continent, from the region of Greece, ''possibly'' from the pantheon) and the moon (directly from the pantheon). I agree with the 'stretch' assessment. You can probably find easier and more plausible (but wrong) links worth alluding to than that, which relies upon several steps and a ''possible'' polysemic pair of original links. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.58.45|172.70.58.45]] 12:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::From an American perspective, Europe might seem like a distant, mysterious place that you might want to send a probe to to gather interesting information, and also somewhere that crème brûlée comes from. It's also potentially confusable (by the easily confused) with Europa. That seems like a reasonable enough connection to make to me. The mention of France is essentially by the by.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.26.107|172.71.26.107]] 12:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::It keeps getting said that "Europa is named after Europe", '''which is not correct''' (etymology, BTW, not entomology). I shall have to re-restore some other changes made to the same paragraph in rapid succession whilst I was trying to explain this. Bear with me. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.195|172.70.160.195]] 14:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::...You don't care, do you. You just keep putting it back in. SMH. Have fun. Someone else will probably be along to correct you ''again'' later. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.68.92|141.101.68.92]] 15:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

"only a spoonful" moment 💔 [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 19:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone should add a reference to XKCD's previous mention of a Planetary Protection Officer: https://what-if.xkcd.com/117/ [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.221|162.158.42.221]] 00:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

JUICE mentioned!!! cracker ham cheese cracker ham cheese cracker [[User:N-eh|N-eh]] ([[User talk:N-eh|talk]]) 07:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is a list from NASA about spacecraft instrument deployment failures, they are remarkably frequent: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20210020397/downloads/Alphonzo%20Stewart-%20Final%20Paper.pdf [[Special:Contributions/162.158.19.50|162.158.19.50]] 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to have a conversation about how the insertion orbit plan is so chaotic that there is a significant chance that the probe might crash in to and pierce the crust of Europa. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.187.56|162.158.187.56]] 14:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:...and if so, what's the likelihood of hitting just the right angle to scrape off a tasty bit with that spoon? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 16:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
::What would you like it to be? I can't step on butterflies, but I can certainly act according to the purest form of free will by strapping a noise bridge diode to my corpus callosum. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.83|108.162.246.83]] 16:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:Well we just need Elon to lock in the plan that if it crashes then it automatically becomes a sample return mission, and the first SolarCity sales rep to break out +150% of their quota gets to be the one to crash it. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.130|162.158.42.130]] 15:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I can ''not'' believe I got ChatGPT to make this for me:
{{cot|You have been warned}}

Europa was this smart, ambitious woman just trying to make it out there in the Mediterranean startup scene. She had her plans, her own thing going on, some solid friends, and a bright future. She wasn’t looking for anything too complicated; she just wanted to keep her options open and figure out her next big move.

Enter Zeus. Now, picture him as that intense CEO type—big, powerful, kind of legendary for his influence (and his *questionable* reputation). He’s been around the block a few times, always looking for the next exciting project or, well… person. Zeus saw Europa, and she was exactly his type: sharp, resourceful, had a lot of potential. He was like, "Yeah, I need *that* in my portfolio."

But Zeus was a little extra with his tactics. Instead of just, you know, scheduling a coffee chat or reaching out on LinkedIn like a normal person, he came up with this elaborate scheme. He disguised himself as this beautiful white bull (yeah, Zeus was *that* guy who would make things way more complicated than necessary). He wandered down to the shore near Europa and her friends, looking majestic and mysterious, and let her come to him.

Europa, understandably, was like, "This bull is kind of weirdly friendly and actually pretty cool." She got curious, went closer, and Zeus played it super smooth, staying calm and approachable. When she got comfortable enough, she even climbed onto his back for a ride—just for fun! I mean, who hasn’t hopped onto a crazy idea because it seemed cool at the time, right?

But then things got wild. Suddenly, Zeus took off, sprinting across the beach and straight into the sea. He didn’t just want to show her the local scene; he was taking her across the entire Mediterranean to Crete, like some super intense onboarding retreat she hadn’t signed up for. By the time they got there, she was probably exhausted, confused, and questioning her life choices.

And here’s the kicker: once they arrived, Zeus was like, “Oh hey, it’s me! Not just some chill bull—surprise, I’m Zeus.” At this point, Europa realized she was in way deeper than she’d ever expected. She ended up staying in Crete, becoming queen and building a legacy, which, sure, sounds great on paper. But you have to wonder if that’s what she really wanted in the first place, or if she was just swept up in the whirlwind of Zeus's charm and grand promises.

So, in the end, Europa's career ended up in a place she never saw coming. She became a name people would remember for centuries, but not necessarily on her own terms. It’s the classic millennial dilemma: she got a high-profile "role" with Zeus, but did she really get to build her own brand, or was she just another line in Zeus’s impressive (and very long) resume?

Maybe Europa would look back on this “opportunity” and think, “Did I even want this? Or did I just get pulled into someone else’s grand plan?” A classic case of getting lost in the allure of “networking,” and honestly, a pretty good reminder to always check out who’s really behind the bull.
{{cob}}
[[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.82|172.68.23.82]] "This bull is kind of weirdly friendly and actually pretty cool" 16:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::ChatGPT should have learned long ago that it's not cool to reproduce rape culture. But I guess AI just doesn't get better than its training material... [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 16:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3011: Europa Clipper

2024-11-14T16:34:03Z

Transgalactic:

Talk:3011: Europa Clipper

2024-11-14T16:33:18Z

Transgalactic: Undo revision 356806

Talk:3011: Europa Clipper

2024-11-14T16:32:31Z

Transgalactic:

I'm not brave enough to actually add an explanation myself, quite yet, but ... I guess this is a reference to the fact(?) that Europa looks a bit like a creme brulee', when viewed from space? https://science.nasa.gov/jupiter/moons/europa/ It does look tasty ... :) [[User:ModelD|ModelD]] ([[User talk:ModelD|talk]]) 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:I suspect it's more due to the need to drill through a couple miles of ice to get to the ocean; much like breaking through the sugar crust on a creme broule! [[User:Seebert|Seebert]] ([[User talk:Seebert|talk]]) 13:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to the people at 9AM Post things on another website to try and explain XKCD Comics. -Forgotten_Mail {{unsigned ip|172.69.33.177|13:30, 13 November 2024}}

The comically large spoon!!!!!!!!!! I love those. -[[User:Psychoticpotato|P?sych??otic?pot??at???o ]] ([[User talk:Psychoticpotato|talk]]) 16:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
: Don't be sucked in! Protect yourself! https://rathergood.com/2017/02/10/spoonguard/ [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.105|141.101.99.105]] 10:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the "Crème brûlée is from France, France is in Europe, the moon is called Europa" connection is a bit of a stretch...? [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 18:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
: Eh, it's the same etymology. --[[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.230|172.69.134.230]] 11:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:: The issue of the continent and the moon coming from the same classical source (for different reasons) rather stretches the link between the dish (from the country, from the country's region/continent, from the region of Greece, ''possibly'' from the pantheon) and the moon (directly from the pantheon). I agree with the 'stretch' assessment. You can probably find easier and more plausible (but wrong) links worth alluding to than that, which relies upon several steps and a ''possible'' polysemic pair of original links. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.58.45|172.70.58.45]] 12:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::From an American perspective, Europe might seem like a distant, mysterious place that you might want to send a probe to to gather interesting information, and also somewhere that crème brûlée comes from. It's also potentially confusable (by the easily confused) with Europa. That seems like a reasonable enough connection to make to me. The mention of France is essentially by the by.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.26.107|172.71.26.107]] 12:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::It keeps getting said that "Europa is named after Europe", '''which is not correct''' (etymology, BTW, not entomology). I shall have to re-restore some other changes made to the same paragraph in rapid succession whilst I was trying to explain this. Bear with me. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.195|172.70.160.195]] 14:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::...You don't care, do you. You just keep putting it back in. SMH. Have fun. Someone else will probably be along to correct you ''again'' later. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.68.92|141.101.68.92]] 15:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

"only a spoonful" moment 💔 [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 19:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone should add a reference to XKCD's previous mention of a Planetary Protection Officer: https://what-if.xkcd.com/117/ [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.221|162.158.42.221]] 00:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

JUICE mentioned!!! cracker ham cheese cracker ham cheese cracker [[User:N-eh|N-eh]] ([[User talk:N-eh|talk]]) 07:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is a list from NASA about spacecraft instrument deployment failures, they are remarkably frequent: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20210020397/downloads/Alphonzo%20Stewart-%20Final%20Paper.pdf [[Special:Contributions/162.158.19.50|162.158.19.50]] 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to have a conversation about how the insertion orbit plan is so chaotic that there is a significant chance that the probe might crash in to and pierce the crust of Europa. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.187.56|162.158.187.56]] 14:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:...and if so, what's the likelihood of hitting just the right angle to scrape off a tasty bit with that spoon? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 16:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:Well we just need Elon to lock in the plan that if it crashes then it automatically becomes a sample return mission, and the first SolarCity sales rep to break out +150% of their quota gets to be the one to crash it. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.130|162.158.42.130]] 15:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
::I can ''not'' believe I got ChatGPT to make this for me:
{{cot|You have been warned}}

Europa was this smart, ambitious woman just trying to make it out there in the Mediterranean startup scene. She had her plans, her own thing going on, some solid friends, and a bright future. She wasn’t looking for anything too complicated; she just wanted to keep her options open and figure out her next big move.

Enter Zeus. Now, picture him as that intense CEO type—big, powerful, kind of legendary for his influence (and his *questionable* reputation). He’s been around the block a few times, always looking for the next exciting project or, well… person. Zeus saw Europa, and she was exactly his type: sharp, resourceful, had a lot of potential. He was like, "Yeah, I need *that* in my portfolio."

But Zeus was a little extra with his tactics. Instead of just, you know, scheduling a coffee chat or reaching out on LinkedIn like a normal person, he came up with this elaborate scheme. He disguised himself as this beautiful white bull (yeah, Zeus was *that* guy who would make things way more complicated than necessary). He wandered down to the shore near Europa and her friends, looking majestic and mysterious, and let her come to him.

Europa, understandably, was like, "This bull is kind of weirdly friendly and actually pretty cool." She got curious, went closer, and Zeus played it super smooth, staying calm and approachable. When she got comfortable enough, she even climbed onto his back for a ride—just for fun! I mean, who hasn’t hopped onto a crazy idea because it seemed cool at the time, right?

But then things got wild. Suddenly, Zeus took off, sprinting across the beach and straight into the sea. He didn’t just want to show her the local scene; he was taking her across the entire Mediterranean to Crete, like some super intense onboarding retreat she hadn’t signed up for. By the time they got there, she was probably exhausted, confused, and questioning her life choices.

And here’s the kicker: once they arrived, Zeus was like, “Oh hey, it’s me! Not just some chill bull—surprise, I’m Zeus.” At this point, Europa realized she was in way deeper than she’d ever expected. She ended up staying in Crete, becoming queen and building a legacy, which, sure, sounds great on paper. But you have to wonder if that’s what she really wanted in the first place, or if she was just swept up in the whirlwind of Zeus's charm and grand promises.

So, in the end, Europa's career ended up in a place she never saw coming. She became a name people would remember for centuries, but not necessarily on her own terms. It’s the classic millennial dilemma: she got a high-profile "role" with Zeus, but did she really get to build her own brand, or was she just another line in Zeus’s impressive (and very long) resume?

Maybe Europa would look back on this “opportunity” and think, “Did I even want this? Or did I just get pulled into someone else’s grand plan?” A classic case of getting lost in the allure of “networking,” and honestly, a pretty good reminder to always check out who’s really behind the bull.
{{cob}}
::[[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.82|172.68.23.82]] 16:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::ChatGPT should have learned long ago that it's not cool to reproduce rape culture. But I guess AI just doesn't get better than its training material... [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 16:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3011: Europa Clipper

2024-11-14T16:04:37Z

Transgalactic:

I'm not brave enough to actually add an explanation myself, quite yet, but ... I guess this is a reference to the fact(?) that Europa looks a bit like a creme brulee', when viewed from space? https://science.nasa.gov/jupiter/moons/europa/ It does look tasty ... :) [[User:ModelD|ModelD]] ([[User talk:ModelD|talk]]) 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:I suspect it's more due to the need to drill through a couple miles of ice to get to the ocean; much like breaking through the sugar crust on a creme broule! [[User:Seebert|Seebert]] ([[User talk:Seebert|talk]]) 13:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to the people at 9AM Post things on another website to try and explain XKCD Comics. -Forgotten_Mail {{unsigned ip|172.69.33.177|13:30, 13 November 2024}}

The comically large spoon!!!!!!!!!! I love those. -[[User:Psychoticpotato|P?sych??otic?pot??at???o ]] ([[User talk:Psychoticpotato|talk]]) 16:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
: Don't be sucked in! Protect yourself! https://rathergood.com/2017/02/10/spoonguard/ [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.105|141.101.99.105]] 10:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the "Crème brûlée is from France, France is in Europe, the moon is called Europa" connection is a bit of a stretch...? [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 18:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
: Eh, it's the same etymology. --[[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.230|172.69.134.230]] 11:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:: The issue of the continent and the moon coming from the same classical source (for different reasons) rather stretches the link between the dish (from the country, from the country's region/continent, from the region of Greece, ''possibly'' from the pantheon) and the moon (directly from the pantheon). I agree with the 'stretch' assessment. You can probably find easier and more plausible (but wrong) links worth alluding to than that, which relies upon several steps and a ''possible'' polysemic pair of original links. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.58.45|172.70.58.45]] 12:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::From an American perspective, Europe might seem like a distant, mysterious place that you might want to send a probe to to gather interesting information, and also somewhere that crème brûlée comes from. It's also potentially confusable (by the easily confused) with Europa. That seems like a reasonable enough connection to make to me. The mention of France is essentially by the by.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.26.107|172.71.26.107]] 12:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::It keeps getting said that "Europa is named after Europe", '''which is not correct''' (etymology, BTW, not entomology). I shall have to re-restore some other changes made to the same paragraph in rapid succession whilst I was trying to explain this. Bear with me. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.195|172.70.160.195]] 14:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:::...You don't care, do you. You just keep putting it back in. SMH. Have fun. Someone else will probably be along to correct you ''again'' later. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.68.92|141.101.68.92]] 15:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

"only a spoonful" moment 💔 [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 19:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone should add a reference to XKCD's previous mention of a Planetary Protection Officer: https://what-if.xkcd.com/117/ [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.221|162.158.42.221]] 00:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

JUICE mentioned!!! cracker ham cheese cracker ham cheese cracker [[User:N-eh|N-eh]] ([[User talk:N-eh|talk]]) 07:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is a list from NASA about spacecraft instrument deployment failures, they are remarkably frequent: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20210020397/downloads/Alphonzo%20Stewart-%20Final%20Paper.pdf [[Special:Contributions/162.158.19.50|162.158.19.50]] 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to have a conversation about how the insertion orbit plan is so chaotic that there is a significant chance that the probe might crash in to and pierce the crust of Europa. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.187.56|162.158.187.56]] 14:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:...and if so, what's the likelihood of hitting just the right angle to scrape off a tasty bit with that spoon? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 16:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:Well we just need Elon to lock in the plan that if it crashes then it automatically becomes a sample return mission, and the first SolarCity sales rep to break out +150% of their quota gets to be the one to crash it. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.130|162.158.42.130]] 15:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
::I can ''not'' believe I got ChatGPT to make this for me:
{{cot|You have been warned}}
So, here's the thing about Zeus and Europa, but told from a kind of career-minded, millennial perspective:

Europa was this smart, ambitious woman just trying to make it out there in the Mediterranean startup scene. She had her plans, her own thing going on, some solid friends, and a bright future. She wasn’t looking for anything too complicated; she just wanted to keep her options open and figure out her next big move.

Enter Zeus. Now, picture him as that intense CEO type—big, powerful, kind of legendary for his influence (and his *questionable* reputation). He’s been around the block a few times, always looking for the next exciting project or, well… person. Zeus saw Europa, and she was exactly his type: sharp, resourceful, had a lot of potential. He was like, "Yeah, I need *that* in my portfolio."

But Zeus was a little extra with his tactics. Instead of just, you know, scheduling a coffee chat or reaching out on LinkedIn like a normal person, he came up with this elaborate scheme. He disguised himself as this beautiful white bull (yeah, Zeus was *that* guy who would make things way more complicated than necessary). He wandered down to the shore near Europa and her friends, looking majestic and mysterious, and let her come to him.

Europa, understandably, was like, "This bull is kind of weirdly friendly and actually pretty cool." She got curious, went closer, and Zeus played it super smooth, staying calm and approachable. When she got comfortable enough, she even climbed onto his back for a ride—just for fun! I mean, who hasn’t hopped onto a crazy idea because it seemed cool at the time, right?

But then things got wild. Suddenly, Zeus took off, sprinting across the beach and straight into the sea. He didn’t just want to show her the local scene; he was taking her across the entire Mediterranean to Crete, like some super intense onboarding retreat she hadn’t signed up for. By the time they got there, she was probably exhausted, confused, and questioning her life choices.

And here’s the kicker: once they arrived, Zeus was like, “Oh hey, it’s me! Not just some chill bull—surprise, I’m Zeus.” At this point, Europa realized she was in way deeper than she’d ever expected. She ended up staying in Crete, becoming queen and building a legacy, which, sure, sounds great on paper. But you have to wonder if that’s what she really wanted in the first place, or if she was just swept up in the whirlwind of Zeus's charm and grand promises.

So, in the end, Europa's career ended up in a place she never saw coming. She became a name people would remember for centuries, but not necessarily on her own terms. It’s the classic millennial dilemma: she got a high-profile "role" with Zeus, but did she really get to build her own brand, or was she just another line in Zeus’s impressive (and very long) resume?

