Talk:1392: Dominant Players - Revision history

172.69.23.140 at 21:24, 14 January 2025

2025-01-14T21:24:50Z

162.158.78.124 at 18:04, 18 February 2020

2020-02-18T18:04:12Z

173.245.54.55 at 17:57, 18 February 2020

2020-02-18T17:57:43Z

173.245.54.55 at 17:57, 18 February 2020

2020-02-18T17:57:18Z

Kynde: layout

2015-01-18T16:40:06Z

layout

Tharkon at 21:43, 12 December 2014

2014-12-12T21:43:09Z

Davidy22 at 17:20, 6 August 2014

2014-08-06T17:20:58Z

108.162.216.210 at 17:03, 6 August 2014

2014-08-06T17:03:47Z

108.162.246.209 at 12:54, 18 July 2014

2014-07-18T12:54:15Z

108.162.212.215 at 16:45, 15 July 2014

2014-07-15T16:45:44Z

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 ::In short, your comment is just wrong.  The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex.  There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players.  That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. {{unsigned ip|108.162.216.210}}
 Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 : ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart -- they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.54.55|173.245.54.55]] 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 :: For completeness, a Google search reveals no such entity as the "Nepal Basketball Association" in existence (there is a Nepal Basketball League, but it was founded in 2018); the professional basketball league in Australia did not become known as the Australia Basketball Association until 1999; the entity currently known as the ABA League was founded in 2001. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.78.124|162.158.78.124]] 18:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:04, 18 February 2020
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	Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)		Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
	: ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart -- they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.54.55\|173.245.54.55]] 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)		: ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart -- they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.54.55\|173.245.54.55]] 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
		+	:: For completeness, a Google search reveals no such entity as the "Nepal Basketball Association" in existence (there is a Nepal Basketball League, but it was founded in 2018); the professional basketball league in Australia did not become known as the Australia Basketball Association until 1999; the entity currently known as the ABA League was founded in 2001. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.78.124\|162.158.78.124]] 18:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:57, 18 February 2020
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	Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)		Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
−	: ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.54.55\|173.245.54.55]] 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)	+	: ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart -- they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.54.55\|173.245.54.55]] 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:57, 18 February 2020
Line 65:		Line 65:

	Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)		Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
		+	: ABA is near certainly the American Basketball Association, since the two leagues merged in 1976 and four current NBA teams came from the ABA. I find it difficult to imagine that we have the stats necessary to determine a number 1 player statistically from other leagues. Additionally, Julius Irving and Moses Malone are listed on the chart they were both playing for ABA teams prior to the merger. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.54.55\|173.245.54.55]] 17:57, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 60: / Line 60: @@
 : Chess is divided by sex at the professional level. Because of the way that Elo is calculated, this division makes it impossible to fairly display them on the same chart. Elo is based on a comparison of players to one another, and because it's not zero-sum, the level of skill described a certain Elo lowers over time. When it was new, a thousand would have been incredible, because everyone had started out low and were competing against other low-ranked players. And since the pools of opponents are different due to the professional-level sex divide, their skills cannot be compared by Elo. Plotting women onto the mens' chart would result in the women being ranked poorly, because the meaning of a certain Elo score is different. This is also why chess is gradually climbing while basketball stays at the same maximum. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.209|108.162.246.209]] 12:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
-That's incorrect, Chess is not officially divided by sex at the professional level.  There are "Open" tournaments, in which either gender is welcome to compete, and "Women's" events, in which only women are allowed to compete.  Second, elo is not gender specific.  It is merely a comparison of playing strength/a prediction of the likelihood player A defeats player B, and there is no "men's" elo and "women's" elo.  Nor are the "pools of opponents different."  At any broadly open tournament in the world, like the U.S. Open, men and women play each other.  You might be mistaken by looking only at ultra high-tier tournaments, which are almost exclusively men, as many of them are by invite or placement only.  But again, that is because men dominate the upper level of competition, not because women are not allowed in; it's just a plain statement of fact that a top women's player like Hou Yifan would be steamrolled at a tournament like Wijk An See.  When Judit was an active player, she regularly competed in these tournaments because her skill level was on or near par with these players.
+::That's incorrect, Chess is not officially divided by sex at the professional level.  There are "Open" tournaments, in which either gender is welcome to compete, and "Women's" events, in which only women are allowed to compete.  Second, elo is not gender specific.  It is merely a comparison of playing strength/a prediction of the likelihood player A defeats player B, and there is no "men's" elo and "women's" elo.  Nor are the "pools of opponents different."  At any broadly open tournament in the world, like the U.S. Open, men and women play each other.  You might be mistaken by looking only at ultra high-tier tournaments, which are almost exclusively men, as many of them are by invite or placement only.  But again, that is because men dominate the upper level of competition, not because women are not allowed in; it's just a plain statement of fact that a top women's player like Hou Yifan would be steamrolled at a tournament like Wijk An See.  When Judit was an active player, she regularly competed in these tournaments because her skill level was on or near par with these players.
-In short, your comment is just wrong.  The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex.  There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players.  That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. {{unsigned ip|108.162.216.210}}
+::In short, your comment is just wrong.  The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex.  There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players.  That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. {{unsigned ip|108.162.216.210}}
 Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:43, 12 December 2014
Line 63:		Line 63:

