Talk:1526: Placebo Blocker - Revision history

188.114.97.151: opinion

2015-12-23T22:53:54Z

opinion

Davidy22 at 07:02, 21 October 2015

2015-10-21T07:02:42Z

198.41.235.59 at 06:39, 21 October 2015

2015-10-21T06:39:54Z

Cosmogoblin at 23:32, 14 July 2015

2015-07-14T23:32:07Z

Dgbrt at 20:53, 8 June 2015

2015-06-08T20:53:14Z

Davidy22 at 19:29, 25 May 2015

2015-05-25T19:29:14Z

TheHYPO: /* How to run the experiment */ new section

2015-05-25T16:07:50Z

‎How to run the experiment: new section

CLSI: A real-live placebo blocker experiment

2015-05-19T17:07:00Z

A real-live placebo blocker experiment

Kynde at 16:05, 19 May 2015

2015-05-19T16:05:43Z

Davidy22 at 08:45, 19 May 2015

2015-05-19T08:45:06Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:53, 23 December 2015
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	If I'm thinking about it correctly, then a "placebo-blocker-placebo blocker" would be the same thing as a simple placebo-blocker. The only difference is that while giving them the sugar pill, instead of telling them "this pill will get rid of your headache," you'd be saying "this pill will get rid of your placebo effect." So if the blocker worked, then the patient would NOT be fooled ie they would NOT be convinced that the fake blocker works, which is kind of pointless because you DID end up giving them the blocker afterwards! Ok I agree my head hurts {{unsigned ip\|198.41.235.59}}		If I'm thinking about it correctly, then a "placebo-blocker-placebo blocker" would be the same thing as a simple placebo-blocker. The only difference is that while giving them the sugar pill, instead of telling them "this pill will get rid of your headache," you'd be saying "this pill will get rid of your placebo effect." So if the blocker worked, then the patient would NOT be fooled ie they would NOT be convinced that the fake blocker works, which is kind of pointless because you DID end up giving them the blocker afterwards! Ok I agree my head hurts {{unsigned ip\|198.41.235.59}}
		+
		+	As of the writing of this comment, there's an incomplete tag. While I agree that it's a bit bigger than necessary, it was good enough for me. However, there are two things that I disagree with (plus the typo that I fixed):
		+	* I don't think the headache is because they're frustrated about not being able to conduct the experiment. I think it's because they're confused about the placebo [http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/inception inception].
		+	* I don't think the sugar pill is meant to cure the headache by placebo. I think it's a comforting action to offer someone a good tasting food when someone's distressed, plus the humor that the pills Cueball's holding are probably his placebo blocker pills and that they're actually sugar pills.
		+	[[Special:Contributions/188.114.97.151\|188.114.97.151]] 22:53, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:02, 21 October 2015
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	I've just gone through the article, fixing grammar. I'm happy that spelling and grammar is good now. However I've also updated the explanation quite a bit; hopefully people agree it's an improvement, but I know a lot of people have taken an interest in this article. Edit or roll back if you like! [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 23:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC) P.S. In explaining the placebo, the placebo blocker, the placebo blocker placebo ... '''my''' head started to hurt too! (Could we have a "''placebo-blocker-placebo blocker''"? Or would that be taking things too far?)		I've just gone through the article, fixing grammar. I'm happy that spelling and grammar is good now. However I've also updated the explanation quite a bit; hopefully people agree it's an improvement, but I know a lot of people have taken an interest in this article. Edit or roll back if you like! [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 23:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC) P.S. In explaining the placebo, the placebo blocker, the placebo blocker placebo ... '''my''' head started to hurt too! (Could we have a "''placebo-blocker-placebo blocker''"? Or would that be taking things too far?)

−	If I'm thinking about it correctly, then a "placebo-blocker-placebo blocker" would be the same thing as a simple placebo-blocker. The only difference is that while giving them the sugar pill, instead of telling them "this pill will get rid of your headache," you'd be saying "this pill will get rid of your placebo effect." So if the blocker worked, then the patient would NOT be fooled ie they would NOT be convinced that the fake blocker works, which is kind of pointless because you DID end up giving them the blocker afterwards! Ok I agree my head hurts	+	If I'm thinking about it correctly, then a "placebo-blocker-placebo blocker" would be the same thing as a simple placebo-blocker. The only difference is that while giving them the sugar pill, instead of telling them "this pill will get rid of your headache," you'd be saying "this pill will get rid of your placebo effect." So if the blocker worked, then the patient would NOT be fooled ie they would NOT be convinced that the fake blocker works, which is kind of pointless because you DID end up giving them the blocker afterwards! Ok I agree my head hurts {{unsigned ip\|198.41.235.59}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:39, 21 October 2015
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	I've just gone through the article, fixing grammar. I'm happy that spelling and grammar is good now. However I've also updated the explanation quite a bit; hopefully people agree it's an improvement, but I know a lot of people have taken an interest in this article. Edit or roll back if you like! [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 23:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC) P.S. In explaining the placebo, the placebo blocker, the placebo blocker placebo ... '''my''' head started to hurt too! (Could we have a "''placebo-blocker-placebo blocker''"? Or would that be taking things too far?)		I've just gone through the article, fixing grammar. I'm happy that spelling and grammar is good now. However I've also updated the explanation quite a bit; hopefully people agree it's an improvement, but I know a lot of people have taken an interest in this article. Edit or roll back if you like! [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 23:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC) P.S. In explaining the placebo, the placebo blocker, the placebo blocker placebo ... '''my''' head started to hurt too! (Could we have a "''placebo-blocker-placebo blocker''"? Or would that be taking things too far?)
		+
		+	If I'm thinking about it correctly, then a "placebo-blocker-placebo blocker" would be the same thing as a simple placebo-blocker. The only difference is that while giving them the sugar pill, instead of telling them "this pill will get rid of your headache," you'd be saying "this pill will get rid of your placebo effect." So if the blocker worked, then the patient would NOT be fooled ie they would NOT be convinced that the fake blocker works, which is kind of pointless because you DID end up giving them the blocker afterwards! Ok I agree my head hurts