Maybe Europa would look back on this “opportunity” and think, “Did I even want this? Or did I just get pulled into someone else’s grand plan?” A classic case of getting lost in the allure of “networking,” and honestly, a pretty good reminder to always check out who’s really behind the bull.
{{cob}}
::[[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.82|172.68.23.82]] 16:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:3008: Proterozoic Rocks

2024-11-07T17:21:55Z

Transgalactic:

So the last panel refers to the unseen birth of a rock? How are rocks even born?:
:Farther - does is mean father back, or further ahead in time? If ahead it could mean Randall do not think there will be any eyes left to see in 500 million years time. Which is not unlikely. Earth will not stay inhabitable much longer than that (probably 800 million years, then the seas will have evaporated). --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 08:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:A few ways. Fusion likely formed many elements, and neutron star death possibly the rest of the naturally occurring ones. When those started sticking together they would form rocks. The type likely being referred to here is probably sediment being compressed and former a cohesive stone, magma crystalizing, or compression of the latter two types of rocks into different types of rocks. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.124.222|172.71.124.222]] 06:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:I think in this context it was by up welling magma and they are only rare because plate tectonics and erosion has recycled 99.9X% of them. [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 07:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:First the mommy rock and the daddy rock fall in love... [[Special:Contributions/172.71.175.16|172.71.175.16]] 15:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Makes me think of the manga ''Houseki No Kuni'' (''Land of the Lustrous'') and how effortlessly it depicts thousands and millions of years passing in a blink. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.228|162.158.159.228]] 08:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Guess Randall didn't want to acknowledge the results. Can't say I blame him. [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 08:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Well it did end in an all black panel... Like his mood. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 08:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Maybe he thinks she can still win? [[Special:Contributions/172.71.31.39|172.71.31.39]] 13:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Oh, I think everything in this comic speaks that Randall is acutely aware of the results. Meditating on eon-old stones is a mental health exercise. I feel him. - and gave the explanation a try. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I ''like'' that title text. It has a poetic quality. (It refers to when various part of animal anatomy first evolved, but does so in a really nice way.) --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.24|162.158.74.24]] 08:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the explanation should at least include the other interpretation of "farther", namely "farther back in time". I think that's the more obvious one, personally: he's saying these rocks are a billion years old, eyes evolved 500 million years ago and that vast abyss of time "stretches back as far as the eye can see ... and then 500 million years farther" [back]. As in, these rocks existed for 500 million years in a world where there were no eyes. Right? I don't know how the future got involved, it seems to be pretty clearly about the past.[[User:ModelD|ModelD]] ([[User talk:ModelD|talk]]) 14:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:Yeah, that description of 'farther back in time' really seems to make more sense here, since the comic talks about how the rocks were there for roughly that long before eyes existed, and it keeps with the poetic, reflective nature of the rest of the comic, while the future interpretation feels like a bit of a jump from one theme to another. [[User:UnbiasedBrigade|UnbiasedBrigade]] ([[User talk:UnbiasedBrigade|talk]]) 15:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
: I concur. This is the interpretation I had before coming to explainxkcd. I think that efforts to make the cartoon be about current events impose a meaning on it that the cartoonist is not yet ready to express. The cartoon appeared very late, and (speaking of imposing a meaning on a cartoon) I imagine Randall struggled mightily to come up with an idea that was not some variation on a fireball of wrath consuming the USA and everything in it. I would also remove the climate-change reference as an overreaching interpretation. For what it's worth, Randall's living depends on computer use by his audience, and computer use is a massive contributor to anthropogenic climate change. I have read repeatedly that, in order to persuade someone to adopt a desired behavior, the proponent has to model it. In this case, by massive reductions in personal energy usage ... which will simultaneously make your life miserable and put you out of the public eye, where no one can see the correct behavior you're modeling. How I learned to stop worrying and love carbon dioxide. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.42.96|162.158.42.96]] 15:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
::Possibly that was my own doomsday mindset. I see it's been edited to correct this. :-D (N.B.: Fwiw, Randall depending on computers does not mean he can't be worried about and active against climate change.) [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 17:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
: There's really no good reason for imaginging the "further" is "further forward" if you've just been talking of looking back. Imagine being given directions to go back towards where you noted a prior landmark and then go further, that wouldn't mean return to here and then go onward again. As such, I've reworded the "future extinction" bit entirely in the other direction (it might mean a different treatment of the "mood explanation" now in the Trivia, but meshes with the comic itself). I pondered adding that, even before 'eyes', there were different phases of light/illumination (and/or shadow) sensitivity that would have meant that day/night (or at least hot vs. cold rocks) and things such as looming predators or overhanging shelter would still have been 'sensed', so being "dark-blind" would have been not necessarily a thing, but instead I just alluded to the Sun still shining (or glowing lava still illuminating, as with the Moon and its pre-fragments whenever they were up above) to aid an actual visit to that era by a time-tourist, and that it's just a selective regression (or a limited degree of retro-posession of any contemporary entity) that leads to "having nothing to see with/by". But to properly expand these extended philosophies in the Explanation would probably clutter up the existing text too much. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.219|172.70.160.219]] 16:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Um. Pretty sure this comic has nothing to do with the 2024 election. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.174.23|162.158.174.23]] 15:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
: It seems at least mildly relevant. It's a huge, recent event; of a sort that Randall is known to care a lot about; and the meditative mood being evoked seems appropriate. I wouldn't call it an "election comic" or anything, but the trivial is certainly relevant. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.58.132|172.69.58.132]] 16:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

: I would not be surprised to see this sort of thing unrelated to the current events (it shares a viewpoint given in such as [[1198: Geologist]], which is <s>almost</s> worth an in-article back reference), but I also think that it's not unlikely that the "mood" of the piece (looking back into "the black", perhaps) is prompted by what we can assume Randall is feeling about current events. Not quite the old "Sad Comics" category, but reflective, and different from what we might have seen under more jubilant (for Randall, at least, but also for many others) times down the different trouser-leg of time. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.219|172.70.160.219]] 16:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Oops, I read the 16:14 version https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=3008:_Proterozoic_Rocks&oldid=356138 , decided to edit the article and didn't notice that it had already been changed. I don't know if I should remove my edit or merge the 2 edits? [[User:Rps|Rps]] ([[User talk:Rps|talk]]) 16:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:If this was my edit (regarding the "Further back"), I might remerge (to my satisfaction) if you haven't already.
:I've noticed, recently, that there's ''occasionally'' an inadvertent way past Edit Conflicts without a warning (though I got one just here and just now, because of your edit just above!), which I'm sure used to be better handled. But could just be one of those things. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.219|172.70.160.219]] 16:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

3008: Proterozoic Rocks

2024-11-07T17:18:10Z

Transgalactic: language redaction / simplification

{{comic
| number = 3008
| date = November 6, 2024
| title = Proterozoic Rocks
| image = proterozoic_rocks_2x.png
| imagesize = 740x272px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = These rocks are from a time before eyes, brains, and bones, pieces of a land warmed by an unseen sun.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a BLIND PROTEROZOIC BOT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{w|Proterozoic}} rocks such as the 1.1 billion-year-old rocks in the comic were formed 2500 to 538.8 million years ago, and some of them survived the tectonic movements until today. Proterozoic rocks which were formed from sediment at the bottom of an inland sea such as the former {{w|Western Interior Seaway}} would be placed in North America today.

Animal life and the first animal [https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1716824114 eyes developed on trilobites] half a billion years ago, around the transition between the proterozoic and the phanerozoic {{w|Cambrian}} period, which saw a great proliferation of biological diversity, also known as the Cambrian Explosion.

In the last two panels Cueball talks about feeling a connection to the rock, which spans "a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see. And then 500 million years farther." This could be interpreted as expressing the need to connect to something that exists vastly beyond the current turbulent era, to put it into perspective and to find strength in knowing that nature transcends human troubles. The distant past without complex eye-bearing life is illustrated by the ultimate panel in black (because there were no eyes). An alternative viewpoint might be to use the dark far past as an analogy for the darkened far future, beyond the immediate cares of the current world, which would also apply perspective upon any and all present worldviews.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[Cueball is seen at a distance, walking amid a rocky landscape.]
:I love being near Proterozoic rocks.
:These ones are 1.1 billion years old.
:That's so, '''''so''''' old.

:[Cueball standing next to a rock.]
:Eyes evolved half a billion years ago. The first time a rock was ever looked at, these rocks were already 500 million years old.

:[Cueball sitting atop a large rock.]
:People say geologic time makes them feel small. But when I touch this rock, it's like I'm a part of it, spanning a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see.

:[A completely black panel except for text in white lettering.]
:And then 500 million years farther.

== Trivia ==

This comic was published on the day when {{w|Donald Trump}}'s re-election as president of the USA was announced. Randall was vocal in his support for oppositional candidate {{w|Kamala Harris}}; the xkcd homepage featured [https://web.archive.org/web/20241106175959im_/https://imgs.xkcd.com/news/harris_news@2x.png a drawing with a "Vote for Harris" sign] [https://web.archive.org/web/20241106215812/https://xkcd.com/ during the run-up to the election]. Trump's renewed presidency (at a time when the [https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/degrees-matter +1.5°C target] to limit global warming is [https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2024-virtually-certain-be-warmest-year-and-first-year-above-15degc most likely already missed]) is predicted to [https://www.climatechangenews.com/2024/11/06/us-election-climate-experts-react-to-donald-trumps-victory/ exacerbate climate change], which is a hazard to many complex eye-bearing life forms, including humans.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:All Comics]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Geology]]
[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Comics with inverted brightness]]

3008: Proterozoic Rocks

2024-11-07T13:54:01Z

Transgalactic:

{{comic
| number = 3008
| date = November 6, 2024
| title = Proterozoic Rocks
| image = proterozoic_rocks_2x.png
| imagesize = 740x272px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = These rocks are from a time before eyes, brains, and bones, pieces of a land warmed by an unseen sun.
}}

{{incomplete|Created by a BLIND PROTEROZOIC BOT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{w|Proterozoic}} rocks such as the 1.1 billion-year-old rock in the comic were formed 2500 to 538.8 million years ago, and some of them survived the tectonic movements until today. Proterozoic rocks which were formed from sediment at the bottom of an inland sea such as the former {{w|Western Interior Seaway}} would be placed in North America today.

Animal life and the first animal [https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1716824114 eyes developed on trilobites] half a billion years ago, around the transition between the proterozoic and the phanerozoic {{w|Cambrian}} period, which saw a great proliferation of biological diversity.

In the last two panels Cueball talks about feeling a connection to the rock, which "spans a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see. And then 500 million years farther." This could be interpreted as expressing the need to connect to something that lasts vastly beyond the current turbulent era, to put it into perspective and to find strength in knowing that nature transcends human troubles. At the same time the ultimate black panel foreshadows a future without complex eye-bearing life, which could occur prematurely due to man-made extinction events.

This comic was published on the day when {{w|Donald Trump}}'s re-election as president of the USA was announced. Randall was vocal in his support for oppositional candidate {{w|Kamala Harris}}; the xkcd homepage featured a drawing with a "Vote for Harris" sign during the run-up to the election. Trump's renewed presidency (at a time when the [https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/degrees-matter +1.5°C target] to limit global warming is [https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2024-virtually-certain-be-warmest-year-and-first-year-above-15degc most likely already missed]) is predicted to [https://www.climatechangenews.com/2024/11/06/us-election-climate-experts-react-to-donald-trumps-victory/ exacerbate climate change], which is a hazard to many complex life forms including humans.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[Cueball is seen at a distance, walking amid a rocky landscape.]
:I love being near Proterozoic rocks.
:These ones are 1.1 billion years old.
:That's so, '''''so''''' old.

:[Cueball standing next to a rock.]
:Eyes evolved half a billion years ago. The first time a rock was ever looked at, these rocks were already 500 million years old.

:[Cueball sitting atop a large rock.]
:People say geologic time makes them feel small. But when I touch this rock, it's like I'm a part of it, spanning a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see.

:[A completely black panel except for text in white lettering.]
:And then 500 million years farther.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Geology]]
[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Comics with inverted brightness]]

3008: Proterozoic Rocks

2024-11-07T13:52:27Z

Transgalactic:

{{comic
| number = 3008
| date = November 6, 2024
| title = Proterozoic Rocks
| image = proterozoic_rocks_2x.png
| imagesize = 740x272px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = These rocks are from a time before eyes, brains, and bones, pieces of a land warmed by an unseen sun.
}}

{{incomplete|Created by a BLIND PROTEROZOIC BOT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{w|Proterozoic}} rocks such as the 1.1 billion-year-old rock in the comic were formed 2500 to 538.8 million years ago, and some of them survived the tectonic movements until today. Proterozoic rocks formed from sediment at the bottom of an inland sea such as the former {{w|Western Interior Seaway}} would be placed in North America today.

Animal life and the first animal [https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1716824114 eyes developed on trilobites] half a billion years ago, around the transition between the proterozoic and the phanerozoic {{w|Cambrian}} period, which saw a great proliferation of biological diversity.

In the last two panels Cueball talks about feeling a connection to the rock, which "spans a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see. And then 500 million years farther." This could be interpreted as expressing the need to connect to something that lasts vastly beyond the current turbulent era, to put it into perspective and to find strength in knowing that nature transcends human troubles. At the same time the ultimate black panel foreshadows a future without complex eye-bearing life, which could occur prematurely due to man-made extinction events.

This comic was published on the day when {{w|Donald Trump}}'s re-election as president of the USA was announced. Randall was vocal in his support for oppositional candidate {{w|Kamala Harris}}; the xkcd homepage featured a drawing with a "Vote for Harris" sign during the run-up to the election. Trump's renewed presidency (at a time when the [https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/degrees-matter +1.5°C target] to limit global warming is [https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2024-virtually-certain-be-warmest-year-and-first-year-above-15degc most likely already missed]) is predicted to [https://www.climatechangenews.com/2024/11/06/us-election-climate-experts-react-to-donald-trumps-victory/ exacerbate climate change], which is a hazard to many complex life forms including humans.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[Cueball is seen at a distance, walking amid a rocky landscape.]
:I love being near Proterozoic rocks.
:These ones are 1.1 billion years old.
:That's so, '''''so''''' old.

:[Cueball standing next to a rock.]
:Eyes evolved half a billion years ago. The first time a rock was ever looked at, these rocks were already 500 million years old.

:[Cueball sitting atop a large rock.]
:People say geologic time makes them feel small. But when I touch this rock, it's like I'm a part of it, spanning a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see.

:[A completely black panel except for text in white lettering.]
:And then 500 million years farther.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Geology]]
[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Comics with inverted brightness]]

Talk:3008: Proterozoic Rocks

2024-11-07T13:49:52Z

Transgalactic:

3008: Proterozoic Rocks

2024-11-07T13:47:38Z

Transgalactic: /* Explanation */ created: proterozoic, survival of rocks from that era, first eyes, connection across eons, extinction of eye-bearing life, Trump's election, climate change

{{comic
| number = 3008
| date = November 6, 2024
| title = Proterozoic Rocks
| image = proterozoic_rocks_2x.png
| imagesize = 740x272px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = These rocks are from a time before eyes, brains, and bones, pieces of a land warmed by an unseen sun.
}}

{{incomplete|Created by a BLIND PROTEROZOIC BOT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{w|Proterozoic}} rocks such as the 1.1 billion-year-old rock in the comic were formed 2500 to 538.8 million years ago, and some of them survived the tectonic movements until today. Proterozoic rocks formed from sediment at the bottom of an inland sea such as the former {{w|Western Interior Seaway}} would be placed in North America today.

Animal life and the first animal [https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1716824114 eyes developed on trilobites] half a billion years ago, around the transition between the proterozoic and the phanerozoic {{w|Cambrian}} period, which saw a great proliferation of biological diversity.

In the last two panels Cueball talks about feeling a connection to the rock, which "spans a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see. And then 500 million years farther." This could be interpreted as expressing the need to connect to something that lasts vastly beyond the current turbulent era, to put it into perspective and to find strength in knowing that nature transcends human troubles. At the same time the ultimate black panel foreshadows a future without complex eye-bearing life, which could occur prematurely due to man-made extinction events.

This comic was published on the day when {{w|Donald Trump}}'s re-election as president of the USA was announced. Randall was vocal in his support for oppositional candidate {{w|Kamala Harris}}; the xkcd homepage featured a drawing with a "Vote for Harris" sign during the run-up to the election. Trump's renewed presidency at a time when the [https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/degrees-matter +1.5°C target] to limit global warming is [https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2024-virtually-certain-be-warmest-year-and-first-year-above-15degc most likely already missed] is predicted to [https://www.climatechangenews.com/2024/11/06/us-election-climate-experts-react-to-donald-trumps-victory/ exacerbate climate change], which is a hazard to many complex life forms including humans.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[Cueball is seen at a distance, walking amid a rocky landscape.]
:I love being near Proterozoic rocks.
:These ones are 1.1 billion years old.
:That's so, '''''so''''' old.

:[Cueball standing next to a rock.]
:Eyes evolved half a billion years ago. The first time a rock was ever looked at, these rocks were already 500 million years old.

:[Cueball sitting atop a large rock.]
:People say geologic time makes them feel small. But when I touch this rock, it's like I'm a part of it, spanning a vast abyss of time that stretches back as far as the eye can see.

:[A completely black panel except for text in white lettering.]
:And then 500 million years farther.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Geology]]
[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Comics with inverted brightness]]

2995: University Commas

2024-11-05T00:27:36Z

Transgalactic: put the incomplete tag back up

{{comic
| number = 2995
| date = October 7, 2024
| title = University Commas
| image = university_commas_2x.png
| imagesize = 580x273px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The distinctive 'UCLA comma' and 'Michigan comma' are a long string of commas at the start and end of the sentence respectively.
}}

==Explanation==

{{incomplete|Created by a SERIAL COMMA - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon. This explanation needs some tidying up.}}

The use of commas in the English language is {{w|Comma#Uses in English|famously disputed}}, most relevantly among publishers and academics. This comic imagines that all possible (and some improbable) comma positions in an example sentence are associated with different universities. This applies to commas which should ''always'' be present in a list, optional commas (regardless of whether they have anything to do with a list, such as after the word "please") and blatantly erroneous commas (which should ''never'' be present in a sentence, e.g. immediately prior to the {{w|full stop}}/period).

The Oxford comma (a.k.a. {{w|serial comma}} or, despite how this comic represents it, the ''actual'' Harvard comma) is a comma between the penultimate item in a list and its conjunction (typically ''and'' or ''or''), to echo all the commas (at least one) that act as {{w|Comma#List separator and the serial (Oxford) comma|placeholders for the conjunction}} in-between all prior members of the list. For instance, you might write "red, white, and blue" (with the Oxford comma) or "red, white and blue" (without it). Some style guides, such as ''{{w|The Oxford Style Manual}}'' published by {{w|Oxford University Press}}, (unsurprisingly) recommend using it, while other similarly authoritative guides recommend against it. Though even those with either recommendation may suggest its (non-)use in situations where this avoids an ambiguity arising from the normally recommended choice.

One {{w|Serial comma#Ambiguity|common example}} showing the need for an Oxford comma is "To my parents, Ayn Rand''',''' and God". Without the comma (as in: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"), it may read that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and God. If such confusion is to be avoided, reordering the list is a common way to avoid ambiguity, for example, "To Ayn Rand, God and my parents" is one such reordering. However, the use of an Oxford comma in this version might imply the deification of Ayn Rand. Conversely, if the sentence was instead to be "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God", with such a comma, there arises the possibility of an assertion that one's mother is Ayn Rand, whereas "To my mother, Ayn Rand and God" does not let one fall into that trap.

{{w|Macaroni and cheese}} (often shortened to "Mac and cheese" in the US and Canada) should be considered a single item in a list like this. When just two items are joined together, e.g. to name a compound food such as "peanut butter and jelly", "fish and chips" or "steak and eggs", a comma isn't placed before "and". It is in the use of such compounded items, as a singular list item, where some confusion can arise. Alternate forms ("fish'n'chips", "salt-and-pepper", "PB&J") can put emphasis upon the low-level linking of the components, the outer list can be rewritten (e.g. with semicolon separation) or the reader can be left to logically assume where such a commonly encountered pairing is not part of the wider list. A difference in conjunction can also help to clarify, as in "A good choice of breakfast is ham and eggs, sausage and eggs or sausage and beans, but not ham and beans", which is ''unlikely'' to be accidentally misunderstood (including as options such as "sausage + (eggs or additional sausage) + beans" or "sausage + ('non-ham' beans) + further beans").

In the most common interpretation the example sentence reads (with proper punctuation and bracketed Oxford comma): "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread."

However, most of the commas are possible punctuation marks in a specific pragmatic reading of the sentence:

{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|-
! Comma name !! Notation !! Explanation
|-
| Harvard comma || Please, buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Emphatic plea, marked by a sub-clause separator. (Note that "Harvard comma" is already a common synonym for the Oxford comma, in its context.)
{{w|Harvard University}} is one of eight {{w|Ivy League}} universities in the United States.
|-
| Yale comma || Please buy, apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A merchant's plea to their customer, marked by a sub-clause separator. This makes the sentence a sentence fragment but this is not uncommon in speech. One use of a comma is to indicate a grammatical aside in speech and (optionally) a return from that pause — as it would here — though more formal writing would typically used a more specific punctuation mark, such as a colon. The implication may be that the list of items are those for sale or that there is a promotion around those items specifically.
{{w|Yale University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Stanford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Stanford University}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States. It is located in Silicon Valley, a short distance from the headquarters of {{w|Apple Inc.}} The Stanford comma between "apples" and "mac" is probably necessary there to distinguish discussions of the food products from discussion of the computer products.
|-
| Columbia comma || Please buy apples, mac, and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A plea to buy apples, cheese, milk and bread, directed at a person called Mac, whose name is stylized as "mac".

Alternatively, a plea to buy apples, a raincoat, cheese, milk[,] and bread. The first 'and' would then be superfluous, but this could reflect the speaker adding the last two items in the moment to an initial request for the first three.

{{w|Columbia University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Cambridge comma || (Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese being unavailable, milk[,] and bread.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence. Also requires "mac" to be an item of its own, not a part of "mac and cheese".
The {{w|University of Cambridge}} is one of the two eponymous {{w|Oxbridge}} universities in the United Kingdom. Not to be confused with {{w|Cambridge, Massachusetts#Higher education|other establishments}} in (or originally in) Cambridge, Massachusetts.
|-
| Cornell comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Cornell University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States. It has {{w|Cornell Dairy|its own dairy farm}}, which is why the Cornell comma is placed between dairy products, "cheese" and "milk".
|-
| Oxford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and bread. || The {{w|Oxford comma}}, as discussed above, is a comma often used in lists (with more than two elements) to further separate the last two elements and thus attempt to avoid ambiguity. In this case, it is unlikely that there would be confusion as to how to interpret the given list, with or without this comma.
The {{w|University of Oxford}} is the other eponymous Oxbridge university in the United Kingdom. Not to be confused with {{w|Oxford Brookes University}}, or universities in {{w|Oxford_(disambiguation)#Places|any other Oxford}}.
|-
| Princeton comma || (Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and, bread being out of stock, oats.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence.
{{w|Princeton University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| MIT comma || (Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread, thank you.) || Possible reference to [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11597901/why-are-trailing-commas-allowed-in-a-list trailing commas sometimes used in programming], which would be associated with a university highly specialized in technology. If each of these words were identifiers, then including all commas would be a valid way to express a list in some languages (though using a period to indicate the end of a list is uncommon). Specifically, MIT is home to the Rust programming language, which uses trailing commas for the last item of a list as a matter of programming style. In some programming languages trailing commas are allowed since a comma denotes a list and a trailing comma is a way to create a Single-Element list.
The {{w|Massachusetts Institute of Technology}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States.{{citation needed}}
|-
| UCLA comma(s) || (,,,…,,,Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese, milk[,] and bread.) || rowspan="2" | '''Title text proposal''', the two establishments being responsible for each set of commas, perhaps in collaboration. Can perhaps relate to rather specific quotation or quote-separation contexts not in common use. Also strangely looks like German quote marks (two commas at the beginning of the quote and two apostrophes at the end) and their LaTeX representation if you are using the babel package.
The {{w|University of California, Los Angeles}} and the {{w|University of Michigan}} are two more well known universities in the United States.{{citation needed}}
|-
| Michigan comma(s) || (Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese, milk[,] and bread.,,,…,,,)
|}

Depending upon who you talk to, the two establishments referenced by the title text may not be considered quite as prominent or outstanding as the Ivy League universities, or others mentioned here, hence their relegation to title text punchline. But (actual Ivy Leaguers) {{w|Brown University}}, {{w|Dartmouth College}} and the {{w|University of Pennsylvania}} were not referenced at all, for one reason or another; for example, the very idea of a "Brown comma" might more readily resonate with the concept of the {{w|Brown note}}.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[A sentence is written in greyed-out text, with the commas in black and each labeled with an arrow.]
:Please''',''' buy''',''' apples''',''' mac''',''' and''',''' cheese''',''' milk''',''' and''',''' bread''','''.

