Talk:1724: Proofs - Revision history

Kynde at 21:22, 10 February 2025

2025-02-10T21:22:27Z

FaviFake: Fixed link (it was a redirect page)

2023-07-05T14:49:18Z

Fixed link (it was a redirect page)

172.69.42.134 at 01:40, 16 April 2021

2021-04-16T01:40:31Z

162.158.133.138 at 14:35, 29 August 2016

2016-08-29T14:35:07Z

162.158.167.35 at 07:20, 29 August 2016

2016-08-29T07:20:04Z

108.162.218.185 at 02:25, 27 August 2016

2016-08-27T02:25:25Z

Hkmaly at 13:02, 25 August 2016

2016-08-25T13:02:02Z

141.101.70.67 at 09:27, 25 August 2016

2016-08-25T09:27:28Z

Davidy22 at 08:07, 25 August 2016

2016-08-25T08:07:58Z

162.158.74.53: cm

2016-08-24T20:36:49Z

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 :: Me to, but I am on mobile, so editing is a pain [[Special:Contributions/162.158.86.71|162.158.86.71]] 06:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 :: Done [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 08:26, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
-:::Note that the BOT doesn't create any text - [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&oldid=125654 see here]. The transcript was made by several people. Agree completely that this is Miss Lenhart, but even if it was not "[http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&direction=next&oldid=125660 party 1 and party 2]" is not the way to describe a woman with long blonde hair and Cueball ;-) There is at the moment [[explain_xkcd:Community_portal/Proposals#New_character_category_for_blonde_woman_news_reporter_.28from_1699.29|a discussion]] what to call other women looking like this (i.e. those that are not clearly Miss Lenhart, [[Mrs. Roberts]] or her daughter [[Help I'm trapped in a driver's license factory Elaine Roberts|Elaine Roberts]]). Chip in there if you have any opinions on that regard... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
+:::Note that the BOT doesn't create any text - [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&oldid=125654 see here]. The transcript was made by several people. Agree completely that this is Miss Lenhart, but even if it was not "[http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&direction=next&oldid=125660 party 1 and party 2]" is not the way to describe a woman with long blonde hair and Cueball ;-) There is at the moment [[explain_xkcd:Community_portal/Proposals#New_character_category_for_blonde_woman_news_reporter_.28from_1699.29|a discussion]] what to call other women looking like this (i.e. those that are not clearly Miss Lenhart, [[Mrs. Roberts]] or her daughter [[Elaine Roberts]]). Chip in there if you have any opinions on that regard... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