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:32, 14 July 2015
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	;Headache		;Headache
	The sentence "My head hurts" doesn't mean a headache, but Cueball takes this too literally. It's more like a reaction on some stupid experiments witch hurt my head. --[[User:Dgbrt\|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt\|talk]]) 20:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)		The sentence "My head hurts" doesn't mean a headache, but Cueball takes this too literally. It's more like a reaction on some stupid experiments witch hurt my head. --[[User:Dgbrt\|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt\|talk]]) 20:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
		+
		+	I've just gone through the article, fixing grammar. I'm happy that spelling and grammar is good now. However I've also updated the explanation quite a bit; hopefully people agree it's an improvement, but I know a lot of people have taken an interest in this article. Edit or roll back if you like! [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 23:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC) P.S. In explaining the placebo, the placebo blocker, the placebo blocker placebo ... '''my''' head started to hurt too! (Could we have a "''placebo-blocker-placebo blocker''"? Or would that be taking things too far?)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:53, 8 June 2015
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	The bottom line is that it's not that easy to design an experiment to test two variables at once. [[User:TheHYPO\|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO\|talk]]) 16:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)		The bottom line is that it's not that easy to design an experiment to test two variables at once. [[User:TheHYPO\|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO\|talk]]) 16:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
		+
		+	;Headache
		+	The sentence "My head hurts" doesn't mean a headache, but Cueball takes this too literally. It's more like a reaction on some stupid experiments witch hurt my head. --[[User:Dgbrt\|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt\|talk]]) 20:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 Summary: The researchers recruited volunteers who were undergoing tooth extraction. After surgery, one group received morphine-based drugs (most, but not all, reported pain relief). Others received placebo (about a third reported pain relief). Others yet were given placebo AND naloxone, a drug that blocks the action of opioids (none reported pain relief). The researchers concluded that administration of placebo caused the release of endogenous opioids in some patients, and naloxone worked as a placebo blocker. More recent research with functional brain imaging has confirmed that opioids and placebos activate the same brain regions (Petrovic, P., Kalso, E., Petersson, K.M., and Ingvar, M. (2002). Placebo and opioid analgesia imaging--A shared neuronal network. Science 295: 1737-1740).[[User:CLSI|CLSI]] ([[User talk:CLSI|talk]]) 17:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
-== How to run the experiment ==
+;How to run the experiment
 I am going to comment out (but not delete yet) the explanation for how it is "actually quite simple" to test the placebo blocker. I feel that the experiment is flawed in that testing the two drugs simultaneously would potentially impact the results in respect to either one.