:[The labels are as follows, in order from left to right:]
:Harvard comma
:Yale comma
:Stanford comma
:Columbia comma
:Cambridge comma
:Cornell comma
:Oxford comma
:Princeton comma
:MIT comma

:[Caption below the panel:]
:The Oxford one is the most famous, but many major universities have their own comma.

==Trivia==
[[Randall]] appears to be a fairly regular user of the Serial/Oxford Comma himself, with the most recent example being in the title text of [[2985: Craters]]. This is clearly out of habit or preference, as it is not required for clarification purposes. Yet it seems he also appreciates the conflicting viewpoints inherent to such a style opinion. He later completely avoided the use of list-commas in a (three-part) list within the comic text of the successive [[2986: Every Scientific Field]], possibly for rhetorical reasons.

This very wiki currently reminds anyone editing a page that their contributions "may be edited, altered, or removed", which is also not a syntactical necessity beyond adherence to the Oxford styling. Later, in the same paragraph of text, it also uses structure of "…, or … or …", but for different grammatical reasons that are unrelated to serial/list commas.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]
[[Category:Language]]
[[Category:Food]]

Talk:2995: University Commas

2024-11-05T00:23:01Z

Transgalactic:

As Wikipedia notes, the {{w|Harvard comma}} is actually a thing, and synonymous with the Oxford comma. It's hard to understand whether Randall was just ignoring that.
It's interesting to also look at how the various commas are meaningful. For instance, the Yale comma here appears to be just plain ungrammatical, you'd never put a comma between a verb and a its direct object; similarly the Cambridge comma and Princeton commas are ungrammatical, you'd never put one after the word "and." The Stanford comma is unambiguously normal and it's not clear how you could have such a list without it (absent replacement with a [Stanford?] semicolon). The Columbia comma is being used to separate "mac and cheese" into "mac, and[,] cheese" which changes the semantic meaning (arguably into something meaningless, but maybe we're listing Apple Computers or even Macintosh apple fruit abbreviated). The MIT comma is a cute programming joke for multiline lists. Maybe there are hidden trick meanings (like MIT) I'm missing. [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 23:03, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
:On their own, few of them are intrinsically bad, in the right context.
:*"Please, buy" - valid comma. Prefixed subclause (general plea).
:*"Please buy, apples" - valid comma (more specific plea).
:*"apples, mac" - valid comma (list-type).
:*"mac, and" - valid comma (potentially a conjunctive sub-clause).
:*"mac and, cheese" - valid comma (potentially a post-conjunctive sub-clause).
:*"and cheese, milk" - valid comma (follow-up sub-clause).
:*"cheese, milk, and" - Oxford comma. (Thus invalid, by default. IMO.)
:*"milk and, bread." - ...would be valid, as above, except for the sentence ending.
:*"and bread,." - Ok. Definitely the worst. (Except for the Oxford Comma, which is still worserer!)
:Obviously, combinations of them (or counterpart lack of them, in some cases) can clash badly. Some can work well together, but using ()s, ;s or feetnete* is often better than diving in and out of sub-clauses in the midst of a comma-bound list and potentially making it ambiguous whether you're diving in/out of a clarifying aside or replacing a non-terminating conjunction or perhaps one of the other usages to which a comma might apply.
:* Or just generally rewriting a multi-clausal sentence completely! [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.22|172.70.86.22]] 23:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
::Sorry, no: "and," is bad grammar, except when illustrating a dramatic (but grammatically wrong) verbal pause; ", and" is fine for noting a pause used to divide a list, but it's best to use semicolons in a divided list. IE: "milk; bread; mac and cheese; blood, sweat, and tears". (Again, "blood, sweat and tears", would be atypical cadence if spoken aloud; therefore, the comma.) I don't care what style guides say, only what works well.
::[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 15:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
:::What's grammatically wrong about something like "I drink beer and, on occasion, cider"?
::::Thank you for the "and, on occasion, beer and cider" example. Looking only at the given sentence about a shopping list, I wondered if the subordinate clause suggestion was edit-mangle or a very strange dialect difference. [[User:JimJJewett|JimJJewett]] ([[User talk:JimJJewett|talk]]) 02:34, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::It wasn't "and, on occasion, beer and cider" given as an example. It was "[I drink] beer and, on occasion, cider". Depending upon what comes before the "and,", it ''might'' be the same sort of thing, but "beer and, on occasion, cider" probably is intended to mean "... beer (mostly) and cider (occasionally)". Your vesion might be somethng like "I drink beer, cider and, on occasion, beer and cider" => "I drink beer (frequently), cider (frequently) and a beer-and-cider-mix (occasionally)".
:::::(Noting that I've never tried mixing beer and cider, although I have done it with wine and cider. Long story. Though mostly it was mixed in my stomach, not pre-mixed. Probably made me the absolute drunkest I ever have been, but the effects took more time to take effect than those who were deliberately plying me with the drink(s) counted on, so their 'plan' sort of failed... I was younger and foolisher, but so were they! These days, I prefer my beer (typically a bitter, maybe a stout, generally not lagers/etc) unblended in any way. The same with my whisky (single malt, and in preference to whiskey). And wine's fine, but with a meal. Don't really go for ciders these days. If I want something appley, I prefer fruit juice, and if I want something fizzy (not all ciders are fizzy, but most of the major ones are) then give me a Pepsi Max (or something similar - I love the taste of aspartame in the morning!). But I rarely mix anything more than cordial/concentrate and water.)
:::::As to how people mangle/dialectise subordinate clauses, I couldn't say. I think it's grammatically odd to say "Write me!" (for "Write '''to''' me!), ''or'' to say "lit it on fire" (I'd just say that I "lit it", or "set fire to it"), so there's probably some strangeness of expectations between sublinguistic jurisdictions. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.205.165|172.68.205.165]] 15:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

:::Also, the cadence of "blood, sweat and tears" has nothing to do with the commas you give it. This isn't a case of marking verbal ticks, with... uh... transcribed notation. Either for official recording purposes or in the pre-scripting of speech for later performance. One is free to nuance the phrase how you want, with or without OC. The main issue about the OC is whether a list (of ''more'' than two items) should have each (non-final) element followed by a comma? Or are commas placeholders only for the "and"/"or"s that are omited? (And my opinion is that it is the latter, all else being equal. I apply that to semicolon-separated lists, insofar as I won't end with "...; penultimate item; '''and'' last item", but prefer to omit the '''and''' (or '''or'' ), casting whether it's a list of options or an accumulation by the introductory/follow-up contextualisation of that list.)
:::But, whichever standard you prefer, there will be cases where it reads wrongly to others. If you're lucky enough to spot it, then you can look to what you can do to adjust the sentence to remove ambiguity. This does not normally mean adding in any old commas where,,,,, you think a Pinter Pause is needed. (Maybe an ellipsis, in normal writing.) The fact that a grammatical comma may be where a spoken pause may crop up is not because the comma causes the pause. The verbal pause is (if not garbled out) caused by the same understanding of how clauses/etc require intoning under the circumstances.
:::But it is a rhetorical choice as to whether to intone "blood..., sweat... and tears" or "blood, sweat and... tears" or any number of other pausing strategies, as it is how you faithfully transcribe what has already been intoned. When merely listing these in text, your chosen style of grammar is the master. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.134|172.70.160.134]] 19:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

::Commas can go in a number of places in lists, and, occasionally, after the word "and". [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 23:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
::Potentially, anything is possible... I can see how a sentence like "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and, bread being out of stock, oats" would work, but I really don't see how the commas after "and" could work ''in this sentence''. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 08:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

If each item in a list shall be followed by a comma then the MIT comma is quite proper. SDT [[Special:Contributions/172.68.245.206|172.68.245.206]] 05:11, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The UCLA comma may refer to the 8 clap, a chant at UCLA which is begins with a string of 8 claps. {{unsigned ip|172.68.205.178|07:33, 8 October 2024}}

I thought the UCLA & Michigan commas referred to quotes within citations. This isn't uncommon in literary studies, where you quote articles quoting books. Depending on your quotation style, this can result in a long string of 3-4 "commas" (as in: short lines in punctuation marks). If you place the quote between actual commas, make that 4-5. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 08:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the tirade against the Oxford comma in the article is not relevant for understanding the comic. "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God' does not" is not saying that Ayn Rand is the mother. To express that one should write "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and to God". Thus the ambiguity can be resolved. I believe one of the editors is mixing in their personal taste here. --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.160.71|172.71.160.71]] 09:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:Tirade? Hardly. It explains when it doesn't help (and when it might).
:And I think you misread. "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God' does not" indeed does not say that Ayn Rand is the mother. In fact it ''explicitly'' says that "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God'"... erm... does ''not'' say the thing that 'To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God' ''potentially'' does. (See table below.)
:The choice of how to disambiguate "my mother, who is Ayn Rand", as a concept, is another thing and has multiple options. Disambiguating in the direction of a simple list is the contention surrounding the Oxford(/Serial) Comma itself (it is, by definition, being used in the list format), given that some circumstances are most helped by it and others are most helped by its absence. If you're strongly for the OC, you'll hopefully rewrite problematic OCed formulations so that you can use it. If you're strongly against it you should change problamatic non-OCed versions so that you can better go without one. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.128|172.70.85.128]] 10:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Inspired (a bit) by the Three Laws permutation table, a set of possible ambiguations from the straight list...
{| class="wikitable"
!A !!B !!C !!"A, B and C" !!"A, B, and C"
|-
|my parents||Ayn Rand||God||"my parents (who are Ayn Rand and God)"||''list only''*
|-
|my parents||God||Ayn Rand||"my parents (who are God and Ayn Rand)"||''list only''*
|-
|Ayn Rand||my parents||God||''list only''* ||''list only''*
|-
|Ayn Rand||God||my parents||''list only''* ||"Ayn Rand (who is God), and my parents"
|-
|God||my parents||Ayn Rand||''list only''* ||''list only''*
|-
|God||Ayn Rand||my parents||''list only''* ||"God (who is Ayn Rand), and my parents"
|}
:-* - Assuming no other "All You Zombies" and/or divine incarnation scenarios.
:...maybe it's too early in the morning, but I'm sure I'm missing other ambiguities I've commented on before. (Without necesarily going into the asterisked territories.) Anyone want to amend this? [[Special:Contributions/172.68.186.105|172.68.186.105]] 09:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::Love it! [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 10:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::There's additional potential ambiguity if you go with the singular "my mother" as opposed to the plural "my parents". "My mother, Ayn Rand, and God" (with the Oxford comma) could be listing 2 separate entities while indicating that my mother is Ayn Rand, or could be listing 3 separate entities. "My mother, Ayn Rand and God" (without the Oxford comma) could be referring to a single entity while indicating that my mother is both Ayn Rand and God, or listing 3 separate entities. (In a phrase like, "My mother, Ayn Rand and God, gave it to me," the comma after God indicates that it's one entity, but you lose that clarity with "It was given to me by my mother, Ayn Rand and God." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.70.66|172.68.70.66]] 14:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:::What if my mother, Ayn Rand, and God are actually the trinity?[[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.87|172.69.195.87]] 08:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::::I myself, was fully expecting one of the examples given, to be: "To my God and mother, Ayn Rand". [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 15:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I realize that this comic focuses on University commas, however I feel that some mention should be made about the Walken Comma and the Shatner Comma! [[Special:Contributions/172.70.114.103|172.70.114.103]] 10:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:What, do you,    mean by,   that? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.106|172.69.195.106]] 13:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::Here's the explanation: [https://www.joeydevilla.com/2015/06/26/a-visual-guide-to-the-different-comma-styles/ Walken and Shatner Commas] [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.228|162.158.62.228]] 11:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

{{w|Mac and cheese}} is probably not well-known outside the US (especially not under that name). --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.160.115|172.71.160.115]] 13:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:As usual, the Brits don't know how to name food. "Macaroni cheese" sounds like the macaroni is made of cheese. But I added an explanation and link to the Wikipedia page. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 14:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::Don't be silly, that would clearly be named "cheese macaroni". Macaroni cheese is clearly cheese for macaroni, and it's simply polite to serve macaroni to have it with as well. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.151.114|172.71.151.114]] 14:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::: By the logic of your second interpretation, "cheese macaroni" is clearly macaroni for cheese. The lexical existence of this separate form of macaroni begs the question: what kind of macaroni goes best with macaroni cheese? The plain kind or cheese macaroni? The answer is neither! The best kind of macaroni to serve with macaroni cheese is clearly macaroni-cheese macaroni. But then what kind of cheese goes best with that? None other than (macaroni cheese)-macaroni cheese, which in turn is best served with ((macaroni cheese) macaroni)-cheese macaroni. This interleaving of macaroni and cheese never ends, meaning that no matter where you choose to stop, you will always end up with a sub-optimal pairing. So it's best to just not eat any form of cheese with any form of macaroni, to avoid disappointment. As an aside, the logic of your first interpretation implies that "macaroni cheese" is actually cheese that's made of macaroni. [[User:MelodiousThunk|MelodiousThunk]] ([[User talk:MelodiousThunk|talk]]) 12:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::As opposed to 'mac and cheese', which sounds like a particularly unappetising dish made using a waterproof coat.[[Special:Contributions/172.68.186.92|172.68.186.92]] 15:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Oddly, US English goes the other way with "grilled cheese", neglecting to mention that the cheese should be placed between slices of bread before grilling; in British English, it would generally be called a "cheese toastie". (Until looking it up, I was under the mistaken belief that it was a name for what we would call "cheese on toast", which also involves grilling the cheese, on the toast.) [[User:IMSoP|IMSoP]] ([[User talk:IMSoP|talk]]) 21:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::Grilled Cheese is short for Grilled Cheese Sandwich, and Cheese Toastie is short for toasted (or toast(ie/y) cheese Sandwich. In both cases the hearer is expected to know, either from context or experience, that a sandwich is being referenced (offered). It is possible that toasting has mor eassociations with bread (and therefore sandwiches) than grilling, but either toasting or grilling can be done to a variety of foods, including bread(s).[[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.171|172.70.130.171]] 23:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::A "toasted cheese sandwich" may or may not get the same name as "cheese on toast" (i.e. a sort of "toasted cheese smörgåsbord", or a kind of {{w|Welsh rarebit}}-redux, rather than 'raw' cheese put onto freshly toasted toast, which is yet ''another'' option).
::::::In general, if the cheese is exposed to the grilling (and, technically, could have any (or no!) substrate rather than bread) it could be considered "grilled cheese", in a way that cheese enclosed (perhaps nipped-closed, in 'toastie maker' devices) is only actually a melted filling.
::::::But I reckon there's many interpretations of handy "heating up cheese and bread" dishes, and many of those will involve grilling and/or toasting, but not necessarily both. Or either, as "bread on cheese" in the microwave for a short blast can be nice, as can a fried cheese sandwich (and, doubtless, also ''deep-''fried has been tried, but not by me). And with much variation on what any of that might be termed.
::::::...and, if you'll excuse me, you've made me acutely aware that there is extra mature cheddar and wholemeal sliced bread in the house and a variety of means to cook (or not cook) it. I might try an open-topped cheese-on-bread heated up in the ...waffle-maker..? not sure what it is, but it's not strictly a sandwich-toaster and I've never made waffles in it... with the top propped up to not messily press into the eventually melting cheese top. With a sprinkling of herbs and spices and the bread lightly buttered(/non-dairy-spreaded, technically), it'll end up not toasted but delightfully cooked and all melty (hopefully not too much, molten cheese sticking to the roof of the mouth is rather awkward!) and probably raise my cholesterol more than is healthy. And, no, I don't really have a name for it. Adding another slice of bread on top, before 'waffle-ironing, might make it a sorted-of-toasted cheese sandwich, but "heated smorgasbord" doesn't really roll off the tongue (nor does the cheese, if I excessively melt it). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.110|172.70.85.110]] 05:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

:'Mac & cheese' is, sadly, probably more common in the UK now than the proper 'macaroni cheese'.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.47|141.101.99.47]] 08:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

:'Mac & Cheese' is not even used that commonly in Canada. The dish is more commonly referred to as KD, short for Kraft Dinner, which is the most common version found in most grocers, similar to Kleenex being a substitute for tissues. [[User:Argleblargh|Argleblargh]] ([[User talk:Argleblargh|talk]]) 23:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to the added red text in the Notation column, but it needs to be explained in the Explanation column. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.90.8|162.158.90.8]] 00:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Could this, at least in part, be about typography, not grammar and style? The depicted commas are not all the same. [[User:Divad27182|Divad27182]] ([[User talk:Divad27182|talk]]) 10:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, MIT is the home of the Rust language, which prominently uses trailing commas after the last item in a list as a matter of programming style.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.211|172.70.214.211]]
* As best I can tell this isn't true? Rust was not developed at MIT, nor is it currently sponsored by MIT. As best I can tell, the only association between the two is an old copy of the book "The Rust Programming Language" hosted under MIT's domain. I would guess that the comic refers to it as the "MIT comma" simply for the reference to programming [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.97|162.158.158.97]] 16:43, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

ABAP uses dots as end-of-command delimiters. {{unsigned ip|162.158.202.92|06:13, 11 October 2024}}

I read the Columbia comma as adding a specification to the apples, that they should be McIntosh apples shortened as "mac". I don't see why the explanation suggests a raincoat here... [[User:Kapten-N|Kapten-N]] ([[User talk:Kapten-N|talk]]) 09:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

== ! UNRESOLVED VERSION CONFLICT ! ==
There has been a problem with different versions. I shifted a paragraph, but the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2995:_University_Commas&oldid=352624 version that got saved] had 1615 characters less than before. A whole lot of rambling had been removed from the explanation, but there was no version conflict warning and no other saved revision in the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2995:_University_Commas&action=history revision history]. I didn't want to take credit for the changes, though I appreciated them, so I undid my edit, then redid my shift of paragraphs, and hoped that the other editor would reconcile the versions. That didn't happen. I'm writing this note to draw attention to the "lost edit". [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 18:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

:It seems later editors simply ignored my warning. This is currently one of the least readable explanations in the whole wiki. I'm putting the "incomplete" tag back up to fix this. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 00:23, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2997: Solar Protons

2024-11-05T00:08:17Z

Transgalactic:

cute and wholesome 😊 [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 17:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Re, "idealized depiction": does this mean it's not a real photo? Is it AI? It would be nice to know the source, if possible. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.175.99|162.158.175.99]] 17:57, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

:tfw you forget Randall Munroe is an artist [[Special:Contributions/162.158.103.90|162.158.103.90]] 19:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
::It's an easy mistake... [[Special:Contributions/141.101.109.166|141.101.109.166]] 07:28, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Seriously tho, when he does to art its great, he should try it more often [[User:SomeRandomNerd|SomeRandomNerd]] ([[User talk:SomeRandomNerd|talk]]) 02:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

: I'm reminded once again of the opening scenes in Jumanji: the first set of children see the pieces move by themselves and conclude "it must be magnets"; then a generation later, the conclusion is "it must be microchips". Such is the success of the current marketing around LLMs and similar that "it must be AI" feels like a more natural conclusion than "that's nice artwork"! See also [[1838: Machine Learning]]. - [[User:IMSoP|IMSoP]] ([[User talk:IMSoP|talk]]) 14:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

3D stick figure is peak blursed [[Special:Contributions/172.70.210.235|172.70.210.235]] 18:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Um, I feel the "Beret Guy is repeating two common misconception about aurora..." etc. paragraph is a bit unjust. The comic doesn't say anywhere that the solar protons ''are'' the aurora, nor ''how exactly'' they cause it. If the comic depicted a huge smoke cloud, and the sign read something like "Welcome flames! You'll love devouring our area!", would you also write about Randall wrongly thinking that all fires come with smoke? My guess is that most laypeople's understanding of auroras is too vague to be a misconception, at about like "This has something to do with stuff from the sun, right?" => I'd suggest to keep the explanation about the science of auroras, but delete the guesswork about Beret Guy's or Randall's purported misconceptions. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 22:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
:If it is a misconception then it is actually a bit sad that Randall promotes it if he knew this to be false... So I think leaving in that it is a misconception is important. And also to mention we do not actually know if Randall knows this himself. I would guess he does, in which case the misconception is Beret Guys. This should be in the explanation. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 06:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
::My point was: The comic does not say anything about the physical process. It just shows an aurora and a sign that implies that there are solar protons arriving on Earth when there is an exceptionally huge and bright aurora. Which is correct. The comic simply doesn't say how exactly the solar protons trigger processes that create auroras. So, I agree that misconceptions about auroras should be mentioned along with the correct physics. But attributing the misconceptions to Beret Guy or Randall seems unfair because the comic simply doesn't say anything about that. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 23:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

2997: Solar Protons

2024-11-05T00:04:24Z

Transgalactic: /* Explanation */ attributing the misconception to the general public rather than Randall

{{comic
| number = 2997
| date = October 11, 2024
| title = Solar Protons
| image = solar_protons_2x.png
| imagesize = 647x783px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = If any of you want to meet some cool local oxygen atoms, I can introduce you!
}}

==Explanation==

This comic is referencing the solar storm that hit the Earth on Thursday night before the comic. A result of the storm was that {{w|northern lights}} were visible across much of the northern United States, including Massachusetts where [[Randall]] lives. The northern lights normally occur much farther north, making this a rare and spectacular occurrence. The rare color background of this panel is an illustration of the northern lights.