	In short, your comment is just wrong. The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex. There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players. That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. {{unsigned ip\|108.162.216.210}}		In short, your comment is just wrong. The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex. There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players. That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. {{unsigned ip\|108.162.216.210}}
		+
		+	Any way to find out which NBA and ABA Randall is referring to? NBA could be National Basketball Association or Nepal Basketball Association. ABA could be Australian Basketball Association, American Basketball Association or Adriatic Basketball Association. [[User:Tharkon\|Tharkon]] ([[User talk:Tharkon\|talk]]) 21:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:20, 6 August 2014
Line 62:		Line 62:
	That's incorrect, Chess is not officially divided by sex at the professional level. There are "Open" tournaments, in which either gender is welcome to compete, and "Women's" events, in which only women are allowed to compete. Second, elo is not gender specific. It is merely a comparison of playing strength/a prediction of the likelihood player A defeats player B, and there is no "men's" elo and "women's" elo. Nor are the "pools of opponents different." At any broadly open tournament in the world, like the U.S. Open, men and women play each other. You might be mistaken by looking only at ultra high-tier tournaments, which are almost exclusively men, as many of them are by invite or placement only. But again, that is because men dominate the upper level of competition, not because women are not allowed in; it's just a plain statement of fact that a top women's player like Hou Yifan would be steamrolled at a tournament like Wijk An See. When Judit was an active player, she regularly competed in these tournaments because her skill level was on or near par with these players.		That's incorrect, Chess is not officially divided by sex at the professional level. There are "Open" tournaments, in which either gender is welcome to compete, and "Women's" events, in which only women are allowed to compete. Second, elo is not gender specific. It is merely a comparison of playing strength/a prediction of the likelihood player A defeats player B, and there is no "men's" elo and "women's" elo. Nor are the "pools of opponents different." At any broadly open tournament in the world, like the U.S. Open, men and women play each other. You might be mistaken by looking only at ultra high-tier tournaments, which are almost exclusively men, as many of them are by invite or placement only. But again, that is because men dominate the upper level of competition, not because women are not allowed in; it's just a plain statement of fact that a top women's player like Hou Yifan would be steamrolled at a tournament like Wijk An See. When Judit was an active player, she regularly competed in these tournaments because her skill level was on or near par with these players.

