2904: Physics vs. Magic - Revision history

B for brain: /* Explanation */

2024-03-14T20:35:14Z

‎Explanation

162.158.146.47: Undo revision 337237 by Wvpro (talk) Scratch that, what happened on EITHER of there?

2024-03-13T06:43:46Z

Undo revision 337237 by Wvpro (talk) Scratch that, what happened on EITHER of there?

162.158.146.190: Undo revision 337238 by Wvpro (talk) Ummmmmmm, what the f*** happened there?

2024-03-13T06:42:23Z

Undo revision 337238 by Wvpro (talk) Ummmmmmm, what the f*** happened there?

Wvpro: /* Transcript */

2024-03-13T04:59:09Z

‎Transcript

Wvpro: /* Explanation */

2024-03-13T04:58:17Z

‎Explanation

BunsenH: Restored "incomplete" (way too early to remove, page is still undergoing major changes) and "Explanation" heading

2024-03-12T16:15:21Z

Restored "incomplete" (way too early to remove, page is still undergoing major changes) and "Explanation" heading

Laser813: Copyediting to make the explanation clearer, could benefit from a review to see if I messed up anything

2024-03-12T13:30:46Z

Copyediting to make the explanation clearer, could benefit from a review to see if I messed up anything

Danger Kitty: It's complete-also the edit page isn't showing the captcha

2024-03-12T13:21:14Z

It's complete-also the edit page isn't showing the captcha

172.70.91.145: /* Explanation */

2024-03-12T09:22:14Z

‎Explanation

108.162.250.184: /* Explanation */

2024-03-12T07:24:31Z

‎Explanation

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:35, 14 March 2024
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	==Explanation==		==Explanation==
−	~~{{incomplete\|Created by THE ILVERMORNY PROFESSOR OF THERMODYNAMICS- Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}~~
−
	This comic explores the distinctions between magic and physics through the perspective of [[Miss Lenhart]], a schoolteacher. She explains that {{w\|physics}} involves the continuous application of forces to objects over time, whereas magic reveals the outcome without detailing the process. She illustrates her point with a magical curse example that dictates the recipient will slay their brother by midnight (or possibly noon), highlighting its lack of scientific basis due to the absence of a causal explanation. She further contends that the {{w\|laws of thermodynamics}}, among other laws, fall into the category of magic, with {{w\|Lagrangian (physics)\|Lagrangians}} representing a deeper level of magic.		This comic explores the distinctions between magic and physics through the perspective of [[Miss Lenhart]], a schoolteacher. She explains that {{w\|physics}} involves the continuous application of forces to objects over time, whereas magic reveals the outcome without detailing the process. She illustrates her point with a magical curse example that dictates the recipient will slay their brother by midnight (or possibly noon), highlighting its lack of scientific basis due to the absence of a causal explanation. She further contends that the {{w\|laws of thermodynamics}}, among other laws, fall into the category of magic, with {{w\|Lagrangian (physics)\|Lagrangians}} representing a deeper level of magic.

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 | titletext = 'At the stroke of midnight, your brother will be hurtling sideways at an altitude of 150 meters' is a regular physics prediction about your nonmagical trebuchet, whereas 'you are cursed to build a brother-launching trebuchet' falls out of the Lagrangian.
 }}
 ==Transcript==