The solar protons referenced are hydrogen nuclei ejected from the sun. Since most hydrogen atoms are just a single proton and electron pair, once the electron is removed, the resulting ion is just a proton. These protons, being positively charged, interact with Earth's magnetosphere, and the resulting excitation of atoms in the atmosphere causes them to emit light in the form of aurora. In the northern hemisphere the aurora is called aurora borealis (Latin for "northern dawn") and in the southern hemisphere it is called aurora australis (Latin for "southern dawn").

Note, however, that - contrary to some common misconceptions - auroras are only created indirectly due to the impact of solar particles, and only a small fraction of all auroras are triggered by solar protons from coronal mass ejections. [https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/content/aurora-tutorial Most auroras are caused by electrons, and these electrons are mostly already trapped over the long term in Earth's magnetosphere] (although many of them originated in the solar wind at some point). The interaction of the solar wind's magnetic field with Earth's magnetosphere can create strong electric fields parallel to the magnetic field lines near the poles, and these electric fields energize the electrons and accelerate them into the atmosphere, where their interactions with oxygen and nitrogen molecules create the emission lines of the aurora. The comic merely implies that there must be solar protons arriving on Earth when there are such impressive northern lights in Beret Guy's home town, which seems likely.{{citation needed}}

Here, [[Beret Guy]] takes on the task of giving the protons a cordial welcome to Earth, where they will spend the foreseeable future. He has set up a sign to welcome them, presumably because he is happy to see the northern lights. His sign claims that they will love being part of the atmosphere, presumably because the protons are interacting with other atoms in the atmosphere if aurora lights are emitted. The sign also invites them to try creating water. Water consists of one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms sharing an electron each with the oxygen. Since the solar protons are just hydrogen nuclei, they can form water by interacting with oxygen atoms or hydroxide ions (OH-). Scientists believe that solar wind [https://physicsworld.com/a/did-the-solar-wind-create-earths-water/ frequently creates water] by interaction of the hydrogen nuclei with oxygen. However, the mechanism proposed involves solar wind first creating hydroxide from compounds in asteroids and space dust, and then another proton joining to make water. As most of the oxygen in Earth's atmosphere consists of O2 molecules (two bound oxygen atoms), it is not clear if solar protons could create water in the atmosphere at the same time as the northern lights, as opposed to via various other intermediate atmospheric/geological/biological interactions which might take up hydrogen (ionised or otherwise).

The title text references water formation by saying that Beret Guy can introduce the solar protons/hydrogen nuclei to cool oxygen atoms. In reality hydrogen nuclei from the solar wind do not need an introduction,{{Citation needed}} but instead, due to their great speed, form bonds with oxygen when they impact oxygen or hydroxide.

==Transcript==
:[A large mainly black panel is filled with colorful aurora that streaks upwards from the central part of the panel. The aurora if mainly red, orange and yellow light in the streaks that goes to the top of the panel and green in the broad band at the bottom part of the aurora. The band starts lower tot he left and moves higher towards the right. Behind the aurora is a starry night sky. Beret Guy is drawn as a black silhouette just left of the center beneath the aurora which he is looking up at. He is standing on a grassy field, next to a sign to his right. The sign is black with text in a light-greenish font:]
:Welcome Solar Protons!
:You'll love being part of our atmosphere!
:There's so much to do here. Try forming water!

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with color]]
[[Category:Comics with inverted brightness]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Beret Guy]]
[[Category:Astronomy]]
[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Chemistry]]

Talk:2997: Solar Protons

2024-11-04T23:39:14Z

Transgalactic:

cute and wholesome 😊 [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]]) 17:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Re, "idealized depiction": does this mean it's not a real photo? Is it AI? It would be nice to know the source, if possible. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.175.99|162.158.175.99]] 17:57, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

:tfw you forget Randall Munroe is an artist [[Special:Contributions/162.158.103.90|162.158.103.90]] 19:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
::It's an easy mistake... [[Special:Contributions/141.101.109.166|141.101.109.166]] 07:28, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Seriously tho, when he does to art its great, he should try it more often [[User:SomeRandomNerd|SomeRandomNerd]] ([[User talk:SomeRandomNerd|talk]]) 02:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

: I'm reminded once again of the opening scenes in Jumanji: the first set of children see the pieces move by themselves and conclude "it must be magnets"; then a generation later, the conclusion is "it must be microchips". Such is the success of the current marketing around LLMs and similar that "it must be AI" feels like a more natural conclusion than "that's nice artwork"! See also [[1838: Machine Learning]]. - [[User:IMSoP|IMSoP]] ([[User talk:IMSoP|talk]]) 14:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

3D stick figure is peak blursed [[Special:Contributions/172.70.210.235|172.70.210.235]] 18:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Um, I feel the "Beret Guy is repeating two common misconception about aurora..." etc. paragraph is a bit unjust. The comic doesn't say anywhere that the solar protons ''are'' the aurora, nor ''how exactly'' they cause it. If the comic depicted a huge smoke cloud, and the sign read something like "Welcome flames! You'll love devouring our area!", would you also write about Randall wrongly thinking that all fires come with smoke? My guess is that most laypeople's understanding of auroras is too vague to be a misconception, at about like "This has something to do with stuff from the sun, right?" => I'd suggest to keep the explanation about the science of auroras, but delete the guesswork about Beret Guy's or Randall's purported misconceptions. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 22:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
:If it is a misconception then it is actually a bit sad that Randall promotes it if he knew this to be false... So I think leaving in that it is a misconception is important. And also to mention we do not actually know if Randall knows this himself. I would guess he does, in which case the misconception is Beret Guys. This should be in the explanation. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 06:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
::My point was: The comic does not say anything about the physical process. It just shows an aurora and a sign that implies that there are solar protons arriving on Earth when there is an aurora. Which is correct. The comic simply doesn't say how exactly the solar protons trigger processes that create auroras. So, I agree that misconceptions about auroras should be mentioned along with the correct physics. But attributing the misconceptions to Beret Guy or Randall seems unfair because the comic simply doesn't say anything about that. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 23:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

3006: Demons

2024-11-04T23:17:32Z

Transgalactic: added commentary about modern physics/torture + untangled a sentence

{{comic
| number = 3006
| date = November 1, 2024
| title = Demons
| image = demons_2x.png
| imagesize = 285x458px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = Though they do appreciate how much he improved the heating system for the flame pit.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a DEMI-DEMONIC DOORMAN - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{w|Maxwell's demon}} is a thought experiment devised by {{w|James Clerk Maxwell}} that appears to refute the {{w|second law of thermodynamics}}, which roughly says that heat always flows from hotter regions to colder. In the thought experiment, two chambers, both containing a gas at the same temperature, have a door between them. A being (later called a demon by {{w|Lord Kelvin}}) lets only fast-moving gas molecules move from the first chamber to the second, and only slow-moving ones move from the second chamber to the first. The second chamber's gas gradually warms as the average speed of its molecules increases, and the first chamber's gas likewise cools, apparently contradicting the second law. However, the actions of such a demon would use up at least the amount of energy that could later be extracted from having a gas separated into hot and cold parts, so such a demon could not gain energy and Maxwell's demon does not break the second law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics is a fairly common theme in xkcd, last being mentioned in [[2848: Breaker Box]].

This demon behaves very differently from mythological {{w|demons}}, which exist in the afterlife (usually some form of {{w|hell}}) and punish evil humans after death by causing them great suffering, as for example boiling them in oil or casting them into flame pits. In this comic, [[Randall]] jokes that if Maxwell's demon were to encounter more stereotypical mythological ones, he would probably not fit in very well, and would inevitably propose treating humans like the particles of the thought experiment. While a few physics-savvy humans might feel offended by such treatment{{Citation needed}}, real suffering could be caused by the anxiety of knowing that, once you choose to cross the door, you are not allowed to return ''for all eternity''. This modern psychological approach to torture stands out from ancient techniques of physical torture such as being boiled in oil or cast into a flame pit.

The scientist Maxwell challenged traditional notions about physical phenomena by providing modern statistical explanations of "large-scale effects" such as temperature changes and modern infinitesimal explanations of "distant effects" such as electromagnetic forces. In a similar vein, Maxwell's demon in the comic challenges the mythological demons' traditional notion of torture by proposing modern psychological torture.

The title text continues the joke by suggesting that while Maxwell's demon's idea for torturing the souls of the damned might seem whimsical to the other demons, it could still be used to heat the flame pits better. The other demons' appreciation of this technical improvement mirrors real-life situations where kids that "have trouble fitting in with the others" due to their unusual ideas for games and atypical interests (e.g., in thermodynamics) occasionally earn some appreciation when their cleverness is found to be useful.

This comic was published on 1 November, 2024, the day after Halloween, around the time when many contemporary comic strips have demonic, supernatural or other spooky themes.

==Transcript==
:[Three demons, Cueball-like in general appearance but with horns and pointed tails, are standing together while surrounded by flames. The leftmost demon is holding a pitchfork and the next one has his hands down. They are looking at the third to the right standing a bit apart from them. This last demon, Maxwell's demon as given in the caption, holds his palms up while looking at the other two.]
:Demon with pitchfork: What's our plan for the souls today? Boil them in oil?
:Middle demon: We could cast them into the flame pit.
:Maxwell's demon: What if we set up two rooms with a door in between, but– get this– '''''we only let them go through it one way!'''''

:[Caption below the panel:]
:Maxwell's Demon had trouble fitting in with the others.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Physics]]
[[Category:Religion]]
[[Category:Demons]]

Talk:3006: Demons

2024-11-02T03:06:12Z

Transgalactic:

Instead of an iron pitchfork, he probably uses a silver hammer! [[Special:Contributions/172.71.26.54|172.71.26.54]] 16:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

🤓☝ moment [[User:CalibansCreations|'''Caliban''']] ([[User talk:CalibansCreations|talk]])
20:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
:Why are his hands backwards??? What did you do to him?! [[User:Psychoticpotato|P?sych??otic?pot??at???o ]] ([[User talk:Psychoticpotato|talk]]) 21:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that while boiling souls in oil or casting them into flame pit is traditional, multiple authors already made the observation that it's not really that effective and that modern devils would likely go for psychological torture instead. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 01:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
:That's what I thought... it's a beautiful meta-comment that the comic makes this transition to modern torture coincide with the transition to modern physics, as it is embodied by Maxwell, who explained "large-scale effects" and "distant effects" microscopically resp. infinitesimally. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 03:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

==New category: Infernal Strips==
What do you think about a new Infernal category for strips with demons or in hell? There are quite a few. [[501]], [[533]]... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.47.10|172.70.47.10]] 17:56, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
:I agree. [[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]] ([[User talk:42.book.addict|talk]]) 18:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
:: I just tagged a half-dozen strips, but a site admin will have to create the category page itself. It turns out there was some overlap with a "Religion" category, whodathunkit. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.46.243|172.70.46.243]] 19:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
:::They were tagged inconsistently (at least two different forms of the category). And as they were all redlinked I undid them all anyway.
:::The proper process is more like:
:::# Say something like ''Hey, I think we need a "Category:<Foo>"'',
:::#* To justify it, identify a handful of comics (or all of them, if you're being thorough). Unless perhaps the comic is called "SOMETHING SOMETHING NUMBER 1" and it very much looks like it's going to be the start of a series, although still might be best to wait for "SOMETHING SOMETHING NUMBER 2".
:::# Get comments (e.g. ''Yes, a good general idea, but it should probably be "Category:<Bar>" to be consistent/accurate/properly-inclusive/etc'') and additions (''Yeah, and comic in #1234 would fit too!'')
:::# When someone who can (e.g. 42, there) decides it's been successfully argued to an agreement (YMMV), they use the final list (and the agreed upon name) to create the category and at least start the process of adding the category memberships.
:::To be honest, though I agree about the relevence of the created [[:Category:Rockets]], as just done, I also think that one was done far too quickly. I'd at least wait a few days after the last "Good idea!", just in case someone who checks in regularly but not frequently (e.g. once a week) has any wise words to add. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.49|162.158.74.49]] 22:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

==New category: Classical Thought Experiments==
While I'm at it, I'd also suggest a new category for Classical Thought Experiments, everything from Maxwell's Demon to Schroedinger's Cat to the Trolley Problem. Readers may be familiar with some, but not all of the classical references, and it would be nice to have them all accessible from the same page. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.46.243|172.70.46.243]] 19:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
:I can see something like this being useful. Not ''entirely'' sure of the name, but maybe, and I'm not sure what a better one would be. (To start off the discussion, as described above.) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.58.21|172.70.58.21]] 22:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There's some [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_(thought_experiment) other demons] made famous by thought experiments. I wonder how Maxwell's Demon would get along with the Evil Demon that tricks people into thinking they're 17th century philosophers. And I'm sure Laplace's Demon already knows how they'd get along. [[User:DanielLC|DanielLC]] ([[User talk:DanielLC|talk]]) 23:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

3006: Demons

2024-11-02T02:58:02Z

Transgalactic: Edited middle section to include the notion of psychological torture / The cool demons appreciating the nerdy demon's contraption for its usefulness struck a chord...

{{comic
| number = 3006
| date = November 1, 2024
| title = Demons
| image = demons_2x.png
| imagesize = 285x458px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = Though they do appreciate how much he improved the heating system for the flame pit.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a DEMI-DEMONIC DOORMAN - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

{{w|Maxwell's demon}} is a thought experiment devised by {{w|James Clerk Maxwell}} that appears to refute the {{w|second law of thermodynamics}}, which roughly says that heat always flows from hotter regions to colder. In the thought experiment, two chambers, both containing a gas at the same temperature, have a door between them. A being (later called a demon by {{w|Lord Kelvin}}) lets only fast-moving gas molecules move from the first chamber to the second, and only slow-moving ones move from the second chamber to the first. The second chamber's gas gradually warms as the average speed of its molecules increases, and the first chamber's gas likewise cools. This demon behaves very differently from mythological {{w|demons}}, which exist in the afterlife (usually some form of {{w|hell}}) and punish evil humans after death by causing them great suffering, as for example boiling them in oil or casting them into flame pits.

In this comic, Randall jokes that, if such a demon were to encounter more stereotypical mythological ones, he would probably not fit in very well, and would inevitably propose treating humans like the particles of the thought experiment. While a few physics-savvy humans might feel offended by such treatment, for most, the suffering would stem from the anxiety of knowing that, once they cross the door, they are not allowed to return for all eternity. So, unlike particles which move by simple virtue of having energy, they must ''choose'' when to cross it. This modern psychological approach to torture stands out from ancient techniques of physical torture such as being boiled in oil or cast into a flame pit.

The title text continues the joke by suggesting that while Maxwell's demon's idea for torturing the souls of the damned might seem whimsical to the other demons, it could still be used to heat the flame pits better. The other demons' appreciation of this technical improvement mirrors real-life situations where kids that "have trouble fitting in with the others" due to their unusual ideas for games and atypical interests (e.g. in thermodynamics) occasionally earn some appreciation when their cleverness is deemed useful.

This comic was published on 1 November, 2024, the day after Halloween, around the time when many contemporary comic strips have demonic, supernatural or other spooky themes.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
:[Three demons standing in hell, surrounded by fire. Each demon has two horns and a tail. The leftmost demon is holding a pitchfork.]
:Leftmost demon: What's our plan for the souls today? Boil them in oil?
:Middle demon: We could cast them into the flame pit.
:Rightmost demon: What if we set up two rooms with a door in between, but– get this– ''we only let them go through it one way!''

:[Caption below the panel:]
:Maxwell's Demon had trouble fitting in with the others.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Physics]]

Talk:2997: Solar Protons

2024-10-12T22:13:49Z

Transgalactic:

Talk:2995: University Commas

2024-10-11T18:28:46Z

Transgalactic: note about lost edit

As Wikipedia notes, the {{w|Harvard comma}} is actually a thing, and synonymous with the Oxford comma. It's hard to understand whether Randall was just ignoring that.
It's interesting to also look at how the various commas are meaningful. For instance, the Yale comma here appears to be just plain ungrammatical, you'd never put a comma between a verb and a its direct object; similarly the Cambridge comma and Princeton commas are ungrammatical, you'd never put one after the word "and." The Stanford comma is unambiguously normal and it's not clear how you could have such a list without it (absent replacement with a [Stanford?] semicolon). The Columbia comma is being used to separate "mac and cheese" into "mac, and[,] cheese" which changes the semantic meaning (arguably into something meaningless, but maybe we're listing Apple Computers or even Macintosh apple fruit abbreviated). The MIT comma is a cute programming joke for multiline lists. Maybe there are hidden trick meanings (like MIT) I'm missing. [[User:JohnHawkinson|JohnHawkinson]] ([[User talk:JohnHawkinson|talk]]) 23:03, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
:On their own, few of them are intrinsically bad, in the right context.
:*"Please, buy" - valid comma. Prefixed subclause (general plea).
:*"Please buy, apples" - valid comma (more specific plea).
:*"apples, mac" - valid comma (list-type).
:*"mac, and" - valid comma (potentially a conjunctive sub-clause).
:*"mac and, cheese" - valid comma (potentially a post-conjunctive sub-clause).
:*"and cheese, milk" - valid comma (follow-up sub-clause).
:*"cheese, milk, and" - Oxford comma. (Thus invalid, by default. IMO.)
:*"milk and, bread." - ...would be valid, as above, except for the sentence ending.
:*"and bread,." - Ok. Definitely the worst. (Except for the Oxford Comma, which is still worserer!)
:Obviously, combinations of them (or counterpart lack of them, in some cases) can clash badly. Some can work well together, but using ()s, ;s or feetnete* is often better than diving in and out of sub-clauses in the midst of a comma-bound list and potentially making it ambiguous whether you're diving in/out of a clarifying aside or replacing a non-terminating conjunction or perhaps one of the other usages to which a comma might apply.
:* Or just generally rewriting a multi-clausal sentence completely! [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.22|172.70.86.22]] 23:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
::Sorry, no: "and," is bad grammar, except when illustrating a dramatic (but grammatically wrong) verbal pause; ", and" is fine for noting a pause used to divide a list, but it's best to use semicolons in a divided list. IE: "milk; bread; mac and cheese; blood, sweat, and tears". (Again, "blood, sweat and tears", would be atypical cadence if spoken aloud; therefore, the comma.) I don't care what style guides say, only what works well.
::[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 15:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
:::What's grammatically wrong about something like "I drink beer and, on occasion, cider"?
:::Also, the cadence of "blood, sweat and tears" has nothing to do with the commas you give it. This isn't a case of marking verbal ticks, with... uh... transcribed notation. Either for official recording purposes or in the pre-scripting of speech for later performance. One is free to nuance the phrase how you want, with or without OC. The main issue about the OC is whether a list (of ''more'' than two items) should have each (non-final) element followed by a comma? Or are commas placeholders only for the "and"/"or"s that are omited? (And my opinion is that it is the latter, all else being equal. I apply that to semicolon-separated lists, insofar as I won't end with "...; penultimate item; '''and'' last item", but prefer to omit the '''and''' (or '''or'' ), casting whether it's a list of options or an accumulation by the introductory/follow-up contextualisation of that list.)
:::But, whichever standard you prefer, there will be cases where it reads wrongly to others. If you're lucky enough to spot it, then you can look to what you can do to adjust the sentence to remove ambiguity. This does not normally mean adding in any old commas where,,,,, you think a Pinter Pause is needed. (Maybe an ellipsis, in normal writing.) The fact that a grammatical comma may be where a spoken pause may crop up is not because the comma causes the pause. The verbal pause is (if not garbled out) caused by the same understanding of how clauses/etc require intoning under the circumstances.
:::But it is a rhetorical choice as to whether to intone "blood..., sweat... and tears" or "blood, sweat and... tears" or any number of other pausing strategies, as it is how you faithfully transcribe what has already been intoned. When merely listing these in text, your chosen style of grammar is the master. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.160.134|172.70.160.134]] 19:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::Commas can go in a number of places in lists, and, occasionally, after the word "and". [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 23:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
::Potentially, anything is possible... I can see how a sentence like "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and, bread being out of stock, oats" would work, but I really don't see how the commas after "and" could work ''in this sentence''. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 08:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