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:07, 25 May 2015
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	Here's an experiment done all the way back in 1978: Levine, J.D., Gordon, N.C., and Fields, H.L. (1978). The mechanism of placebo analgesia. Lancet 2: 654-657.		Here's an experiment done all the way back in 1978: Levine, J.D., Gordon, N.C., and Fields, H.L. (1978). The mechanism of placebo analgesia. Lancet 2: 654-657.
	Summary: The researchers recruited volunteers who were undergoing tooth extraction. After surgery, one group received morphine-based drugs (most, but not all, reported pain relief). Others received placebo (about a third reported pain relief). Others yet were given placebo AND naloxone, a drug that blocks the action of opioids (none reported pain relief). The researchers concluded that administration of placebo caused the release of endogenous opioids in some patients, and naloxone worked as a placebo blocker. More recent research with functional brain imaging has confirmed that opioids and placebos activate the same brain regions (Petrovic, P., Kalso, E., Petersson, K.M., and Ingvar, M. (2002). Placebo and opioid analgesia imaging--A shared neuronal network. Science 295: 1737-1740).[[User:CLSI\|CLSI]] ([[User talk:CLSI\|talk]]) 17:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)		Summary: The researchers recruited volunteers who were undergoing tooth extraction. After surgery, one group received morphine-based drugs (most, but not all, reported pain relief). Others received placebo (about a third reported pain relief). Others yet were given placebo AND naloxone, a drug that blocks the action of opioids (none reported pain relief). The researchers concluded that administration of placebo caused the release of endogenous opioids in some patients, and naloxone worked as a placebo blocker. More recent research with functional brain imaging has confirmed that opioids and placebos activate the same brain regions (Petrovic, P., Kalso, E., Petersson, K.M., and Ingvar, M. (2002). Placebo and opioid analgesia imaging--A shared neuronal network. Science 295: 1737-1740).[[User:CLSI\|CLSI]] ([[User talk:CLSI\|talk]]) 17:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
		+
		+	== How to run the experiment ==
		+
		+	I am going to comment out (but not delete yet) the explanation for how it is "actually quite simple" to test the placebo blocker. I feel that the experiment is flawed in that testing the two drugs simultaneously would potentially impact the results in respect to either one.
		+
		+	The experiment suggests: Group 1 would receive the new drug and a placebo pill; group 2 would receive the new drug and a Placebo Blocker; group 3 would receive two identical placebo pills; and group 4 would receive one placebo pill and one Placebo Blocker.
		+
		+	However, we still don't truly know how placebos work. Are the people in this study told what the second pill is for (a placebo blocker?) maybe that knowledge will negate the placebo entirely. For example, what if in a simple double-blind test of Drug A, the placebo group had the same results as the drug group. However, Drug B (the blocker) doesn't work. In the proposed experiment of both Drug A and Drug B, between Group 1 and Group 3, what if the placebo effect works on Placebo B, and so the placebo effect Placebo A had in the simple experiment is negated. Thus Drug A appears to be effective even though its not better than a placebo.
		+
		+	The bottom line is that it's not that easy to design an experiment to test two variables at once. [[User:TheHYPO\|TheHYPO]] ([[User talk:TheHYPO\|talk]]) 16:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:07, 19 May 2015
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	I once removed the last paragraph regarding speculations on the title text as of what could happen if there were two different pills in the bottle. But it is to me clear that there is just sugar pills, as is already explained above. And thus this paragraph is overkill. But it was inserted again after I deleted it. I vote for it to be deleted, but will let someone else do this, as not to make it a personal edit war... --[[User:Kynde\|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde\|talk]]) 16:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)		I once removed the last paragraph regarding speculations on the title text as of what could happen if there were two different pills in the bottle. But it is to me clear that there is just sugar pills, as is already explained above. And thus this paragraph is overkill. But it was inserted again after I deleted it. I vote for it to be deleted, but will let someone else do this, as not to make it a personal edit war... --[[User:Kynde\|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde\|talk]]) 16:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
		+
		+	Here's an experiment done all the way back in 1978: Levine, J.D., Gordon, N.C., and Fields, H.L. (1978). The mechanism of placebo analgesia. Lancet 2: 654-657.
		+	Summary: The researchers recruited volunteers who were undergoing tooth extraction. After surgery, one group received morphine-based drugs (most, but not all, reported pain relief). Others received placebo (about a third reported pain relief). Others yet were given placebo AND naloxone, a drug that blocks the action of opioids (none reported pain relief). The researchers concluded that administration of placebo caused the release of endogenous opioids in some patients, and naloxone worked as a placebo blocker. More recent research with functional brain imaging has confirmed that opioids and placebos activate the same brain regions (Petrovic, P., Kalso, E., Petersson, K.M., and Ingvar, M. (2002). Placebo and opioid analgesia imaging--A shared neuronal network. Science 295: 1737-1740).[[User:CLSI\|CLSI]] ([[User talk:CLSI\|talk]]) 17:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:05, 19 May 2015
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	:Why do you have to include the world placebo? Any new made up name like turgidax or pragmanol or frogans or vulpix or bligdrine will work. What is wrong with saying to the patient in the control group,"You are testing a pill of bligdrine." The patient may or may not know what placebo is, but they will certainly be not aware of bligdrine. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.48.163\|173.245.48.163]] 20:21, 18 May 2015 (UTC)BK201		:Why do you have to include the world placebo? Any new made up name like turgidax or pragmanol or frogans or vulpix or bligdrine will work. What is wrong with saying to the patient in the control group,"You are testing a pill of bligdrine." The patient may or may not know what placebo is, but they will certainly be not aware of bligdrine. [[Special:Contributions/173.245.48.163\|173.245.48.163]] 20:21, 18 May 2015 (UTC)BK201
		+
		+	I once removed the last paragraph regarding speculations on the title text as of what could happen if there were two different pills in the bottle. But it is to me clear that there is just sugar pills, as is already explained above. And thus this paragraph is overkill. But it was inserted again after I deleted it. I vote for it to be deleted, but will let someone else do this, as not to make it a personal edit war... --[[User:Kynde\|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde\|talk]]) 16:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

@@ Line 16: / Line 16: @@
 [[Special:Contributions/173.245.48.125|173.245.48.125]] 15:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
-== How to do it. ==
+;How to do it.
 Compound two sets of placebos. The control set is just sugar pills. The other set would be the blocker. Unless the active dose is massive, it'd also be partially a sugar pill already.