@@ Line 7: / Line 7: @@
 :: Me to, but I am on mobile, so editing is a pain [[Special:Contributions/162.158.86.71|162.158.86.71]] 06:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 :: Done [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 08:26, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
-:::Note that the BOT doesn't create any text - [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&oldid=125654 see here]. The transcript was made by several people. Agree completely that this is Miss Lenhart, but even if it was not "[http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&direction=next&oldid=125660 party 1 and party 2]" is not the way to describe a woman with long blonde hair and Cueball ;-) There is at the moment [[explain_xkcd:Community_portal/Proposals#New_character_category_for_blonde_woman_news_reporter_.28from_1699.29|a discussion]] what to call other women looking like this (i.e. those that are not clearly Miss Lenhart, [[Mrs. Roberts]] or her daughter [[Elaine Roberts]]). Chip in there if you have any opinions on that regard... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
+:::Note that the BOT doesn't create any text - [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&oldid=125654 see here]. The transcript was made by several people. Agree completely that this is Miss Lenhart, but even if it was not "[http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&direction=next&oldid=125660 party 1 and party 2]" is not the way to describe a woman with long blonde hair and Cueball ;-) There is at the moment [[explain_xkcd:Community_portal/Proposals#New_character_category_for_blonde_woman_news_reporter_.28from_1699.29|a discussion]] what to call other women looking like this (i.e. those that are not clearly Miss Lenhart, [[Mrs. Roberts]] or her daughter [[Help I'm trapped in a driver's license factory Elaine Roberts|Elaine Roberts]]). Chip in there if you have any opinions on that regard... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 11:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:40, 16 April 2021
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	Simplest explanation would be Cueball suspect Ms Lenhart already made-up an answer for a made-up function (hence ''magic''), which is confirmed at the last panel. Laymen like myself wouldn't grasp any of those methamathematical stuff explanation. :) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.167.35\|162.158.167.35]] 07:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)		Simplest explanation would be Cueball suspect Ms Lenhart already made-up an answer for a made-up function (hence ''magic''), which is confirmed at the last panel. Laymen like myself wouldn't grasp any of those methamathematical stuff explanation. :) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.167.35\|162.158.167.35]] 07:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
	: There is no such thing, like "answer for a function", so you can't be right. And this interpretation is completely ignoring the mathematical similarities, yet it was [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&diff=125861&oldid=125829 introduced] as a summary of the mathematical explanation. If you don't grasp the idea, don't try to summarize it, please. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.133.138\|162.158.133.138]] 14:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)		: There is no such thing, like "answer for a function", so you can't be right. And this interpretation is completely ignoring the mathematical similarities, yet it was [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&diff=125861&oldid=125829 introduced] as a summary of the mathematical explanation. If you don't grasp the idea, don't try to summarize it, please. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.133.138\|162.158.133.138]] 14:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
		+
		+	I think the explanation of Godel's incompleteness theorem is not quite right. I've always heard the precise formulation of it as "Any logical system powerful enough to include basic arithmetic has statements that are true but cannot be proven or disproven within the system." I would edit the page to reflect this, but to be honest I'm not that confident in my understanding of it.[[Special:Contributions/172.69.42.134\|172.69.42.134]] 01:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:35, 29 August 2016
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	Simplest explanation would be Cueball suspect Ms Lenhart already made-up an answer for a made-up function (hence ''magic''), which is confirmed at the last panel. Laymen like myself wouldn't grasp any of those methamathematical stuff explanation. :) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.167.35\|162.158.167.35]] 07:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)		Simplest explanation would be Cueball suspect Ms Lenhart already made-up an answer for a made-up function (hence ''magic''), which is confirmed at the last panel. Laymen like myself wouldn't grasp any of those methamathematical stuff explanation. :) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.167.35\|162.158.167.35]] 07:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
		+	: There is no such thing, like "answer for a function", so you can't be right. And this interpretation is completely ignoring the mathematical similarities, yet it was [http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1724:_Proofs&diff=125861&oldid=125829 introduced] as a summary of the mathematical explanation. If you don't grasp the idea, don't try to summarize it, please. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.133.138\|162.158.133.138]] 14:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:20, 29 August 2016
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	I don't like how this explanation uses the word "standard". Non-standard mathematical objects are subjects of non-standard analysis, not metamathematics. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.218.185\|108.162.218.185]] 02:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)		I don't like how this explanation uses the word "standard". Non-standard mathematical objects are subjects of non-standard analysis, not metamathematics. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.218.185\|108.162.218.185]] 02:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
		+
		+	Simplest explanation would be Cueball suspect Ms Lenhart already made-up an answer for a made-up function (hence ''magic''), which is confirmed at the last panel. Laymen like myself wouldn't grasp any of those methamathematical stuff explanation. :) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.167.35\|162.158.167.35]] 07:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:25, 27 August 2016
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	:While technically the same pattern, I would assume something more like NP-complete proofs: Assume we have function F which solves this problem in polynomial time ... then we can solve that problem in polynomial time as well. Just, instead of "polynomial time", the existence of function is the question here, so it will likely be something around {{w\|Recursively enumerable set\|recursively enumerable}}/{{w\|countable set\|countable}} stuff. -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 13:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)		:While technically the same pattern, I would assume something more like NP-complete proofs: Assume we have function F which solves this problem in polynomial time ... then we can solve that problem in polynomial time as well. Just, instead of "polynomial time", the existence of function is the question here, so it will likely be something around {{w\|Recursively enumerable set\|recursively enumerable}}/{{w\|countable set\|countable}} stuff. -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 13:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
		+
		+	I don't like how this explanation uses the word "standard". Non-standard mathematical objects are subjects of non-standard analysis, not metamathematics. --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.218.185\|108.162.218.185]] 02:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