−	In short, your comment is just wrong. The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex. There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players. That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all.	+	In short, your comment is just wrong. The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex. There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players. That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all. {{unsigned ip\|108.162.216.210}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:03, 6 August 2014
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	This comic had the potential to be really cool, but Randall just ''had'' to go all social justice soldier and shit it up with benevolent-sexist feminism. "Here's the 'regular' graph: '''Chess'''. And here's the ''other'' graph: '''Chess (''Women!'')''' (''They're different'') (''They're special'') (''I'm not reinforcing social inequality by doing this, I'm changing it for the better!'')." Yeah, eat shit, Randall. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.212.215\|108.162.212.215]] 16:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)		This comic had the potential to be really cool, but Randall just ''had'' to go all social justice soldier and shit it up with benevolent-sexist feminism. "Here's the 'regular' graph: '''Chess'''. And here's the ''other'' graph: '''Chess (''Women!'')''' (''They're different'') (''They're special'') (''I'm not reinforcing social inequality by doing this, I'm changing it for the better!'')." Yeah, eat shit, Randall. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.212.215\|108.162.212.215]] 16:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
	: Chess is divided by sex at the professional level. Because of the way that Elo is calculated, this division makes it impossible to fairly display them on the same chart. Elo is based on a comparison of players to one another, and because it's not zero-sum, the level of skill described a certain Elo lowers over time. When it was new, a thousand would have been incredible, because everyone had started out low and were competing against other low-ranked players. And since the pools of opponents are different due to the professional-level sex divide, their skills cannot be compared by Elo. Plotting women onto the mens' chart would result in the women being ranked poorly, because the meaning of a certain Elo score is different. This is also why chess is gradually climbing while basketball stays at the same maximum. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.209\|108.162.246.209]] 12:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)		: Chess is divided by sex at the professional level. Because of the way that Elo is calculated, this division makes it impossible to fairly display them on the same chart. Elo is based on a comparison of players to one another, and because it's not zero-sum, the level of skill described a certain Elo lowers over time. When it was new, a thousand would have been incredible, because everyone had started out low and were competing against other low-ranked players. And since the pools of opponents are different due to the professional-level sex divide, their skills cannot be compared by Elo. Plotting women onto the mens' chart would result in the women being ranked poorly, because the meaning of a certain Elo score is different. This is also why chess is gradually climbing while basketball stays at the same maximum. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.209\|108.162.246.209]] 12:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	That's incorrect, Chess is not officially divided by sex at the professional level. There are "Open" tournaments, in which either gender is welcome to compete, and "Women's" events, in which only women are allowed to compete. Second, elo is not gender specific. It is merely a comparison of playing strength/a prediction of the likelihood player A defeats player B, and there is no "men's" elo and "women's" elo. Nor are the "pools of opponents different." At any broadly open tournament in the world, like the U.S. Open, men and women play each other. You might be mistaken by looking only at ultra high-tier tournaments, which are almost exclusively men, as many of them are by invite or placement only. But again, that is because men dominate the upper level of competition, not because women are not allowed in; it's just a plain statement of fact that a top women's player like Hou Yifan would be steamrolled at a tournament like Wijk An See. When Judit was an active player, she regularly competed in these tournaments because her skill level was on or near par with these players.
		+
		+	In short, your comment is just wrong. The meaning of an Elo score is not different for each sex. There is no official segregation at the professional level; there is just a nuanced appreciation that the major female players are not yet at the level of the major male players. That is why very small (in terms of number of players) round robin tournaments like Wijk An See have a women's section and an open section-without a women's section, there would be no women in the tournament at all.

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:54, 18 July 2014
Line 58:		Line 58:

	This comic had the potential to be really cool, but Randall just ''had'' to go all social justice soldier and shit it up with benevolent-sexist feminism. "Here's the 'regular' graph: '''Chess'''. And here's the ''other'' graph: '''Chess (''Women!'')''' (''They're different'') (''They're special'') (''I'm not reinforcing social inequality by doing this, I'm changing it for the better!'')." Yeah, eat shit, Randall. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.212.215\|108.162.212.215]] 16:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)		This comic had the potential to be really cool, but Randall just ''had'' to go all social justice soldier and shit it up with benevolent-sexist feminism. "Here's the 'regular' graph: '''Chess'''. And here's the ''other'' graph: '''Chess (''Women!'')''' (''They're different'') (''They're special'') (''I'm not reinforcing social inequality by doing this, I'm changing it for the better!'')." Yeah, eat shit, Randall. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.212.215\|108.162.212.215]] 16:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
		+	: Chess is divided by sex at the professional level. Because of the way that Elo is calculated, this division makes it impossible to fairly display them on the same chart. Elo is based on a comparison of players to one another, and because it's not zero-sum, the level of skill described a certain Elo lowers over time. When it was new, a thousand would have been incredible, because everyone had started out low and were competing against other low-ranked players. And since the pools of opponents are different due to the professional-level sex divide, their skills cannot be compared by Elo. Plotting women onto the mens' chart would result in the women being ranked poorly, because the meaning of a certain Elo score is different. This is also why chess is gradually climbing while basketball stays at the same maximum. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.246.209\|108.162.246.209]] 12:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:45, 15 July 2014
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	I have more or less included all the info and thoughts above, and added data tables, and links to a graph of another sources paths. I have thus completed the comic. But feel free to improve or add more (or if still not complete enough please note why and mark it as incomplete again.) ;-) [[User:Kynde\|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde\|talk]]) 18:31, 13 July 2014 (UTC)		I have more or less included all the info and thoughts above, and added data tables, and links to a graph of another sources paths. I have thus completed the comic. But feel free to improve or add more (or if still not complete enough please note why and mark it as incomplete again.) ;-) [[User:Kynde\|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde\|talk]]) 18:31, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	This comic had the potential to be really cool, but Randall just ''had'' to go all social justice soldier and shit it up with benevolent-sexist feminism. "Here's the 'regular' graph: '''Chess'''. And here's the ''other'' graph: '''Chess (''Women!'')''' (''They're different'') (''They're special'') (''I'm not reinforcing social inequality by doing this, I'm changing it for the better!'')." Yeah, eat shit, Randall. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.212.215\|108.162.212.215]] 16:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)