If each item in a list shall be followed by a comma then the MIT comma is quite proper. SDT [[Special:Contributions/172.68.245.206|172.68.245.206]] 05:11, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The UCLA comma may refer to the 8 clap, a chant at UCLA which is begins with a string of 8 claps. {{unsigned ip|172.68.205.178|07:33, 8 October 2024}}

I thought the UCLA & Michigan commas referred to quotes within citations. This isn't uncommon in literary studies, where you quote articles quoting books. Depending on your quotation style, this can result in a long string of 3-4 "commas" (as in: short lines in punctuation marks). If you place the quote between actual commas, make that 4-5. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 08:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the tirade against the Oxford comma in the article is not relevant for understanding the comic. "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God' does not" is not saying that Ayn Rand is the mother. To express that one should write "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and to God". Thus the ambiguity can be resolved. I believe one of the editors is mixing in their personal taste here. --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.160.71|172.71.160.71]] 09:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:Tirade? Hardly. It explains when it doesn't help (and when it might).
:And I think you misread. "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God' does not" indeed does not say that Ayn Rand is the mother. In fact it ''explicitly'' says that "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God'"... erm... does ''not'' say the thing that 'To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God' ''potentially'' does. (See table below.)
:The choice of how to disambiguate "my mother, who is Ayn Rand", as a concept, is another thing and has multiple options. Disambiguating in the direction of a simple list is the contention surrounding the Oxford(/Serial) Comma itself (it is, by definition, being used in the list format), given that some circumstances are most helped by it and others are most helped by its absence. If you're strongly for the OC, you'll hopefully rewrite problematic OCed formulations so that you can use it. If you're strongly against it you should change problamatic non-OCed versions so that you can better go without one. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.128|172.70.85.128]] 10:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Inspired (a bit) by the Three Laws permutation table, a set of possible ambiguations from the straight list...
{| class="wikitable"
!A !!B !!C !!"A, B and C" !!"A, B, and C"
|-
|my parents||Ayn Rand||God||"my parents (who are Ayn Rand and God)"||''list only''*
|-
|my parents||God||Ayn Rand||"my parents (who are God and Ayn Rand)"||''list only''*
|-
|Ayn Rand||my parents||God||''list only''* ||''list only''*
|-
|Ayn Rand||God||my parents||''list only''* ||"Ayn Rand (who is God), and my parents"
|-
|God||my parents||Ayn Rand||''list only''* ||''list only''*
|-
|God||Ayn Rand||my parents||''list only''* ||"God (who is Ayn Rand), and my parents"
|}
:-* - Assuming no other "All You Zombies" and/or divine incarnation scenarios.
:...maybe it's too early in the morning, but I'm sure I'm missing other ambiguities I've commented on before. (Without necesarily going into the asterisked territories.) Anyone want to amend this? [[Special:Contributions/172.68.186.105|172.68.186.105]] 09:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::Love it! [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 10:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::There's additional potential ambiguity if you go with the singular "my mother" as opposed to the plural "my parents". "My mother, Ayn Rand, and God" (with the Oxford comma) could be listing 2 separate entities while indicating that my mother is Ayn Rand, or could be listing 3 separate entities. "My mother, Ayn Rand and God" (without the Oxford comma) could be referring to a single entity while indicating that my mother is both Ayn Rand and God, or listing 3 separate entities. (In a phrase like, "My mother, Ayn Rand and God, gave it to me," the comma after God indicates that it's one entity, but you lose that clarity with "It was given to me by my mother, Ayn Rand and God." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.70.66|172.68.70.66]] 14:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:::What if my mother, Ayn Rand, and God are actually the trinity?[[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.87|172.69.195.87]] 08:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::::I myself, was fully expecting one of the examples given, to be: "To my God and mother, Ayn Rand". [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 15:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I realize that this comic focuses on University commas, however I feel that some mention should be made about the Walken Comma and the Shatner Comma! [[Special:Contributions/172.70.114.103|172.70.114.103]] 10:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:What, do you,    mean by,   that? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.106|172.69.195.106]] 13:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::Here's the explanation: [https://www.joeydevilla.com/2015/06/26/a-visual-guide-to-the-different-comma-styles/ Walken and Shatner Commas] [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.228|162.158.62.228]] 11:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

{{w|Mac and cheese}} is probably not well-known outside the US (especially not under that name). --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.160.115|172.71.160.115]] 13:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
:As usual, the Brits don't know how to name food. "Macaroni cheese" sounds like the macaroni is made of cheese. But I added an explanation and link to the Wikipedia page. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 14:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::Don't be silly, that would clearly be named "cheese macaroni". Macaroni cheese is clearly cheese for macaroni, and it's simply polite to serve macaroni to have it with as well. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.151.114|172.71.151.114]] 14:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
::: By the logic of your second interpretation, "cheese macaroni" is clearly macaroni for cheese. The lexical existence of this separate form of macaroni begs the question: what kind of macaroni goes best with macaroni cheese? The plain kind or cheese macaroni? The answer is neither! The best kind of macaroni to serve with macaroni cheese is clearly macaroni-cheese macaroni. But then what kind of cheese goes best with that? None other than (macaroni cheese)-macaroni cheese, which in turn is best served with ((macaroni cheese) macaroni)-cheese macaroni. This interleaving of macaroni and cheese never ends, meaning that no matter where you choose to stop, you will always end up with a sub-optimal pairing. So it's best to just not eat any form of cheese with any form of macaroni, to avoid disappointment. As an aside, the logic of your first interpretation implies that "macaroni cheese" is actually cheese that's made of macaroni. [[User:MelodiousThunk|MelodiousThunk]] ([[User talk:MelodiousThunk|talk]]) 12:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::As opposed to 'mac and cheese', which sounds like a particularly unappetising dish made using a waterproof coat.[[Special:Contributions/172.68.186.92|172.68.186.92]] 15:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Oddly, US English goes the other way with "grilled cheese", neglecting to mention that the cheese should be placed between slices of bread before grilling; in British English, it would generally be called a "cheese toastie". (Until looking it up, I was under the mistaken belief that it was a name for what we would call "cheese on toast", which also involves grilling the cheese, on the toast.) - [[User:IMSoP|IMSoP]] ([[User talk:IMSoP|talk]]) 21:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
:'Mac & cheese' is, sadly, probably more common in the UK now than the proper 'macaroni cheese'.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.47|141.101.99.47]] 08:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to the added red text in the Notation column, but it needs to be explained in the Explanation column. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.90.8|162.158.90.8]] 00:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Could this, at least in part, be about typography, not grammar and style? The depicted commas are not all the same. [[User:Divad27182|Divad27182]] ([[User talk:Divad27182|talk]]) 10:42, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, MIT is the home of the Rust language, which prominently uses trailing commas after the last item in a list as a matter of programming style.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.211|172.70.214.211]]

ABAP uses dots as end-of-command delimiters. {{unsigned ip|162.158.202.92|06:13, 11 October 2024}}

== ! UNRESOLVED VERSION CONFLICT ! ==
There has been a problem with different versions. I shifted a paragraph, but the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2995:_University_Commas&oldid=352624 version that got saved] had 1615 characters less than before. A whole lot of rambling had been removed from the explanation, but there was no version conflict warning and no other saved revision in the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2995:_University_Commas&action=history revision history]. I didn't want to take credit for the changes, though I appreciated them, so I undid my edit, then redid my shift of paragraphs, and hoped that the other editor would reconcile the versions. That didn't happen. I'm writing this note to draw attention to the "lost edit". [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 18:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

2995: University Commas

2024-10-10T23:19:56Z

Transgalactic: shifted the "Mac and cheese" explanation for better coherence

{{comic
| number = 2995
| date = October 7, 2024
| title = University Commas
| image = university_commas_2x.png
| imagesize = 580x273px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The distinctive 'UCLA comma' and 'Michigan comma' are a long string of commas at the start and end of the sentence respectively.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a STANFORD SEMICOLON - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

The use of commas in the English language is {{w|Comma#Uses in English|famously disputed}}, most relevantly among publishers and academics. This comic imagines that all possible (and some improbable) comma positions in an example sentence are associated with different universities. This applies to commas which should ''always'' be present in a list, optional commas elsewhere in the sentence (which have nothing to do with a list, such as after the word "please") and blatantly erroneous commas (which should ''never'' be present in a sentence, e.g. immediately prior to the {{w|full stop}}/period).

The Oxford comma (a.k.a. {{w|serial comma}} or, despite how this comic represents it, the ''actual'' Harvard comma) is a comma between the penultimate item in a list and its conjunction (typically ''and'' or ''or''), to echo all the commas (at least one) that act as {{w|Comma#List separator and the serial (Oxford) comma|placeholders for the conjunction}} in-between all prior members of the list. For instance, you might write "red, white, and blue" (with the Oxford comma) or "red, white and blue" (without it). Some style guides, such as ''{{w|The Oxford Style Manual}}'' published by {{w|Oxford University Press}}, (unsurprisingly) recommend using it, while other similarly authoritative guides recommend against it. Though even those with either recommendation may suggest its (non-)use in situations where this avoids an ambiguity arising from the normally recommended choice.

One {{w|Serial comma#Ambiguity|common example}} showing the need for an Oxford comma is "To my parents, Ayn Rand''',''' and God". Without the comma (as in: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"), it may read that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and God. If such confusion is to be avoided, reordering the list is a common way to avoid ambiguity, for example, "To Ayn Rand, God and my parents" is one such reordering. However, the use of an Oxford comma in this version might imply the deification of Ayn Rand. Conversely, if the sentence was instead to be "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God", with such a comma, there arises the possibility of an assertion that one's mother is Ayn Rand, whereas "To my mother, Ayn Rand and God" does not let one fall into that trap.

{{w|Macaroni and cheese}} (often shortened to "Mac and cheese" in the US and Canada) should be considered a single item in a list like this. When just two items are joined together, e.g. to name a compound food such as "peanut butter and jelly", "fish and chips" or "steak and eggs", a comma isn't placed before "and". It is in the use of such compounded items, as a singular list item, where some confusion can arise. Alternate forms ("fish'n'chips", "PB&J") can put emphasis upon the low-level linking of the components, the outer list can be rewritten (e.g. with semicolon separation) or the reader can be left to logically assume where such a commonly encountered pairing is not part of the wider list. A difference in conjunction can also help to clarify, as in "A good choice of breakfast is ham and eggs, sausage and eggs or sausage and beans, but not ham and beans", which is ''unlikely'' to be accidentally misunderstood (including as options such as "sausage + (eggs or additional sausage) + beans" or "sausage + ('non-ham' beans) + further beans").

In the most common interpretation the example sentence reads (with proper punctuation and bracketed Oxford comma): "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread."

However, most of the commas are possible punctuation marks in a specific pragmatic reading of the sentence:

{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|-
! Comma name !! Notation !! Explanation
|-
| Harvard comma || Please, buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Emphatic plea, marked by a sub-clause separator. (Note that "Harvard comma" is already a common synonym for the Oxford comma, in its context.)
{{w|Harvard University}} is one of eight {{w|Ivy League}} universities in the United States.
|-
| Yale comma || Please buy, apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A merchant's plea to their customer, marked by a sub-clause separator. This makes the sentence a sentence fragment but this is not uncommon in speech. The implication may be that the list of items are those for sale or that there is a promotion around those items specifically.
{{w|Yale University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Stanford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Stanford University}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States. It is located in Silicon Valley, a short distance from the headquarters of {{w|Apple Inc.}} The Stanford comma between "apples" and "mac" is probably necessary there to distinguish discussions of the food products from discussion of the computer products.
|-
| Columbia comma || Please buy apples, mac, and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A plea to buy apples, cheese, milk and bread, directed at a person called Mac, whose name is stylized as "mac".

Alternatively, a plea to buy apples, a raincoat, cheese, milk[,] and bread. The first 'and' would then be superfluous, but this could reflect the speaker adding the last two items in the moment to an initial request for the first three.

{{w|Columbia University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Cambridge comma || (Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese being unavailable, milk[,] and bread.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence. Also requires "mac" to be an item of its own, not a part of "mac and cheese".
The {{w|University of Cambridge}} is one of the two eponymous {{w|Oxbridge}} universities in the United Kingdom. Not to be confused with {{w|Cambridge, Massachusetts#Higher education|other establishments}} in (or originally in) Cambridge, Massachusetts.
|-
| Cornell comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Cornell University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States. It has {{w|Cornell Dairy|its own dairy farm}}, which is why the Cornell comma is placed between dairy products, "cheese" and "milk".
|-
| Oxford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and bread. || The {{w|Oxford comma}}, as discussed above, is a comma often used in lists (with more than two elements) to further separate the last two elements and thus attempt to avoid ambiguity. In this case, it is unlikely that there would be confusion as to how to interpret the given list, with or without this comma.
The {{w|University of Oxford}} is the other eponymous Oxbridge university in the United Kingdom.
|-
| Princeton comma || (Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and, bread being out of stock, oats.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence.
{{w|Princeton University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| MIT comma || (Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.) || Possible reference to [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11597901/why-are-trailing-commas-allowed-in-a-list trailing commas sometimes used in programming], which would be associated with a university highly specialized in technology. If each of these words were identifiers, then including all commas would be a valid way to express a list in some languages (though using a period to indicate the end of a list is uncommon). Specifically, MIT is home to the Rust programming language, which uses trailing commas for the last item of a list as a matter of programming style.
The {{w|Massachusetts Institute of Technology}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States.
|-
| UCLA/Michigan comma(s) || (,,,…,,,Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.,,,…,,,) || '''Title text proposal''', each establishment being perhaps responsible for both or either sets of commas. Can perhaps relate to rather specific quotation or quote-separation contexts not in common use.
The {{w|University of California, Los Angeles}} and the {{w|University of Michigan}} are two more well known universities in the United States.
|}

Depending upon who you talk to, the two establishments referenced by the title text may not be considered quite as prominent or outstanding as the Ivy League universities, or others mentioned here, hence their relegation to title text punchline. But (actual Ivy Leaguers) {{w|Brown University}}, {{w|Dartmouth College}} and the {{w|University of Pennsylvania}} were not referenced at all, for one reason or another; for example, the very idea of a "Brown comma" might more readily resonate with the concept of the {{w|Brown note}}.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[A sentence is written in greyed-out text, with the commas in black and each labeled with an arrow.]
:Please''',''' buy''',''' apples''',''' mac''',''' and''',''' cheese''',''' milk''',''' and''',''' bread''','''.

:[The labels are as follows, in order from left to right:]
:Harvard comma
:Yale comma
:Stanford comma
:Columbia comma
:Cambridge comma
:Cornell comma
:Oxford comma
:Princeton comma
:MIT comma

:[Caption below the panel:]
:The Oxford one is the most famous, but many major universities have their own comma.

==Trivia==
[[Randall]] appears to be a fairly regular user of the Serial/Oxford Comma himself, with the most recent example being in the title text of [[2985: Craters]]. This is clearly out of habit or preference, as it is not required for clarification purposes. Yet it seems he also appreciates the conflicting viewpoints inherent to such a style opinion. He later completely avoided the use of list-commas in a (three-part) list within the comic text of the successive [[2986: Every Scientific Field]], possibly for rhetorical reasons.

This very wiki currently reminds anyone editing a page that their contributions "may be edited, altered, or removed", which is also not a syntactical necessity beyond adherence to the Oxford styling. Later, in the same paragraph of text, it also uses structure of "…, or … or …", but for different grammatical reasons that are unrelated to serial/list commas.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]
[[Category:Language]]
[[Category:Food]]

2995: University Commas

2024-10-10T23:19:03Z

Transgalactic: Undo - there seems to have been a weird version conflict...

{{comic
| number = 2995
| date = October 7, 2024
| title = University Commas
| image = university_commas_2x.png
| imagesize = 580x273px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The distinctive 'UCLA comma' and 'Michigan comma' are a long string of commas at the start and end of the sentence respectively.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a STANFORD SEMICOLON - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

The use of commas in the English language is {{w|Comma#Uses in English|famously disputed}}, most relevantly among publishers and academics. This comic imagines that all possible (and some improbable) comma positions in an example sentence are associated with different universities. This applies to commas which should ''always'' be present in a list, optional commas elsewhere in the sentence (which have nothing to do with a list, such as after the word "please") and blatantly erroneous commas (which should ''never'' be present in a sentence, e.g. immediately prior to the {{w|full stop}}/period).

The Oxford comma (a.k.a. {{w|serial comma}} or, despite how this comic represents it, the ''actual'' Harvard comma) is a comma between the penultimate item in a list and its conjunction (typically ''and'' or ''or''), to echo all the commas (at least one) that act as {{w|Comma#List separator and the serial (Oxford) comma|placeholders for the conjunction}} in-between all prior members of the list. For instance, you might write "red, white, and blue" (with the Oxford comma) or "red, white and blue" (without it). Some style guides, such as ''{{w|The Oxford Style Manual}}'' published by {{w|Oxford University Press}}, (unsurprisingly) recommend using it, while other similarly authoritative guides recommend against it. Though even those with either recommendation may suggest its (non-)use in situations where this avoids an ambiguity arising from the normally recommended choice.

One {{w|Serial comma#Ambiguity|common example}} showing the need for an Oxford comma is "To my parents, Ayn Rand''',''' and God". Without the comma (as in: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"), it may read that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and God. If such confusion is to be avoided, reordering the list is a common way to avoid ambiguity, for example, "To Ayn Rand, God and my parents" is one such reordering. However, the use of an Oxford comma in this version might imply the deification of Ayn Rand. Conversely, if the sentence was instead to be "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God", with such a comma, there arises the possibility of an assertion that one's mother is Ayn Rand, whereas "To my mother, Ayn Rand and God" does not let one fall into that trap.

In the most common interpretation the example sentence reads (with proper punctuation and bracketed Oxford comma): "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread."

{{w|Macaroni and cheese}} (often shortened to "Mac and cheese" in the US and Canada) should be considered a single item in a list like this. When just two items are joined together, e.g. to name a compound food such as "peanut butter and jelly", "fish and chips" or "steak and eggs", a comma isn't placed before "and". It is in the use of such compounded items, as a singular list item, where some confusion can arise. Alternate forms ("fish'n'chips", "PB&J") can put emphasis upon the low-level linking of the components, the outer list can be rewritten (e.g. with semicolon separation) or the reader can be left to logically assume where such a commonly encountered pairing is not part of the wider list. A difference in conjunction can also help to clarify, as in "A good choice of breakfast is ham and eggs, sausage and eggs or sausage and beans, but not ham and beans", which is ''unlikely'' to be accidentally misunderstood (including as options such as "sausage + (eggs or additional sausage) + beans" or "sausage + ('non-ham' beans) + further beans").

However, most of the commas are possible punctuation marks in a specific pragmatic reading of the sentence:

{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|-
! Comma name !! Notation !! Explanation
|-
| Harvard comma || Please, buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Emphatic plea, marked by a sub-clause separator. (Note that "Harvard comma" is already a common synonym for the Oxford comma, in its context.)
{{w|Harvard University}} is one of eight {{w|Ivy League}} universities in the United States.
|-
| Yale comma || Please buy, apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A merchant's plea to their customer, marked by a sub-clause separator. This makes the sentence a sentence fragment but this is not uncommon in speech. The implication may be that the list of items are those for sale or that there is a promotion around those items specifically.
{{w|Yale University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Stanford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Stanford University}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States. It is located in Silicon Valley, a short distance from the headquarters of {{w|Apple Inc.}} The Stanford comma between "apples" and "mac" is probably necessary there to distinguish discussions of the food products from discussion of the computer products.
|-
| Columbia comma || Please buy apples, mac, and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A plea to buy apples, cheese, milk and bread, directed at a person called Mac, whose name is stylized as "mac".