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:42, 13 March 2024
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	\| titletext = 'At the stroke of midnight, your brother will be hurtling sideways at an altitude of 150 meters' is a regular physics prediction about your nonmagical trebuchet, whereas 'you are cursed to build a brother-launching trebuchet' falls out of the Lagrangian.		\| titletext = 'At the stroke of midnight, your brother will be hurtling sideways at an altitude of 150 meters' is a regular physics prediction about your nonmagical trebuchet, whereas 'you are cursed to build a brother-launching trebuchet' falls out of the Lagrangian.
	}}		}}
		+
		+	==Transcript==
		+	:[Miss Lenhart is standing in front of a whiteboard and pointing to it with a stick. The whiteboard contains two lines of scribbles at the top, two drawings below them featuring a curve on the left and a circle on the right, and below them four additional lines of scribbles with smallest line of scribbles in the lower left corner.]
		+	:Miss Lenhart: '''''Physics''''' and '''''magic''''' are different in a very deep way.
		+
		+	:[Close-up of Miss Lenhart pointing the stick to the left to a depiction of a projectile's motion due to gravity. The path of movement is shown as a dashed line that first heads directly to the right but starts increasingly curving downward. There are five small circles at different points within the path. There are labels "V<sub>0</sub>" for an arrow pointing right on the left side of the leftmost circle, "F" for an arrow pointing downward below the leftmost circle, and "T<sub>0</sub>" to "T<sub>4</sub>" for the five individual circles from left to right.]
		+	:Miss Lenhart: '''''Physics''''' works by describing the forces that act on a system.
		+	:Miss Lenhart: To predict outcomes, we progressively apply those forces over time.
		+
		+	:[Miss Lenhart is holding the stick down and standing in front of Jill and Hairy sitting at their desks. Jill has her hands on her desk while Hairy has his hands on his lap.]
		+	:Miss Lenhart: '''''Magic''''' specifies the outcome, but not the intermediate events.
		+	:Miss Lenhart: '' "Ere the clock strikes twelve, you are cursed to slay your brother" '' is magic, not science.
		+
		+	:[Same setting as in the third panel, except Miss Lenhart is holding the stick slightly lower and Jill has her other hand on her lap.]
		+	:Miss Lenhart: ... And that's how we know thermodynamics is magic.
		+	:Miss Lenhart: Conservation laws are, too.
		+	:Hairy: What about Lagrangians?
		+	:Miss Lenhart: '''''Deep''''' magic. Speak not of them here.
		+
		+	{{comic discussion}}
		+
		+	[[Category:Comics featuring Miss Lenhart]]
		+	[[Category:Comics featuring Jill]]
		+	[[Category:Comics featuring Hairy]]
		+	[[Category:Physics]]
		+	[[Category:Trebuchet]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:59, 13 March 2024
Line 8:		Line 8:
	\| titletext = 'At the stroke of midnight, your brother will be hurtling sideways at an altitude of 150 meters' is a regular physics prediction about your nonmagical trebuchet, whereas 'you are cursed to build a brother-launching trebuchet' falls out of the Lagrangian.		\| titletext = 'At the stroke of midnight, your brother will be hurtling sideways at an altitude of 150 meters' is a regular physics prediction about your nonmagical trebuchet, whereas 'you are cursed to build a brother-launching trebuchet' falls out of the Lagrangian.
	}}		}}
−
−	~~==Transcript==~~
−	:[Miss Lenhart is standing in front of a whiteboard and pointing to it with a stick. The whiteboard contains two lines of scribbles at the top, two drawings below them featuring a curve on the left and a circle on the right, and below them four additional lines of scribbles with smallest line of scribbles in the lower left corner.]
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: '''''Physics''''' and '''''magic''''' are different in a very deep way.~~
−
−	:[Close-up of Miss Lenhart pointing the stick to the left to a depiction of a projectile's motion due to gravity. The path of movement is shown as a dashed line that first heads directly to the right but starts increasingly curving downward. There are five small circles at different points within the path. There are labels "V<sub>0</sub>" for an arrow pointing right on the left side of the leftmost circle, "F" for an arrow pointing downward below the leftmost circle, and "T<sub>0</sub>" to "T<sub>4</sub>" for the five individual circles from left to right.]
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: '''''Physics''''' works by describing the forces that act on a system.~~
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: To predict outcomes, we progressively apply those forces over time.~~
−
−	~~:[Miss Lenhart is holding the stick down and standing in front of Jill and Hairy sitting at their desks. Jill has her hands on her desk while Hairy has his hands on his lap.]~~
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: '''''Magic''''' specifies the outcome, but not the intermediate events.~~
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: '' "Ere the clock strikes twelve, you are cursed to slay your brother" '' is magic, not science.~~
−
−	~~:[Same setting as in the third panel, except Miss Lenhart is holding the stick slightly lower and Jill has her other hand on her lap.]~~
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: ... And that's how we know thermodynamics is magic.~~
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: Conservation laws are, too.~~
−	~~:Hairy: What about Lagrangians?~~
−	~~:Miss Lenhart: '''''Deep''''' magic. Speak not of them here.~~
−
−	~~{{comic discussion}}~~
−
−	~~[[Category:Comics featuring Miss Lenhart]]~~
−	~~[[Category:Comics featuring Jill]]~~
−	~~[[Category:Comics featuring Hairy]]~~
−	~~[[Category:Physics]]~~
−	~~[[Category:Trebuchet]]~~