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	I feel like it is a stretch to assert Lenhart is setting up a proof by contradiction. It sounded to me more like an prior knowledge proof (not sure it's technical name). For example, "calculate the space between two concentric circles of differing diameter when the longest straight line you can draw is length d." If you assume there is a function F(r1, r2) which has been previously proven to calculate this space, then it is easy to show that the space is in fact .5pi(.5*d)^2 (as you have a degenerative case where r1=0, and you have an ordinary circle). I also think this type of proof is more "dark magic"-feeling than a simple proof by contradiction. {{unsigned ip\|108.162.216.87}}		I feel like it is a stretch to assert Lenhart is setting up a proof by contradiction. It sounded to me more like an prior knowledge proof (not sure it's technical name). For example, "calculate the space between two concentric circles of differing diameter when the longest straight line you can draw is length d." If you assume there is a function F(r1, r2) which has been previously proven to calculate this space, then it is easy to show that the space is in fact .5pi(.5*d)^2 (as you have a degenerative case where r1=0, and you have an ordinary circle). I also think this type of proof is more "dark magic"-feeling than a simple proof by contradiction. {{unsigned ip\|108.162.216.87}}
		+
		+	:While technically the same pattern, I would assume something more like NP-complete proofs: Assume we have function F which solves this problem in polynomial time ... then we can solve that problem in polynomial time as well. Just, instead of "polynomial time", the existence of function is the question here, so it will likely be something around {{w\|Recursively enumerable set\|recursively enumerable}}/{{w\|countable set\|countable}} stuff. -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 13:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

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 Judging from my experience when I first encountered proofs in math classes (or my general experience from math classes), the teacher is going to write down a "proof" which makes absolutely no sense to students and is also never explained in a way that actually makes them understand. Instead, they are just going to use "dark magic" and write what seems to be completely senseless to students.
 [[Special:Contributions/141.101.91.223|141.101.91.223]] 04:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 Transcript generated by the BOT was murdering me, had to change it. Proposing miss Lenhart is party 1. [[User:EppOch|EppOch]] ([[User talk:EppOch|talk]]) 04:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:07, 25 August 2016
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	:I agree. I read the title text in almost exactly the opposite way - that the proof relies on the existence of a deterministic process for selecting objects, and therefore the invocation of the axiom of choice as a part of the process is superfluous (but not a contradiction). Anyhow, the axiom of determinacy isn't ever mentioned, so it probably shouldn't be shoehorned in here. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.53\|162.158.74.53]] 20:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)		:I agree. I read the title text in almost exactly the opposite way - that the proof relies on the existence of a deterministic process for selecting objects, and therefore the invocation of the axiom of choice as a part of the process is superfluous (but not a contradiction). Anyhow, the axiom of determinacy isn't ever mentioned, so it probably shouldn't be shoehorned in here. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.53\|162.158.74.53]] 20:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

−	I feel like it is a stretch to assert Lenhart is setting up a proof by contradiction. It sounded to me more like an prior knowledge proof (not sure it's technical name). For example, "calculate the space between two concentric circles of differing diameter when the longest straight line you can draw is length d." If you assume there is a function F(r1, r2) which has been previously proven to calculate this space, then it is easy to show that the space is in fact .5pi(.5*d)^2 (as you have a degenerative case where r1=0, and you have an ordinary circle). I also think this type of proof is more "dark magic"-feeling than a simple proof by contradiction.	+	I feel like it is a stretch to assert Lenhart is setting up a proof by contradiction. It sounded to me more like an prior knowledge proof (not sure it's technical name). For example, "calculate the space between two concentric circles of differing diameter when the longest straight line you can draw is length d." If you assume there is a function F(r1, r2) which has been previously proven to calculate this space, then it is easy to show that the space is in fact .5pi(.5*d)^2 (as you have a degenerative case where r1=0, and you have an ordinary circle). I also think this type of proof is more "dark magic"-feeling than a simple proof by contradiction. {{unsigned ip\|108.162.216.87}}

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 ----
 "''In the title text the decision of whether to take the axiom of choice is made by a deterministic process. The axiom of determinacy is incompatible with the axiom of choice...''"  The axiom of determinacy is not really relevant to deterministic processes - it is about (certain types of two-players-) games and says that any such game is determined (that is, some player has a winning strategy). So this axiom is not relevant to the title text --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.83.66|162.158.83.66]] 17:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
+:I agree. I read the title text in almost exactly the opposite way - that the proof relies on the existence of a deterministic process for selecting objects, and therefore the invocation of the axiom of choice  as a part of the process is superfluous (but not a contradiction). Anyhow, the axiom of determinacy isn't ever mentioned, so it probably shouldn't be shoehorned in here. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.53|162.158.74.53]] 20:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 I feel like it is a stretch to assert Lenhart is setting up a proof by contradiction. It sounded to me more like an prior knowledge proof (not sure it's technical name). For example, "calculate the space between two concentric circles of differing diameter when the longest straight line you can draw is length d." If you assume there is a function F(r1, r2) which has been previously proven to calculate this space, then it is easy to show that the space is in fact .5*pi*(.5*d)^2 (as you have a degenerative case where r1=0, and you have an ordinary circle). I also think this type of proof is more "dark magic"-feeling than a simple proof by contradiction.