Alternatively, a plea to buy apples, a raincoat, cheese, milk[,] and bread. The first 'and' would then be superfluous, but this could reflect the speaker adding the last two items in the moment to an initial request for the first three.

{{w|Columbia University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Cambridge comma || (Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese being unavailable, milk[,] and bread.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence. Also requires "mac" to be an item of its own, not a part of "mac and cheese".
The {{w|University of Cambridge}} is one of the two eponymous {{w|Oxbridge}} universities in the United Kingdom. Not to be confused with {{w|Cambridge, Massachusetts#Higher education|other establishments}} in (or originally in) Cambridge, Massachusetts.
|-
| Cornell comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Cornell University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States. It has {{w|Cornell Dairy|its own dairy farm}}, which is why the Cornell comma is placed between dairy products, "cheese" and "milk".
|-
| Oxford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and bread. || The {{w|Oxford comma}}, as discussed above, is a comma often used in lists (with more than two elements) to further separate the last two elements and thus attempt to avoid ambiguity. In this case, it is unlikely that there would be confusion as to how to interpret the given list, with or without this comma.
The {{w|University of Oxford}} is the other eponymous Oxbridge university in the United Kingdom.
|-
| Princeton comma || (Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and, bread being out of stock, oats.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence.
{{w|Princeton University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| MIT comma || (Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.) || Possible reference to [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11597901/why-are-trailing-commas-allowed-in-a-list trailing commas sometimes used in programming], which would be associated with a university highly specialized in technology. If each of these words were identifiers, then including all commas would be a valid way to express a list in some languages (though using a period to indicate the end of a list is uncommon). Specifically, MIT is home to the Rust programming language, which uses trailing commas for the last item of a list as a matter of programming style.
The {{w|Massachusetts Institute of Technology}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States.
|-
| UCLA/Michigan comma(s) || (,,,…,,,Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.,,,…,,,) || '''Title text proposal''', each establishment being perhaps responsible for both or either sets of commas. Can perhaps relate to rather specific quotation or quote-separation contexts not in common use.
The {{w|University of California, Los Angeles}} and the {{w|University of Michigan}} are two more well known universities in the United States.
|}

Depending upon who you talk to, the two establishments referenced by the title text may not be considered quite as prominent or outstanding as the Ivy League universities, or others mentioned here, hence their relegation to title text punchline. But (actual Ivy Leaguers) {{w|Brown University}}, {{w|Dartmouth College}} and the {{w|University of Pennsylvania}} were not referenced at all, for one reason or another; for example, the very idea of a "Brown comma" might more readily resonate with the concept of the {{w|Brown note}}.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[A sentence is written in greyed-out text, with the commas in black and each labeled with an arrow.]
:Please''',''' buy''',''' apples''',''' mac''',''' and''',''' cheese''',''' milk''',''' and''',''' bread''','''.

:[The labels are as follows, in order from left to right:]
:Harvard comma
:Yale comma
:Stanford comma
:Columbia comma
:Cambridge comma
:Cornell comma
:Oxford comma
:Princeton comma
:MIT comma

:[Caption below the panel:]
:The Oxford one is the most famous, but many major universities have their own comma.

==Trivia==
[[Randall]] appears to be a fairly regular user of the Serial/Oxford Comma himself, with the most recent example being in the title text of [[2985: Craters]]. This is clearly out of habit or preference, as it is not required for clarification purposes. Yet it seems he also appreciates the conflicting viewpoints inherent to such a style opinion. He later completely avoided the use of list-commas in a (three-part) list within the comic text of the successive [[2986: Every Scientific Field]], possibly for rhetorical reasons.

This very wiki currently reminds anyone editing a page that their contributions "may be edited, altered, or removed", which is also not a syntactical necessity beyond adherence to the Oxford styling. Later, in the same paragraph of text, it also uses structure of "…, or … or …", but for different grammatical reasons that are unrelated to serial/list commas.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]
[[Category:Language]]
[[Category:Food]]

2995: University Commas

2024-10-10T23:12:10Z

Transgalactic: shifted the "Mac and cheese" explanation for better coherence

{{comic
| number = 2995
| date = October 7, 2024
| title = University Commas
| image = university_commas_2x.png
| imagesize = 580x273px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The distinctive 'UCLA comma' and 'Michigan comma' are a long string of commas at the start and end of the sentence respectively.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by an OXFORD-TRAINED BOT COMMA - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

The use of commas in the English language is {{w|Comma#Uses in English|famously disputed}}, most relevantly among publishers and academics. This comic imagines that all possible (and impossible) comma positions in an example sentence are associated with different universities. This applies to commas which should ''always'' be present in a list, optional commas elsewhere in the sentence (which have nothing to do with a list, such as after the word "please") and blatantly erroneous commas (which should ''never'' be present in a sentence, e.g. immediately prior to the {{w|full stop}}/period).

The Oxford comma (a.k.a. {{w|Serial comma}} or, despite how this comic represents it, the ''actual'' Harvard comma) is a comma between the penultimate item in a list and its conjunction (typically ''and'' or ''or''), to echo all the commas (at least one) that act as {{w|Comma#List separator and the serial (Oxford) comma|placeholders for the conjunction}} in-between all prior members of the list. For instance, you might write "red, white, and blue" (with the Oxford comma) or "red, white and blue" (without it). Some style guides, such as ''{{w|The Oxford Style Manual}}'' published by {{w|Oxford University Press}}, (unsurprisingly) recommend using it, while other similarly authoritative guides recommend against it. Though even those with either recommendation may suggest its (non-)use in situations where this avoids an ambiguity arising from the normally recommended choice.

One {{w|Serial comma#Ambiguity|common example}} showing the need for an Oxford comma is "To my parents, Ayn Rand''',''' and God". Without the comma (as in: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"), it may read that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and God. If such confusion is to be avoided, reordering the list is a common way to avoid ambiguity, for example, "To Ayn Rand, God and my parents" is one such reordering. However, the use of an Oxford comma in this version might imply the deification of Ayn Rand.

Conversely, if the sentence was instead to be "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God", with such a comma, there arises the possibility of an assertion that one's mother is Ayn Rand, whereas "To my mother, Ayn Rand and God" does not let one fall into that trap.

"Mac and cheese" is a common short name for {{w|macaroni and cheese}} in the US and Canada. When we join two ingredients to name a compound food (e.g. peanut butter and jelly, fish and chips, or steak and eggs) we don't put a comma before "and".

In the most common interpretation the example sentence reads (with proper punctuation and bracketed Oxford comma): "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread."

However, most of the commas are possible punctuation marks in a specific pragmatic reading of the sentence:

{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|-
! Comma name !! Notation !! Explanation
|-
| Harvard comma || Please, buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Emphatic plea, marked by a sub-clause separator. (Note that "Harvard comma" is already a common synonym for the Oxford comma, in its context.)
{{w|Harvard University}} is one of eight {{w|Ivy League}} universities in the United States.
|-
| Yale comma || Please buy, apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A merchant's plea to their customer, marked by a sub-clause separator. This makes the sentence a sentence fragment but this is not uncommon in speech. The implication may be that the list of items are those for sale or that there is a promotion around those items specifically.
{{w|Yale University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Stanford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list. Without this comma, "apples" could be interpreted as an adjective to "mac and cheese".
{{w|Stanford University}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States.
|-
| Columbia comma || Please buy apples, mac, and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A plea to buy apples, cheese, milk and bread, directed at a person called Mac, whose name is stylized as "mac".
{{w|Columbia University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Cambridge comma || (Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese being unavailable, milk[,] and bread.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence. Also requires "mac" to be an item of its own, not a part of "mac and cheese".
The {{w|University of Cambridge}} is one of the two eponymous {{w|Oxbridge}} universities in the United Kingdom. Not to be confused with {{w|Cambridge, Massachusetts#Higher education|other establishments}} in (or originally in) Cambridge, Massachusetts.
|-
| Cornell comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Cornell University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Oxford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and bread. || {{w|Oxford comma}} is a comma often used in lists with more than 2 elements to separate the last two elements in case of ambiguity. In this case, it is unlikely that there would be confusion as to how to interpret the list with or without this comma.
The {{w|University of Oxford}} is the other eponymous Oxbridge university in the United Kingdom.
|-
| Princeton comma || (Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and, bread being out of stock, oats.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence.
{{w|Princeton University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| MIT comma || (Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.) || Possible reference to [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11597901/why-are-trailing-commas-allowed-in-a-list trailing commas sometimes used in programming], which would be associated with a university highly specialized in technology. If each of these words were identifiers, then including all commas would be a valid way to express a list in some languages (though using a period to indicate the end of a list is uncommon).
The {{w|Massachusetts Institute of Technology}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States.
|-
| UCLA/Michigan comma(s) || (,,,…,,,Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.,,,…,,,) || '''Title text proposal''', each establishment being perhaps responsible for both or either sets of commas. Can perhaps relate to rather specific quotation or quote-separation contexts not in common use.
The {{w|University of California, Los Angeles}} and the {{w|University of Michigan}} are two more well known universities in the United States.
|}

Depending upon who you talk to, the two establishments referenced by the title text may not be considered quite as prominent or outstanding as the Ivy League universities, or others mentioned here, hence their relegation to title text punchline. But (actual Ivy Leaguers) {{w|Brown University}}, {{w|Dartmouth College}} and the {{w|University of Pennsylvania}} were not referenced at all, for one reason or another; for example, the very idea of a "Brown comma" might more readily resonate with the concept of the {{w|Brown note}}.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[A sentence is written in greyed-out text, with the commas in black and each labeled with an arrow.]
:Please''',''' buy''',''' apples''',''' mac''',''' and''',''' cheese''',''' milk''',''' and''',''' bread''','''.

:[The labels are as follows, in order from left to right:]
:Harvard comma
:Yale comma
:Stanford comma
:Columbia comma
:Cambridge comma
:Cornell comma
:Oxford comma
:Princeton comma
:MIT comma

:[Caption below the panel:]
:The Oxford one is the most famous, but many major universities have their own comma.

==Trivia==
[[Randall]] appears to be a fairly regular user of the Serial/Oxford Comma, himself, with the most recent example being in the title text of [[2985: Craters]]. This is clearly out of habit or preference, as it is not required for clarification purposes. Yet it seems he also appreciates the conflicting viewpoints inherent to such a style opinion. He later completely avoided the use of list-commas in a (three-part) list within the comic text of the successive [[2986: Every Scientific Field]], possibly for rhetorical reasons.

This very wiki currently reminds anyone editing a page that their contributions "may be edited, altered, or removed", which is also not a syntactical necessity beyond adherence to the Oxford styling. Later, in the same paragraph of text, it also uses structure of "…, or … or …", but for different grammatical reasons that are unrelated to serial/list commas.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]
[[Category:Language]]

2995: University Commas

2024-10-10T23:08:58Z

Transgalactic: "apples" isn't an adjective. It can't even work as a pre-modifying adjunct to "mac and cheese". There is no such thing as "apples mac and cheese". Even if there were macaronis made of apples, grammatically they'd be "apple mac", like in "apple fries".

{{comic
| number = 2995
| date = October 7, 2024
| title = University Commas
| image = university_commas_2x.png
| imagesize = 580x273px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The distinctive 'UCLA comma' and 'Michigan comma' are a long string of commas at the start and end of the sentence respectively.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a STANFORD SEMICOLON - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

The use of commas in the English language is {{w|Comma#Uses in English|famously disputed}}, most relevantly among publishers and academics. This comic imagines that all possible (and some improbable) comma positions in an example sentence are associated with different universities. This applies to commas which should ''always'' be present in a list, optional commas elsewhere in the sentence (which have nothing to do with a list, such as after the word "please") and blatantly erroneous commas (which should ''never'' be present in a sentence, e.g. immediately prior to the {{w|full stop}}/period).

The Oxford comma (a.k.a. {{w|serial comma}} or, despite how this comic represents it, the ''actual'' Harvard comma) is a comma between the penultimate item in a list and its conjunction (typically ''and'' or ''or''), to echo all the commas (at least one) that act as {{w|Comma#List separator and the serial (Oxford) comma|placeholders for the conjunction}} in-between all prior members of the list. For instance, you might write "red, white, and blue" (with the Oxford comma) or "red, white and blue" (without it). Some style guides, such as ''{{w|The Oxford Style Manual}}'' published by {{w|Oxford University Press}}, (unsurprisingly) recommend using it, while other similarly authoritative guides recommend against it. Though even those with either recommendation may suggest its (non-)use in situations where this avoids an ambiguity arising from the normally recommended choice.

One {{w|Serial comma#Ambiguity|common example}} showing the need for an Oxford comma is "To my parents, Ayn Rand''',''' and God". Without the comma (as in: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"), it may read that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and God. If such confusion is to be avoided, reordering the list is a common way to avoid ambiguity, for example, "To Ayn Rand, God and my parents" is one such reordering. However, the use of an Oxford comma in this version might imply the deification of Ayn Rand. Conversely, if the sentence was instead to be "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God", with such a comma, there arises the possibility of an assertion that one's mother is Ayn Rand, whereas "To my mother, Ayn Rand and God" does not let one fall into that trap.

In the most common interpretation the example sentence reads (with proper punctuation and bracketed Oxford comma): "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread."

{{w|Macaroni and cheese}} (often shortened to "Mac and cheese" in the US and Canada) should be considered a single item in a list like this. When just two items are joined together, e.g. to name a compound food such as "peanut butter and jelly", "fish and chips" or "steak and eggs", a comma isn't placed before "and". It is in the use of such compounded items, as a singular list item, where some confusion can arise. Alternate forms ("fish'n'chips", "PB&J") can put emphasis upon the low-level linking of the components, the outer list can be rewritten (e.g. with semicolon separation) or the reader can be left to logically assume where such a commonly encountered pairing is not part of the wider list. A difference in conjunction can also help to clarify, as in "A good choice of breakfast is ham and eggs, sausage and eggs or sausage and beans, but not ham and beans", which is ''unlikely'' to be accidentally misunderstood (including as options such as "sausage + (eggs or additional sausage) + beans" or "sausage + ('non-ham' beans) + further beans").

However, most of the commas are possible punctuation marks in a specific pragmatic reading of the sentence:

{| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto"
|-
! Comma name !! Notation !! Explanation
|-
| Harvard comma || Please, buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Emphatic plea, marked by a sub-clause separator. (Note that "Harvard comma" is already a common synonym for the Oxford comma, in its context.)
{{w|Harvard University}} is one of eight {{w|Ivy League}} universities in the United States.
|-
| Yale comma || Please buy, apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A merchant's plea to their customer, marked by a sub-clause separator. This makes the sentence a sentence fragment but this is not uncommon in speech. The implication may be that the list of items are those for sale or that there is a promotion around those items specifically.
{{w|Yale University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Stanford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Stanford University}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States. It is located in Silicon Valley, a short distance from the headquarters of {{w|Apple Inc.}} The Stanford comma between "apples" and "mac" is probably necessary there to distinguish discussions of the food products from discussion of the computer products.
|-
| Columbia comma || Please buy apples, mac, and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || A plea to buy apples, cheese, milk and bread, directed at a person called Mac, whose name is stylized as "mac".

Alternatively, a plea to buy apples, a raincoat, cheese, milk[,] and bread. The first 'and' would then be superfluous, but this could reflect the speaker adding the last two items in the moment to an initial request for the first three.

{{w|Columbia University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| Cambridge comma || (Please buy apples, mac, and, cheese being unavailable, milk[,] and bread.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence. Also requires "mac" to be an item of its own, not a part of "mac and cheese".
The {{w|University of Cambridge}} is one of the two eponymous {{w|Oxbridge}} universities in the United Kingdom. Not to be confused with {{w|Cambridge, Massachusetts#Higher education|other establishments}} in (or originally in) Cambridge, Massachusetts.
|-
| Cornell comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and bread. || Mandatory separator in a list.
{{w|Cornell University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States. It has {{w|Cornell Dairy|its own dairy farm}}, which is why the Cornell comma is placed between dairy products, "cheese" and "milk".
|-
| Oxford comma || Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and bread. || The {{w|Oxford comma}}, as discussed above, is a comma often used in lists (with more than two elements) to further separate the last two elements and thus attempt to avoid ambiguity. In this case, it is unlikely that there would be confusion as to how to interpret the given list, with or without this comma.
The {{w|University of Oxford}} is the other eponymous Oxbridge university in the United Kingdom.
|-
| Princeton comma || (Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk[,] and, bread being out of stock, oats.) || Valid with a qualifying sub-clause; invalid in the example sentence.
{{w|Princeton University}} is one of eight Ivy League universities in the United States.
|-
| MIT comma || (Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.) || Possible reference to [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11597901/why-are-trailing-commas-allowed-in-a-list trailing commas sometimes used in programming], which would be associated with a university highly specialized in technology. If each of these words were identifiers, then including all commas would be a valid way to express a list in some languages (though using a period to indicate the end of a list is uncommon). Specifically, MIT is home to the Rust programming language, which uses trailing commas for the last item of a list as a matter of programming style.
The {{w|Massachusetts Institute of Technology}} is one of the prominent universities in the United States.
|-
| UCLA/Michigan comma(s) || (,,,…,,,Please, buy, apples, mac, and, cheese, milk, and, bread,.,,,…,,,) || '''Title text proposal''', each establishment being perhaps responsible for both or either sets of commas. Can perhaps relate to rather specific quotation or quote-separation contexts not in common use.
The {{w|University of California, Los Angeles}} and the {{w|University of Michigan}} are two more well known universities in the United States.
|}

Depending upon who you talk to, the two establishments referenced by the title text may not be considered quite as prominent or outstanding as the Ivy League universities, or others mentioned here, hence their relegation to title text punchline. But (actual Ivy Leaguers) {{w|Brown University}}, {{w|Dartmouth College}} and the {{w|University of Pennsylvania}} were not referenced at all, for one reason or another; for example, the very idea of a "Brown comma" might more readily resonate with the concept of the {{w|Brown note}}.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

:[A sentence is written in greyed-out text, with the commas in black and each labeled with an arrow.]
:Please''',''' buy''',''' apples''',''' mac''',''' and''',''' cheese''',''' milk''',''' and''',''' bread''','''.

:[The labels are as follows, in order from left to right:]
:Harvard comma
:Yale comma
:Stanford comma
:Columbia comma
:Cambridge comma
:Cornell comma
:Oxford comma
:Princeton comma
:MIT comma

:[Caption below the panel:]
:The Oxford one is the most famous, but many major universities have their own comma.

==Trivia==
[[Randall]] appears to be a fairly regular user of the Serial/Oxford Comma himself, with the most recent example being in the title text of [[2985: Craters]]. This is clearly out of habit or preference, as it is not required for clarification purposes. Yet it seems he also appreciates the conflicting viewpoints inherent to such a style opinion. He later completely avoided the use of list-commas in a (three-part) list within the comic text of the successive [[2986: Every Scientific Field]], possibly for rhetorical reasons.

This very wiki currently reminds anyone editing a page that their contributions "may be edited, altered, or removed", which is also not a syntactical necessity beyond adherence to the Oxford styling. Later, in the same paragraph of text, it also uses structure of "…, or … or …", but for different grammatical reasons that are unrelated to serial/list commas.

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics with lowercase text]]
[[Category:Language]]
[[Category:Food]]

Talk:2995: University Commas

2024-10-08T10:14:19Z

Transgalactic:

2995: University Commas

2024-10-08T10:12:18Z

Transgalactic: link to Wiki Oxford comma in table

2995: University Commas

2024-10-08T10:09:18Z

Transgalactic: decided to add the "bread being out of stock" example after all

2995: University Commas

2024-10-08T10:03:23Z

Transgalactic: reordered paragraphs => introduction-like paragraph comes first

2995: University Commas

2024-10-08T10:00:43Z

Transgalactic: added table with valid example sentences / integrated MIT comma explanation into the table for better overview / provided context for academic comma debates

Talk:2995: University Commas

2024-10-08T08:34:00Z

Transgalactic:

2977: Three Kinds of Research

2024-08-27T18:31:41Z

Transgalactic: repaired link "dark energy"

{{comic
| number = 2977
| date = August 26, 2024
| title = Three Kinds of Research
| image = three_kinds_of_research_2x.png
| imagesize = 501x306px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = The secret fourth kind is 'we applied a standard theory to their map of every tree and got some suspicious results.'
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a DEPTH-FIRST TREE RE-SEARCHER - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
In this comic, three types of research are presented. First, Cueball presents an analysis of an existing theory, testing to see if it holds up under unusual circumstances. Second, Lenheart presents a new theory, presumably an alternative to Cueball's. This new theory must first be proven to have merit, so it's tested on "standard" circumstances, presumably older data that the existing theories have already been tested on.