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 | titletext = 'At the stroke of midnight, your brother will be hurtling sideways at an altitude of 150 meters' is a regular physics prediction about your nonmagical trebuchet, whereas 'you are cursed to build a brother-launching trebuchet' falls out of the Lagrangian.
 }}
 ==Transcript==

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 }}
-This is a comic about the differences between magic and physics. [[Miss Lenhart]], a school teacher, says that {{w|physics}} is applying forces to objects continuously over time, while magic tells you the outcome, but not how it'll get there. She gives an example of a magical curse that causes the recipient to slay their brother by midnight (or possibly noon); it's not science because it doesn't say what will cause them to take this action. She then states that the {{w|laws of thermodynamics}} and other laws are also magic, with {{w|Lagrangian (physics)|Lagrangians}} being deep magic.
+This comic explores the distinctions between magic and physics through the perspective of [[Miss Lenhart]], a schoolteacher. She explains that {{w|physics}} involves the continuous application of forces to objects over time, whereas magic reveals the outcome without detailing the process. She illustrates her point with a magical curse example that dictates the recipient will slay their brother by midnight (or possibly noon), highlighting its lack of scientific basis due to the absence of a causal explanation. She further contends that the {{w|laws of thermodynamics}}, among other laws, fall into the category of magic, with {{w|Lagrangian (physics)|Lagrangians}} representing a deeper level of magic.
-The joke is that these basic physical laws have been discovered empirically, but we don't know ''why'' they're true. So by the logic in the second panel, they're essentially like magic, since they specify a result without explaining how we get there. It may be possible to derive some of them from the others, but eventually we hit bottom and we have to say "because it just is", and that's like magic.
+The humor in this comic arises from the observation that foundational physical laws, despite being empirically derived, lack explanations for their inherent truths. According to the logic presented in the second panel, these laws resemble magic as they specify outcomes without clarifying the means to achieve them. While some laws might be derived from others, ultimately, we accept certain principles as given, akin to magical reasoning.
-The second panel alludes to Newtonian mechanics, which is formalized mathematically as an initial value problem; that is to say, the initial conditions of a system are known, and the rules relating the current condition of a system to the evolution of that system over time are specified. As humans, we are used to thinking of the present being a known state and the immediate future depending only on the present, so the Newtonian formalism makes intuitive sense as a picture of the world. The last panel contrasts this humorously with a series of physics ideas which violate this basic assumption in increasingly unsettling ways.
+The second panel references Newtonian mechanics, depicted as an initial value problem, which establishes a system's initial conditions and its temporal evolution based on specific rules. This formulation aligns with our intuitive understanding that the present is a known state and the immediate future is determined by present conditions. The final panel humorously juxtaposes this notion with various physics concepts that challenge our basic assumptions in progressively disconcerting ways.
-Thermodynamics, in particular equilibrium thermodynamics, the most studied branch and that most familiar to physics students, frames its questions in terms of the most likely state for a system to evolve to eventually. In this sense, the predictions of thermodynamics do not depend on the present state of the system, and do not help predict its intermediate behaviour. They only predict what the state of the system will be after a long enough time has elapsed for the system to have stopped evolving; in other words, to have reached equilibrium. Looked at in this way, thermodynamics seems to violate the principle outlined in the first panel; however, most people will be intuitively comfortable with the idea that one can ask sensible questions about long term stability without considering the details of how the system gets there.
+Specifically, equilibrium thermodynamics, a major branch of thermodynamics familiar to students, makes predictions about a system's eventual state without accounting for its current state or intermediate behaviors. This perspective seemingly contradicts the principle introduced in the first panel, although the concept of inquiring about long-term stability without detailed process knowledge remains intuitively accessible.
-{{w|Conservation law}}s arise naturally from Newtonian physics, but it is not necessarily clear intuitively how. Low level explanations tend to take the form of an understandable but fairly un-illuminating derivation from calculus and elementary algebra, while at a more advanced level they are shown to relate to symmetries of a physical system in a way which is very general and powerful, but nonetheless extremely abstract and mysterious. Either way, the end result — a conservation law — is a statement about how a system will be for ever, regardless of its evolution. This also violates the principle stated in the first panel, and it violates it in a way which seems intuitively stranger than thermodynamics. Conservation laws also appear in particle physics, where such elementary properties as the charge, spin, and parity of a system don't change... with some exceptions, involving the {{w|Wu experiment|weak nuclear force}}.
+{{w|Conservation law}}s, emerging naturally from Newtonian physics, present another conceptual challenge. While basic explanations involve calculus and elementary algebra, more advanced interpretations connect conservation laws to physical system symmetries in a highly abstract and enigmatic manner. These laws, therefore, make permanent statements about a system's state, independent of its evolution, challenging the initial principle in a manner that feels even more counterintuitive than thermodynamics. Notably, particle physics conservation laws, except in cases involving the {{w|Wu experiment|weak nuclear force}}, maintain certain system properties like charge, spin, and parity.
-Lagrangian mechanics is a reformulation of classical physics. It is exactly equivalent to Newton's laws. However, while Newtonian Mechanics is formulated in terms of specific forces acting on an initial state, and allows one to predict the final state by evolving the system forwards in time, Lagrangian mechanics instead takes the initial and final states of a system as inputs, and gives a rule which states which trajectories between those states are physically allowed. This is apparently a direct contravention of the principle in the first panel. In fact, it much more closely resembles the definition of magic given; one of the most surprising and counter-intuitive facts in physics is that the intuitive Newtonian worldview is exactly mathematically equivalent to the magical-seeming Lagrangian and closely related Hamiltonian pictures.{{acn}} For this reason the comic refers to Lagrangians (the central tool of Lagrangian mechanics which serves as a description of the system dynamics) as 'Deep Magic', as it is really the ultimate expression of the 'magical' side of physics.
+Lagrangian mechanics, a reinterpretation of classical physics equivalent to Newton's laws, diverges by considering both initial and final states to determine physically permissible trajectories. This approach directly opposes the first panel's principle, mirroring the magical definition by surprisingly and counterintuitively aligning the intuitive Newtonian perspective with the "magical" frameworks of Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics. Therefore, the comic labels Lagrangians, central to Lagrangian mechanics and system dynamics description, as 'Deep Magic', highlighting their role in encapsulating physics' magical aspect.
-{{w|Teleology}} is a branch of causality often associated with religion or magical thinking, that argues from the end result, instead of the cause of things.
+Furthermore, the comic might hint at the teleological debate within physics, especially regarding the {{w|stationary-action principle}}'s potential teleological interpretations. This principle, foundational to deriving various equations of motion across physics fields, suggests a teleological element by inferring initial conditions from specified final conditions, challenging the conventional causality narrative.
-The title text seems to be mixing the diagram shown on the whiteboard with the curse of the comic. The first prediction is (according to Miss Lenhart) a physics prediction about a nonmagical {{w|trebuchet}}, whereas the second prediction would be something from deep magic.
+The title text merges the comic's thematic elements, contrasting a nonmagical {{w|trebuchet}} prediction with the mystical implications of the curse, further blending the lines between physics predictions and magical foresight.
 ==Transcript==