The punchline is a disheveled Hairy presenting the third kind of research: not a theory, but a survey that collects the data to test theories on. Rather than sit around his laboratory crunching numbers, Hairy has gotten deep in the weeds — literally, judging by the leaves stuck to his body — to somehow map out "every tree." How far his survey of "every tree" reaches isn't clear but it's implied to be a massive area such as most of the country or continent, raising his arms in exhausted triumph over the fact he's finally finished.

The comic thus presents a message about science: while it's perceived to be a high-minded affair with lots of very smart people performing calculations well over most people's heads, it still relies on getting down and dirty — again, literally in Hairy's case — with the rather basic challenges of measuring what the problems are to begin with.

The title text brings everything together by testing theories on the tree map. Though the reading has multiple interpretations: the "map of every tree" was manipulated or simply inaccurate, someone is messing with trees on a global level, or the tree survey methods and/or mapping techniques are challenged by this type of researcher.

For example, the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda-CDM_model|Lambda-CDM standard model of cosmology] could be 
1) confirmed or challenged by new empirical data on the distribution of galaxies, new simulations, or a mathematical thought experiment based on that model 
2) challenged by a new model that is better at explaining some oddities of the model, such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy dark energy] 
3) complemented with a survey of the timeline of everything in the universe :-) 
In this case the fourth kind of researcher would apply the cosmological standard model to the map of everything and find something suspicious.

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
:[A single panel with three separate drawings.]
:[Caption above the drawings:]
:The Three Kinds of Scientific Research:
:[Cueball is pointing to a scatter plot with a best-fit curve.]
:Cueball: We applied a standard theory to novel circumstances and got some surprising results.
:[Miss Lenhart is pointing to a similar scatter plot.]
:Miss Lenhart: We applied a novel theory to standard circumstances and got some intriguing results.
:[Hairy, with leaves in his messy hair and on his body, is pointing to another chart that is covered in random dots and unidentifiable shapes, while having both arms raised. Leaves are falling from him and are scattered on the ground at his feet. A stick is stuck in his hair.]
:Hairy: ''Finally, a map of every tree.''

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Comics featuring Cueball]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Miss Lenhart]]
[[Category:Comics featuring Hairy]]
[[Category:Scientific research]]

Talk:2977: Three Kinds of Research

2024-08-27T12:35:59Z

Transgalactic: fed the troll

Aren't there two missing ones: standard model+standard circumstances (i.e. remembering you have to have something to turn in and it's the night before the science fair) and novel theory+novel circumstances (i.e. what if the universe is actually a seven dimensional tuna salad sandwich?) [[User:RegularSizedGuy|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy|talk]]) 04:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
:ah, but that isn't ''professional'' research. [[user talk:lettherebedarklight|youtu.be/miLcaqq2Zpk]] 06:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Research type 5: guys I think Randall might be a Zionist (source: he supports Harris, of course he is)

[[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.19|172.70.85.19]] 11:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
: Nah, that's more like an ex-researcher close to retirement who can't stop droning on about their pet topic, without any interest in new perspectives or insights. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 12:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry what [[Special:Contributions/172.69.70.104|172.69.70.104]] 12:23, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

2977: Three Kinds of Research

2024-08-27T12:20:25Z

Transgalactic: added Lambda-CDM model example & title text interpretation

Talk:2974: Storage Tanks

2024-08-21T16:57:05Z

Transgalactic:

The symmetry of the truss intrigues me. Struts that are diagonal across the faces of the cuboids is normal, but is it a real thing to also use the body diagonal? Never seen that IRL, not sure if it makes sense from the statics. --[[Special:Contributions/172.70.247.82|172.70.247.82]] 22:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
: Struts as shown provide some left-right stability, but not as effectively as struts across the face would. They also provide some redundant front-back stability with the struts running along the faces. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.71.90|172.68.71.90]] 14:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
: I mentally modeled the flexibility modes, and it very much depends upon whether the verticals are solid (with their resistence to bending playing a big part alongside the incident horizontals'/diagonals' exactvmethod of attachment) or are just sections of rod between a suitable receiver-'node' at each junction.
: in particular, the strength of any one of the three 'boxes' (each level between adjacent horizontal cross-sectional perimeters) is somewhat less secure, as a single level can 'fold' sideways over each side's vertical-diagonal strut (along with the respective front/back horizontals, held 'square' by the internal cross-brscing). Only the continuation and linking with the other 'boxes' really guarantees any innate stability, and if each node is free-twisting then the likely first result of any failure is that the tower topples forwards and/or backwards as it folds up due to the unbraced facing and hindside quadrilaterals.
: But it does depend a lot upon the exact nature of the linkages (which can only be guessed at), and other failure-modes could involve node-slippage if they merely grip the cross-braces to the entirely top-to-bottom poles and there's potential for sliding there instead of primarily rotation (or over-stressed failure in any given length of rod).
: The support (or additional pressure) provided by the access staircase is also probably a factor. It could even be the most important bit in holding it up! ...if firmly anchored at the other end and robust enough in itself.
: I'd definitely add other diagonals (including opposite-type body-diagonals, perhaps tied to the existing one as they pass right across each other), just to be sure. The more the better, of course, but there's probably a limit through diminishing concerns. And too many diagonals primarily in a helical pattern could concentrate forces into a particular type of rotational failure if you also add too much brace-weight in doing so. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.163.120|172.70.163.120]] 15:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a pretty menial job for the "head of security". I think he would delegate this to a security guard. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 00:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
: They may be head of a department of one.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.139|172.70.85.139]] 08:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
:: That's part of the joke, that the #1 concern of the Head of Security is calculus teachers wielding power drills for class demonstrations. [[User:Laser813|Laser813]] ([[User talk:Laser813|talk]]) 17:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The explanation mentions there might be more complex calculus examples where the shape might not be a cylinder. I think some further explanation could be added that this does not change the pressure (hydrostatic paradox) but indeed change the rate of emptying the object. If differing cross sections are relevant at all. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.221.103|108.162.221.103]] 05:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
: Non-prismatic geometries are I think the ones being alluded to here, i.e a frustrum with the pointy end down will have a greater reduction in pressure for a given volume of flow towards the end than at the start, which may offset the reduction in absolute pressure. I've also seen examples where the flow rate is considered constant and the problem is to work out the fluid depth as a function of time, e.g. filling a pyramidal pool from a hose. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.58.4|172.70.58.4]] 16:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Its the most difficult job in history, even the best workers couldn't stand 1 day as head of security.[[User:I HAVE NO NAME|I HAVE NO NAME]] ([[User talk:I HAVE NO NAME|talk]]) 05:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I have to admit, I thought I knew calc as I had two semesters of it, but I had to look up what he meant by this. Ouch [[Special:Contributions/172.70.242.55|172.70.242.55]] 13:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)student

If anyone could suggest something I can do for my class now that I can no longer drill holes in tanks, I'd appreciate the advice, thanks. [[User:Fephisto|Fephisto]] ([[User talk:Fephisto|talk]]) 16:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Someone should do the math on the calculus problem as presented, as well as the algebra version. [[User:Laser813|Laser813]] ([[User talk:Laser813|talk]]) 17:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
: Randall, like all good mathematics textbook authors, left the problem as an exercise for the reader. Does this happen often enough to warrant a tag? [[User:Paddles|Paddles]] ([[User talk:Paddles|talk]]) 05:57, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
:: Yes... [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 10:10, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Is there anyone else who thought the calculus teacher was abusing the tank as a model for the complex plane, demonstrating how to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removable_singularity remove a singularity] from a holomorphic function by puncturing the plane? I wasn't confronted with that particular tank-emptying problem in high school, so my first encounter with "holes" in maths was in complex analysis. The title text was a mystery. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 10:10, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

As a mathematician, I'm surprised I didn't know about this idea. (It's definitely not my field!) I actually thought the flow would be constant, an algebraic problem. Oh, I'm sure I saw these types of problems in Calculus (and I remember problems like this in Differential Equations), but I thought those were just to make the math more complicated, not based in reality... So is it the weight of the liquid remaining above the hole that is the source of the pressure (i.e., would it be the same if the top of the tank were open), or is it the air pressure in the tank as the volume of liquid decreases and volume of air increases? [[User:Mathmannix|Mathmannix]] ([[User talk:Mathmannix|talk]]) 11:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
:A sealed-top would change the dynamics (like trying to pour the contents of a 2 litre (or whatever the US equivalent is) pop/soda bottle, it will tend to 'glug glug glug' intermittently unless you: a) incline the bottle to allow an optimum amount lf free akr back into the emltying bottle or, b) initialise the up-ended emptying with a spin sufficient to create a 'waterspout' effect up through which the replacement air can (more) freely pass.
:Though there are other possible factors, in that example, including the potential pressure of any self-releasing carbonation pressure (e.g. giving the bottle a shake, or a foreign body, before releasing the 'pour') and/or squeezing/'milking' the soft plastic container strategically to create another form of pressurised expulsion.
:For the 'classical' problem, one should probably assume sufficient inward venting (either an open/part-open top or a second hole drilled near the top to effect this purpose) as well as a reasonably unexotic liquid (neither molasses, cornstarch-mixture, anything that is actually a very fine dry powder, anything that reacts significantly with/upon air, any liquid very close to its vapour-point nor ''specifically'' supercooled helium) or any additional elements (stirrers, baffles, spongey inners, inner membranes or the contents being a layered combination of imiscable liquids of different densities that may or may not react slightly all across the interface plane). Most things that aren't actually exotic (and even a few that are, and might warrant a warning /¡\) are close enough to water to treat as if just that, at least under the further assumption that we're working at or around Standard Temperature and Pressure. But a slightly different density, viscosity and surface tension (plus the nature of the container, e.g. extreme hydrophilic or hydrophobic inner coatings where water is involved) ''could'' (in combination) drastically change the actual outcome given enough of the right kind of simultaneous differences imparted. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.37|172.70.86.37]] 14:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2974: Storage Tanks

2024-08-21T10:10:34Z

Transgalactic: holes in the complex plane

Talk:2934: Bloom Filter

2024-05-18T11:27:00Z

Transgalactic:

It certaintly does contain a thing. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.74|172.68.23.74]] 00:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The title text deals with inaccuracies in determining whether you have chosen the right programming tool for your membership query (or some different task), not just inaccuracies in the Bloom filter as one of these tools. This analogy remains unexplained. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 11:24, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2934: Bloom Filter

2024-05-18T11:24:57Z

Transgalactic:

It certaintly does contain a thing. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.23.74|172.68.23.74]] 00:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The title text deals with inaccuracies in determining whether you have chosen the right programming tool for your membership query (or some different task), not only about inaccuracies in the Bloom filter as one of these tools. This analogy remains unexplained. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 11:24, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2903: Earth/Venus Venn Diagram

2024-03-19T21:53:52Z

Transgalactic:

See also [[2721: Euler Diagrams]] [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.49|108.162.245.49]] 07:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this also a sexual innuendo? I mean... shock waves producing ejecta? Venus? anyone? {{unsigned ip|162.158.189.33}}
:Sure, as always it is only mentioned, whenever there is not a sexual innuendo by scientists, as collisions and planets and diagrams turn them on. Sebastian --[[Special:Contributions/172.68.110.65|172.68.110.65]] 11:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
::That is really funny. But no there is no sexual reference in a collision between planets. What is in the middle is what would happen in the collision zone. Venus is the name of a planet here... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 12:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
:::All a matter of perspective - depends how Earthy your interpretation is.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.242.176|172.71.242.176]] 14:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Rename the "Venus" circle to "Theia" and you get [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant-impact_hypothesis The Giant-impact hypothesis] for the creation of the Moon. [[User:Meteo|Meteo]] ([[User talk:Meteo|talk]]) 13:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't get this at first, but I broke down laughing once I did, I can't quite pinpoint why but this is top tier xkcd right here. [[User:Terdragontra|Terdragontra]] ([[User talk:Terdragontra|talk]]) 19:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The "Citation Needed" on "This Would Be Dangerous" is killing me. [[User:OmniDoom|OmniDoom]] ([[User talk:OmniDoom|talk]]) 01:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
: Minor update, just read [[285: Wikipedian Protester]] and that just makes everything even better. [[User:OmniDoom|OmniDoom]] ([[User talk:OmniDoom|talk]]) 01:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

who tf keeps vandalising this place--[[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.24|162.158.74.24]] 11:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

:idk, but it's not funny. --[[User:1234231587678|1234231587678]] ([[User talk:1234231587678|talk]]) 20:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
::fr. like, JUST STOP IT ITS USELESS AND ANNOYING [[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]] ([[User talk:42.book.addict|talk]]) 21:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The Venn diagram explanation sounds flawed: ''"As a Venn diagram, it shows that there is a region of one sphere that is still recognizably Earth, a region of the other that is still recognizably Venus, and a region common to both that consists of "shockwaves and production of impact ejecta," and that this area of overlap is now neither Earth nor Venus, but an intermingled combination of the two."''
- But a Venn diagram is about logical relations, so the shapes and sizes of the areas are irrelevant. To me, that's the whole point of the joke, that it's really hard to see a drawing of round planets when your mind is trained to see a drawing of abstract logical relations under the title "Earth/Venus Venn Diagram". (Like, I stared at the comic blankly for minutes, thinking, why the heck should Earth and Venus only have shock waves and impact ejecta in common...) [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 16:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
:The fact that Venus and Earth have, in a fact-only reading, potentially more things in common isn't really an issue. That would presuppose that Venn and/or Euler diagrams must show everything possible in any given (possibly composite) region. Although the Venn must have a sub-region for every possible combination of possibilities (or none), and the Euler must have one for every combination (of featured sets) that has an item requiring placing, you don't need to place every possible entity anywhere it can be. (You ''can'', by logic, e.g. the subsets A-and-not-B, B-and-not-A, A-and-B and neither-A-nor-B in an A+B diagram, but even then you don't need to give C and not-C additional). Something that might feature in both Earth and Venus (logically, like... solar neutrinos? the remains of some of earth's spacecraft?) could be placed there, but we also don't list all the things in neither (ice volcanos, the Greater Magellanic Cloud, colourless green ideas sleeping furiously) in the surrounding not-either space.
::ok, I get it, I should have written, "why should Earth and Venus' ''most relevant'' commonalities be shock waves etc." [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
:Anyway, this is more a case of the joke. You see a diagram, perhaps others see a representation of a collision (and argue that the shockwave is probably not confined to the combined "volume that was" of both bodies, and impact ejecta is probably jetting out of the collision zone (well into space, and some is probably raining down on the 'safe' edges of the respective planets - all in all just adding to the current problems, though it's doubtful that it changes the ultimate fate of everyone, or not, if they have sturdy enough umbrellas). And it works (FCVO 'work') for both viewpoints. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.220|172.70.90.220]] 19:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
::I don't see how this answers my point, so I edited the explanation to clarify the difference between the illustration of an Earth/Venus collision and the representation of Earth/Venus logical relations. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to break it to you, guys, but a Venn diagram cannot show a "collision moment". It's about abstract relations of commonality and difference. In this case we can infer that the diagram can only apply during a collision event, but the Venn diagram doesn't actually say so. If you feel that talking about separate "Venus" and "Earth" entities etc. is overly complicated language, fine, find a way to cut away the clutter, but please don't turn the whole explanation of the Venn diagram into an explanation of something that isn't a Venn diagram. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 21:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2908: Moon Armor Index

2024-03-19T21:30:14Z

Transgalactic: Gravitational compression effects troubles

Can someone hurry up/w the explanation?[[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.162|162.158.159.162]] 22:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
:Did it :) --[[User:1234231587678|1234231587678]] ([[User talk:1234231587678|talk]]) 00:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

According to https://sl.bing.net/kR6wrqrekg0 it would be 43.1 meters. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.174.117|172.70.174.117]] 23:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Bing was wrong, it screwed up the units [[Special:Contributions/172.70.38.181|172.70.38.181]] 23:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)!

Anyone figure out if this takes the recently-discovered moons into account? I'd expect as much but it would make a good addition to the explanation. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.131.155|172.70.131.155]] 01:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
:The new moon around Uranus is 8 km in diameter, and the moons around Neptune are 23 km and 14 km in diameter. The inventory of outer moons is believed to be complete down to 2 km for Jupiter, 3 km for Saturn, 8 km for Uranus, and 14 km for Neptune. And the total combined mass of smaller moons (e.g. in Saturn's rings) is also constrained.

:All these moons are round, and thus approximately ball-shaped. The volume of a 3-ball with radius r₀ is 4⁄3 πr₀³. Uranus and Neptune are also approximately ball-shaped with radii of 25,559 km and 15,299 km, respectively. (I don't know exactly how these radii are defined, but I assume optically. Uranus and Neptune don't have solid surfaces.) The volume of a spherical shell is just the difference of the outer and inner spheres, so 4⁄3 π(R³−r³) if the outer radius is R and the inner radius is r. These volumes are equal if the whole moon is converted into a spherical shell. So for Uranus, we have 4⁄3 πr₀³ = 4⁄3 π(R³−r³), where r₀ is the radius of the moon, r is the radius of Uranus, and R−r is the thickness of the shell. Solving gives R−r = ³√(r₀³+r³)−r. Plugging in r₀ = 8 km and r = 25,559 km gives R−r = 0.26 mm. If we laid it on top of the other moons instead of the "surface" of Uranus itself, it would make practically no difference. Doing the same calculation for each newly-discovered moon of Neptune gives thicknesses of 17 mm and 3.9 mm (for a total of 21 mm).

:In other words, they are tiny rounding errors. [[User:EebstertheGreat|EebstertheGreat]] ([[User talk:EebstertheGreat|talk]]) 03:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
::Not for Pluto, it seems... small planet, huge moon. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 21:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I like that turning the Moon into a spherical shell coating the Earth is not definitely stated to be impossible with current technology. There's so much hedging going on I feel like I'm trapped in a maze in ''The Shining.'' [[User:EebstertheGreat|EebstertheGreat]] ([[User talk:EebstertheGreat|talk]]) 03:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The formula used seems to give the instantaneous technical distance, but in reality, there would be a rate of change of the surface area of the planet as each layer of thickness x was added. Does anyone know if this is significant with the distances we are talking, or does it just turn out to be a rounding error? [[Special:Contributions/172.68.0.254|172.68.0.254]] 03:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
:For most, I suspect it is indeed the roundingest of rounding errors. Obviously, Earth+Moon and Pluto+(Charon+the others) would be the most ''out'', but subtending difference of area at (say) sea-level radius and sea-level plus 43km doesn't sound like much to account for.
:A=4πr², so Adif of A2-A1 would be (4πr2²)-(4πr1²) or 4π(r2²-r1²) ((which looks like you could work it out as a pythogorean calculation, i.e. model a new line-length that would go at a tangent out from r1 until it hits the endpoint of the r2 radius elsewhere ... but that's probably not useful!)).
:Given Earth at a normal 6371km (between equatorial and polar radii, to simplify as a true sphere), Earth+Moon therefore 6371+43 (using figure stated by comic), that gives ...if I've done it right... now an extra 7 million km² on top of the roughly 510 million that it normally has. An increment of 5%, by the time you start spreading your arbitrarily thin final layer (so approximate back to being 2.5% extra by volume, without actually using Eebster's alternate direct shell-volume calculation or doing an integration).
:Pluto (saying 44km of layering, as slightly more than Earth's 'pile', on its far smaller radius) isn't that much more 'off'. It would increase the surface by about 8% (so says my mental arithmatic, at least) so maybe 4% more volume than a "flat surface raised up prismatically".
:(Not quite the same as "wrap a string around a tennis ball, add an inch to its length, what is its additional radius? / wrap a string around the Earth, add an inch ..." sort of thing, due to the extra dimensionality involved, but I don't feel like doing the full algebraic differentiations necessary to establish the trend of departure.).
:It certainly initially looks like the '≈'ing of the result holds fairly well under even the two most extreme examples (cases of particularly large moons-by-volume). And, at a certain point, a planet's (single largest) moon cannot be made bigger without drifting into double-planet territory (indeed, Pluto/Charon may be considered double-dwarfs!), and then, soon after, you're switching their roles around and dismantling the 'planet' (really a moon) to armour the 'moon' (now the planet). So that probably suggests we're at our limit, with twin-binary capping our one-satellite scenarios, until you get into 'busy' N-ary systems with many not-insignificant moons but somehow an identifiable 'main body' planet in the midst of them.
:I don't think "armour the Sun with all the planets (''and'' their moons), dwarf-planets, minor-planets, random detritus, etc" will strain that relationship. Top of my head estimate is that it'd be nowhere near as high as Earth/Pluto examples, if the Oort cloud isn't oddly massive in total. But someone can correct me if I've goofed or overly hand-waved something. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.118|172.69.195.118]] 06:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad there are at least links to them, but shouldn’t there be at least ONE sentence HERE on explainxkcd saying what the heck the last five ‘worlds’ are? I’d bet that’s what most people needing an explanation come here to find out! and all there are are links. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.186.98|162.158.186.98]] 09:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
:I added a sentence about the trans-Neptunian dwarf planets. But I don't know why Randall left out Makemake, Orcus and Sedna... any hypotheses? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 12:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
::I don't know this for a fact, but is it possible that those objects have no known moons to contribute any armor thickness? [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 13:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Imagining (especially) the gas planet examples, and some sort of mechanical means (partly overlapping plates of 'moon armour', that can slide over each other, remaining gas-tight?) allowing free vertical moment, I'm wondering how much the shell could contain and actually compress the predominantly atmospheric mass below it. Not being in orbit (perhaps give it the nominal gas-cloud spin), having chosen the amount of atmosphere it sits upon it'll not really be held up by the previously uncapped atmosphere, but as it falls inwards it must eventually pressurise the volume within until it equalises against the hermetic (and magically balanced, to not crumple and fold inwards irregularly) shielding material... [[Special:Contributions/172.69.194.21|172.69.194.21]] 16:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Now, the real challenge is doing it quickly - that is, on noticing danger, armor the planet, then dearmor and rebuild the moon when danger passes. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 20:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I thought I was being very clever when I added the gravitational compression effects, because some tiny moons have a low density, and some of them aren't remotely as solid as the Earth's Moon because they only formed from separate rocks quite recently. But then someone applied this thought to the planet itself, where I feel (without any motivation to do the math) that such effects should be utterly negligible 5 billion years after the solar system's formative period... (though, who knows what else Pluto/Charon hold in store??) So: I'm not sure if the bit in brackets about the minuscule gravitational compression effect on the host planet should stay in the explanation. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 21:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

2908: Moon Armor Index

2024-03-19T21:21:46Z

Transgalactic: Cleaned up & overhauled clumsy compression effect, introduction to approximation & image transcript sentences

{{comic
| number = 2908
| date = March 18, 2024
| title = Moon Armor Index
| image = moon_armor_index_2x.png
| imagesize = 740x390px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = Astronomers are a little unsure of the applicability of this index, but NASA's Planetary Protection Officer is all in favor.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a ROCK-LOVING MOON ARMOR SAMURAI BOT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

In this comic, [[Randall]] hypothesizes a situation in which each planet's moons were converted into protective armor to coat their respective planets. For example, the {{w|Moon}} would coat {{w|Earth}} in a 43 kilometer layer if it were molded into protective armor for the planet. It is unknown how the moons would be converted into armor, but with current technology, this would be highly impractical, if not impossible.{{citation needed}} It is also unclear how planets such as Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune, which are gas giants and thus have no solid surface, would sustain such a layer of armor, nor is it immediately evident what threat might necessitate such drastic measures. A 43km moon rock layer might in fact endanger life on Earth by blocking out the sun and impacting ecosystems, rather than protecting it.

Mars's moons {{w|Phobos_(moon)|Phobos}} and {{w|Deimos_(moon)|Deimos}}, being very small compared to Mars, would make a very thin layer over Mars. Huge Jupiter would be covered with almost 3km of "moon", which indicates just how much moon mass there is around Jupiter. This is, to a smaller degree, similar for Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

Some trans-Neptunian {{w|Dwarf_planet|dwarf planets}} and dwarf planet candidates are included, as well: Only Pluto, having a moon ({{w|Charon_(moon)|Charon}}) of a comparable size to its planet, would have a layer thicker than Earth's. {{w|120347 Salacia|Salacia}}, {{w|Haumea}}, {{w|50000 Quaoar|Quaoar}}, {{w|225088 Gonggong|Gonggong}} and {{w|Eris (dwarf planet)|Eris}} are among the {{w|List_of_trans-Neptunian_objects#List|ten largest such objects}}. However, {{w|Makemake}} and {{w|90482 Orcus|Orcus}} are not included in this comic, despite both being known to have an available moon.

The comic uses the ≈ sign to show that the formula is only an approximation: it does not take account of the increase in armor surface area as it gets thicker. This approximation would be perfect for a shield of thickness zero, but for the thickest shield (Pluto) around a small celestial body the error is around 4% (52.5 km by approximation, but 50.4 km by calculation). If P, M and A are the Planet radius, Moon radius and Armour thickness respectively, we can use V(P+A) = V(P) + V(M) to get A^3 + (3P)A^2 + (3P^2)A - C^3 = 0 and then solve the cubic to make an accurate calculation. For multiple moons, this calculation can be used repeatedly to armor each moon with the previous moon, before using the final moon-conglomerate to armor the planet. Gravitational compression effects are not taken into account either. The planet's gravitational pull could settle some of the moon's material into a slightly smaller volume than the one it occupies in its separate lunar gravitational field. (And the planet below could be marginally affected by the change in its total planet + armor mass, too.)

The title text states that astronomers are "unsure" about the applicability of protective armor made from moons, possibly because they are wary of {{w|Giant-impact_hypothesis|moons and planets getting too close}}. It is dubious whether there would be an actual increase in planet safety due to the procedure. Moons as they are already serve a protective purpose by deflecting incoming asteroids, and by covering a small portion of sky.

The title text continues that NASA's [https://what-if.xkcd.com/117/ Planetary Protection Officer], whose job it is indeed to protect planets, is purportedly in favor of the idea. However, they are in fact responsible for keeping other celestial bodies safe from Earth's contamination, not for shielding planets in armor, as the title text suggests. There is no known method of shielding other planets from contamination by physically armoring them. {{citation needed}}

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Planet/ dwarf planet !! Surface area (km²) || Moons || Volume (km³) || Moon shield thickness 
|-
| {{w|Earth}} || 5.1007*10^8 || {{w|Moon|1}} || 2.196*10^10 || 43 km (27 mi)
|-
| {{w|Mars}} || 1.4437*10^8 || {{w|Moons of Mars|2}} || {{w|Phobos (moon)|(5695±32)}}+{{w|Deimos (moon)|(1033±19)}} || 5 cm (2 in)
|-
| {{w|Jupiter}} || 6.1469*10^10 || {{w|Moons of Jupiter|95}} || 1.7646*10^11 || 2.87 km (1.78 mi)
|-
| {{w|Saturn}} || 4.27*10^10 || {{w|Moons of Saturn|146}} || 7.651*10^10 || 1.79 km (1.11 mi)
|-
| {{w|Uranus}} || 8.1156*10^9 || {{w|Moons of Uranus|28}} || ||
|-
| {{w|Neptune}} || 7.6187*10^9 || {{w|Moons of Neptune|16}} || ||
|-
| {{w|Pluto}} || 1.7744*10^7 || {{w|Moons of Pluto|5}} || {{w|Charon (moon)|(9.322×10^8)}}+{{w|Moons of Pluto|(approx 87100+38800+900+200)}} || 52.5 km (32.6 mi) (by XKCD)
50.4 km (31.3 mi) (by full calculation)
|-
| {{w|120347 Salacia|Salacia}} || 2.27*10^6 || {{w|Actaea (moon)|1}} || 1.41*10^7 || 6.21 km (3.85 mi)
|-
| {{w|Haumea}} || 8.14*10^6 || {{w|Moons of Haumea|2}} || {{w|Hiʻiaka (moon)
|(17.2*10^6)}}+{{w|Namaka (moon)|(2.57*10^6)}} || 2.43 km (1.51 mi)
|-
| {{w|50000 Quaoar|Quaoar}} || 3.78*10^6 || {{w|Weywot|1}} || 4.19*10^6 || 1.11 km (0.69 mi)
|-
| {{w|225088 Gonggong|Gonggong}} || || {{w|Xiangliu (moon)|1}} || ||
|-
| {{w|Eris (dwarf planet)|Eris}} || (1.70±0.02)*10^7 || {{w|Dysnomia (moon)|1}} || ||
|}

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
:[Text above diagram:]
:Moon armor index:
:How thick the shells around various worlds would be if their moon(s) were converted into protective armor
:≈Total moon volume/Planet surface area

:[Above the diagram, there is a depiction of two moons orbiting a planet, an arrow pointing right, and the same planet with an additional layer around it without orbiting moons.]

:[The diagram consists of vertical bars showing "moon armor" thicknesses for the Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Salacia, Haumea, Quaoar, Gonggong and Eris. Earth's bar has a label named "43 km thick" and is compared to the height of a comparatively small Mt Everest, with randomly drawn features indicating a cross section of the additional layer's rocky material. Most of the other armor thickness bars are not very tall compared to Earth. Some bars, notably Jupiter's, are embellished with various strata-like lines that possibly correspond to different contributing moons. Most bars show some small dots and patterns. A circular viewport shows the zoomed in detail of the top of Mars's otherwise not visible bar that reveals a thin layer with the label of 2", and also the bottom of a Mars rover wheel on top of the new surface. Pluto's bar is slightly taller than Earth's and has a label "(Mostly Charon)" inside, with arrows pointing into the bar area, which looks similar to that of Earth's Moon.]

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Astronomy]]
[[Category:Bar charts]]

Talk:2908: Moon Armor Index

2024-03-19T12:20:35Z

Transgalactic:

Can someone hurry up/w the explanation?[[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.162|162.158.159.162]] 22:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
:Did it :) --[[User:1234231587678|1234231587678]] ([[User talk:1234231587678|talk]]) 00:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

According to https://sl.bing.net/kR6wrqrekg0 it would be 43.1 meters. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.174.117|172.70.174.117]] 23:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Bing was wrong, it screwed up the units [[Special:Contributions/172.70.38.181|172.70.38.181]] 23:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)!

Anyone figure out if this takes the recently-discovered moons into account? I'd expect as much but it would make a good addition to the explanation. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.131.155|172.70.131.155]] 01:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
:The new moon around Uranus is 8 km in diameter, and the moons around Neptune are 23 km and 14 km in diameter. The inventory of outer moons is believed to be complete down to 2 km for Jupiter, 3 km for Saturn, 8 km for Uranus, and 14 km for Neptune. And the total combined mass of smaller moons (e.g. in Saturn's rings) is also constrained.

:All these moons are round, and thus approximately ball-shaped. The volume of a 3-ball with radius r₀ is 4⁄3 πr₀³. Uranus and Neptune are also approximately ball-shaped with radii of 25,559 km and 15,299 km, respectively. (I don't know exactly how these radii are defined, but I assume optically. Uranus and Neptune don't have solid surfaces.) The volume of a spherical shell is just the difference of the outer and inner spheres, so 4⁄3 π(R³−r³) if the outer radius is R and the inner radius is r. These volumes are equal if the whole moon is converted into a spherical shell. So for Uranus, we have 4⁄3 πr₀³ = 4⁄3 π(R³−r³), where r₀ is the radius of the moon, r is the radius of Uranus, and R−r is the thickness of the shell. Solving gives R−r = ³√(r₀³+r³)−r. Plugging in r₀ = 8 km and r = 25,559 km gives R−r = 0.26 mm. If we laid it on top of the other moons instead of the "surface" of Uranus itself, it would make practically no difference. Doing the same calculation for each newly-discovered moon of Neptune gives thicknesses of 17 mm and 3.9 mm (for a total of 21 mm).

:In other words, they are tiny rounding errors. [[User:EebstertheGreat|EebstertheGreat]] ([[User talk:EebstertheGreat|talk]]) 03:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I like that turning the Moon into a spherical shell coating the Earth is not definitely stated to be impossible with current technology. There's so much hedging going on I feel like I'm trapped in a maze in ''The Shining.'' [[User:EebstertheGreat|EebstertheGreat]] ([[User talk:EebstertheGreat|talk]]) 03:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The formula used seems to give the instantaneous technical distance, but in reality, there would be a rate of change of the surface area of the planet as each layer of thickness x was added. Does anyone know if this is significant with the distances we are talking, or does it just turn out to be a rounding error? [[Special:Contributions/172.68.0.254|172.68.0.254]] 03:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
:For most, I suspect it is indeed the roundingest of rounding errors. Obviously, Earth+Moon and Pluto+(Charon+the others) would be the most ''out'', but subtending difference of area at (say) sea-level radius and sea-level plus 43km doesn't sound like much to account for.
:A=4πr², so Adif of A2-A1 would be (4πr2²)-(4πr1²) or 4π(r2²-r1²) ((which looks like you could work it out as a pythogorean calculation, i.e. model a new line-length that would go at a tangent out from r1 until it hits the endpoint of the r2 radius elsewhere ... but that's probably not useful!)).
:Given Earth at a normal 6371km (between equatorial and polar radii, to simplify as a true sphere), Earth+Moon therefore 6371+43 (using figure stated by comic), that gives ...if I've done it right... now an extra 7 million km² on top of the roughly 510 million that it normally has. An increment of 5%, by the time you start spreading your arbitrarily thin final layer (so approximate back to being 2.5% extra by volume, without actually using Eebster's alternate direct shell-volume calculation or doing an integration).
:Pluto (saying 44km of layering, as slightly more than Earth's 'pile', on its far smaller radius) isn't that much more 'off'. It would increase the surface by about 8% (so says my mental arithmatic, at least) so maybe 4% more volume than a "flat surface raised up prismatically".
:(Not quite the same as "wrap a string around a tennis ball, add an inch to its length, what is its additional radius? / wrap a string around the Earth, add an inch ..." sort of thing, due to the extra dimensionality involved, but I don't feel like doing the full algebraic differentiations necessary to establish the trend of departure.).
:It certainly initially looks like the '≈'ing of the result holds fairly well under even the two most extreme examples (cases of particularly large moons-by-volume). And, at a certain point, a planet's (single largest) moon cannot be made bigger without drifting into double-planet territory (indeed, Pluto/Charon may be considered double-dwarfs!), and then, soon after, you're switching their roles around and dismantling the 'planet' (really a moon) to armour the 'moon' (now the planet). So that probably suggests we're at our limit, with twin-binary capping our one-satellite scenarios, until you get into 'busy' N-ary systems with many not-insignificant moons but somehow an identifiable 'main body' planet in the midst of them.
:I don't think "armour the Sun with all the planets (''and'' their moons), dwarf-planets, minor-planets, random detritus, etc" will strain that relationship. Top of my head estimate is that it'd be nowhere near as high as Earth/Pluto examples, if the Oort cloud isn't oddly massive in total. But someone can correct me if I've goofed or overly hand-waved something. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.195.118|172.69.195.118]] 06:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad there are at least links to them, but shouldn’t there be at least ONE sentence HERE on explainxkcd saying what the heck the last five ‘worlds’ are? I’d bet that’s what most people needing an explanation come here to find out! and all there are are links. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.186.98|162.158.186.98]] 09:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
:I added a sentence about the trans-Neptunian dwarf planets. But I don't know why Randall left out Makemake, Orcus and Sedna... any hypotheses? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 12:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

2908: Moon Armor Index

2024-03-19T12:18:36Z

Transgalactic: added link to list of 10 largest dwarf planets

{{comic
| number = 2908
| date = March 18, 2024
| title = Moon Armor Index
| image = moon_armor_index_2x.png
| imagesize = 740x390px
| noexpand = true
| titletext = Astronomers are a little unsure of the applicability of this index, but NASA's Planetary Protection Officer is all in favor.
}}

==Explanation==
{{incomplete|Created by a ROCK-LOVING MOON ARMOR SAMURAI BOT - Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}

In this comic, [[Randall]] hypothesizes a situation in which each planet's moons were converted into protective armor to coat their respective planets. For example, the {{w|Moon}} would coat {{w|Earth}} in a 43 kilometer layer if it were molded into protective armor for the planet. It is unknown how the moons would be converted into armor, but with current technology, this would be highly impractical, if not impossible.{{citation needed}} It is also unclear how planets such as Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune, which are gas giants and thus have no solid surface, would sustain such a layer of armor, nor is it immediately evident what threat might necessitate such drastic measures. A 43km moon rock layer might in fact endanger life on Earth by blocking out the sun and impacting ecosystems, rather than protecting it.

Mars' moons {{w|Phobos_(moon)|Phobos}} and {{w|Deimos_(moon)|Deimos}}, being very small compared to Mars, would make a very thin layer over Mars. Huge Jupiter would be covered with almost 3km of "moon", which indicates just how much moon mass there is around Jupiter. This is, to a smaller degree, similar for Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

Some trans-Neptunian {{w|Dwarf_planet|dwarf planets}} and dwarf planet candidates are included, as well: Only Pluto, having a moon ({{w|Charon_(moon)|Charon}}) of a comparable size to its planet, would have a layer thicker than Earth's. Salacia, Haumea, Quaoar, Gonggong and Eris are among the {{w|List_of_trans-Neptunian_objects#List|ten largest such objects}}.

The comic uses the ≈ sign to show that the formula is only an approximation: this is because it does not take account of the armor having a larger surface area as it gets thicker. This approximation would be perfect for a shield of thickness zero, but for the thickest shield (Pluto) the error is around 4% (52.5 km by approximation, but 50.4 km by calculation). If P, M and A are the Planet radius, Moon radius and Armour thickness respectively, we can use V(P+A) = V(P) + V(M) to get A^3 + (3P)A^2 + (3P^2)A - C^3 = 0 and then solve the cubic to make an accurate calculation. For multiple moons, this calculation can be used repeatedly to armor each moon with the previous moon, before using the final moon-conglomerate to armor the planet.
Compression effects due to increased gravity at the planet's surface in comparison to the moon's surface, which could compress the moon mass into smaller volumes, are not taken into account either.

The title text states that astronomers are "unsure" about the applicability of protective armor made from moons, possibly because they are wary of {{w|Giant-impact_hypothesis|moons and planets getting too close}}. It is dubious whether there would be an actual increase in planet safety due to the procedure. Moons as they are already serve a protective purpose by deflecting incoming asteroids, and by covering a small portion of sky.

The title text continues that NASA's [https://what-if.xkcd.com/117/ Planetary Protection Officer], whose job it is indeed to protect planets, is purportedly in favor of the idea. However, they are in fact responsible for keeping other celestial bodies safe from Earth's contamination, not for shielding planets in armor, as the title text suggests. There is no known method of shielding other planets from contamination by physically armoring them. {{citation needed}}

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Planet/ dwarf planet !! Area (km²) || Moons || Volume (km³) || Moon shield thickness 
|-
| {{w|Earth}} || 5.1007*10^8 || {{w|Moon|1}} || 2.196*10^10 || 43 km (27 mi)
|-
| {{w|Mars}} || 1.4437*10^8 || {{w|Moons of Mars|2}} || {{w|Phobos (moon)
|(5695±32)}}+{{w|Deimos (moon)|(1033±19)}} || 5 cm (2 in)
|-
| {{w|Jupiter}} || 6.1469*10^10 || {{w|Moons of Jupiter|95}} || 1.7646*10^11 || 2.87 km (1.78 mi)
|-
| {{w|Saturn}} || 4.27*10^10 || {{w|Moons of Saturn|146}} || 7.651*10^10 || 1.79 km (1.11 mi)
|-
| {{w|Uranus}} || 8.1156*10^9 || {{w|Moons of Uranus|28}} || ||
|-
| {{w|Neptune}} || 7.6187*10^9 || {{w|Moons of Neptune|16}} || ||
|-
| {{w|Pluto}} || 1.7744*10^7 || {{w|Moons of Pluto|5}} || {{w|Charon (moon)|(9.322×10^8)}}+{{w|Moons of Pluto|(approx 87100+38800+900+200)}} || 52.5 km (32.6 mi) (by XKCD)
50.4 km (31.3 mi) (by full calculation)
|-
| {{w|120347 Salacia|Salacia}} || 2.27*10^6 || {{w|Actaea (moon)|1}} || 1.41*10^7 || 6.21 km (3.85 mi)
|-
| {{w|Haumea}} || 8.14*10^6 || {{w|Moons of Haumea|2}} || {{w|Hiʻiaka (moon)
|(17.2*10^6)}}+{{w|Namaka (moon)|(2.57*10^6)}} || 2.43 km (1.51 mi)
|-
| {{w|50000 Quaoar|Quaoar}} || 3.78*10^6 || {{w|Weywot|1}} || 4.19*10^6 || 1.11 km (0.69 mi)
|-
| {{w|225088 Gonggong|Gonggong}} || || {{w|Xiangliu (moon)|1}} || ||
|-
| {{w|Eris (dwarf planet)|Eris}} || (1.70±0.02)*10^7 || {{w|Dysnomia (moon)|1}} || ||
|}

==Transcript==
{{incomplete transcript|Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
[Text above diagram:]
:Moon armor index:
:How thick the shells around various worlds would be if their moon(s) were converted into protective armor
:≈Total moon volume/Planet surface area

:[Vertical bars showing "moon armor" thicknesses for the Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Salacia, Haumea, Quaoar, Gonggong and Eris. Earth's bar has a label named "43 km thick" and is compared to the height of Mt Everest. The zoom in to the Mars' bar has a thickness label of 2" and is compared to a rover wheel over it. Pluto's bar has a label named "(Mostly Charon)".]

{{comic discussion}}

[[Category:Astronomy]]
[[Category:Bar charts]]