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 {{incomplete|Created by THE ILVERMORNY PROFESSOR OF THERMODYNAMICS- Please change this comment when editing this page. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.}}
-This is a comic about the differences between magic and physics. [[Miss Lenhart]], a school teacher, says that {{w|physics}} is applying forces to objects continuously over time, while magic tells you the outcome, but not how it'll get there. She gives an example of a magical curse that causes the recipient to slay their brother by midnight (or possibly noon) it's not science because it doesn't say what will cause them to take this action. She then states that the {{w|laws of thermodynamics}} and other laws are also magic, with {{w|Lagrangian (physics)|Lagrangians}} being deep magic.
+This is a comic about the differences between magic and physics. [[Miss Lenhart]], a school teacher, says that {{w|physics}} is applying forces to objects continuously over time, while magic tells you the outcome, but not how it'll get there. She gives an example of a magical curse that causes the recipient to slay their brother by midnight (or possibly noon); it's not science because it doesn't say what will cause them to take this action. She then states that the {{w|laws of thermodynamics}} and other laws are also magic, with {{w|Lagrangian (physics)|Lagrangians}} being deep magic.
 The joke is that these basic physical laws have been discovered empirically, but we don't know ''why'' they're true. So by the logic in the second panel, they're essentially like magic, since they specify a result without explaining how we get there. It may be possible to derive some of them from the others, but eventually we hit bottom and we have to say "because it just is", and that's like magic.