Talk:2011: Newton's Trajectories - Revision history

Char Latte49 at 00:04, 14 September 2022

2022-09-14T00:04:28Z

141.101.99.131: Reply

2018-06-28T06:28:41Z

172.68.46.191: Commented

2018-06-28T00:18:52Z

Commented

162.158.126.94 at 19:40, 25 June 2018

2018-06-25T19:40:24Z

ProphetZarquon at 17:55, 25 June 2018

2018-06-25T17:55:28Z

ProphetZarquon: Neun Und Neunzig Luftballons, to be precise.

2018-06-25T17:54:26Z

Neun Und Neunzig Luftballons, to be precise.

198.41.230.10: consider death by solar expansion

2018-06-25T16:48:01Z

consider death by solar expansion

OtherBarry: Mr. Jane was British, so his company uses the British spelling of "Defence". My bad.

2018-06-25T16:07:34Z

Mr. Jane was British, so his company uses the British spelling of "Defence". My bad.

OtherBarry: Arguing that this is very much a comic about satellites and ICBMs

2018-06-25T15:46:51Z

Arguing that this is very much a comic about satellites and ICBMs

N0lqu at 15:03, 25 June 2018

2018-06-25T15:03:04Z

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ::''Neun Und Neunzig Luftballons'', to say the title of the original German version in its native tongue.
 ::[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 17:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 :Except (as far as we know) Newton never considered parabolic trajectories. Whether he did or didn't, the original diagram didn't show anything beyond a circular orbit. [[User:Mr. I|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I|talk]]) 12:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 :Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit.  Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it.  Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained.  So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 When Jane's Defence discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles.  The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--
@@ Line 22: / Line 20: @@
 Fiery death is also mankinds's future if we remain passive and refrain from destroying ourselves, since the sun will eventually grow to engulf the earth. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#Solar_evolution Solar Evolution]) So the comic is not necessarily as pessimistic as some may think. However, he leaves out the possibility of civilization ending in a non-fiery way before this event. [[Special:Contributions/198.41.230.10|198.41.230.10]] 16:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
-Note that for this comic the launch angle is near vertical and for all cases the object launched is steered in flight to the final trajectory. For Newton's canonball the ball was launched horizontal to the local Earth surface from a high mountain.  A canonball launched vertically appears to be acted on by "forces" when seen from the Earth frame of reference. These "forces" depend on the launch site, altitude and velocity of the object - they are due to the rotating frame of reference.  Baring atmospheric resistance, the only true forces on the ball after launch is gravity.  But it is certainly true a ball fired vertically from anywhere but the poles does not land back at the site of launch due to the rotation of the Earth.  For canon available in Newtons day corrections to aim were not necessary but by the late 1800's big guns were firing projectiles far and high enough that corrections for Coriolis forces were required. Corrections were pre-calculated for range and firing direction for whatever theater of war the gun was being used.
+Note that for this comic the launch angle is near vertical and for all cases the object launched is steered in flight to the final trajectory. For Newton's canonball the ball was launched horizontal to the local Earth surface from a high mountain.  A canonball launched vertically appears to be acted on by "forces" when seen from the Earth frame of reference. These "forces" depend on the launch site, altitude and velocity of the object - they are due to the rotating frame of reference.  Baring atmospheric resistance, the only true forces on the ball after launch is gravity.  But it is certainly true a ball fired vertically from anywhere but the poles does not land back at the site of launch due to the rotation of the Earth.  For canon available in Newtons day corrections to aim were not necessary but by the late 1800's big guns were firing projectiles far and high enough that corrections for Coriolis forces were required. Corrections were pre-calculated for range and firing direction for whatever theater of war the gun was being used. {{unsigned ip|162.158.126.94}}

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ::''Neun Und Neunzig Luftballons'', to say the title of the original German version in its native tongue.
 ::[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 17:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 :Except (as far as we know) Newton never considered parabolic trajectories. Whether he did or didn't, the original diagram didn't show anything beyond a circular orbit. [[User:Mr. I|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I|talk]]) 12:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 :Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit.  Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it.  Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained.  So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 When Jane's Defence discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles.  The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:40, 25 June 2018
Line 19:		Line 19:

	Fiery death is also mankinds's future if we remain passive and refrain from destroying ourselves, since the sun will eventually grow to engulf the earth. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#Solar_evolution Solar Evolution]) So the comic is not necessarily as pessimistic as some may think. However, he leaves out the possibility of civilization ending in a non-fiery way before this event. [[Special:Contributions/198.41.230.10\|198.41.230.10]] 16:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		Fiery death is also mankinds's future if we remain passive and refrain from destroying ourselves, since the sun will eventually grow to engulf the earth. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#Solar_evolution Solar Evolution]) So the comic is not necessarily as pessimistic as some may think. However, he leaves out the possibility of civilization ending in a non-fiery way before this event. [[Special:Contributions/198.41.230.10\|198.41.230.10]] 16:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
		+
		+	Note that for this comic the launch angle is near vertical and for all cases the object launched is steered in flight to the final trajectory. For Newton's canonball the ball was launched horizontal to the local Earth surface from a high mountain. A canonball launched vertically appears to be acted on by "forces" when seen from the Earth frame of reference. These "forces" depend on the launch site, altitude and velocity of the object - they are due to the rotating frame of reference. Baring atmospheric resistance, the only true forces on the ball after launch is gravity. But it is certainly true a ball fired vertically from anywhere but the poles does not land back at the site of launch due to the rotation of the Earth. For canon available in Newtons day corrections to aim were not necessary but by the late 1800's big guns were firing projectiles far and high enough that corrections for Coriolis forces were required. Corrections were pre-calculated for range and firing direction for whatever theater of war the gun was being used.

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 :Ninety-nine red balloons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons) by Nena - [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.148|108.162.219.148]] 08:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 ::''Neun Und Neunzig Luftballons'', to say the title of the original German version in its native tongue.
-[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 17:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
+::[[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 17:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:54, 25 June 2018
Line 9:		Line 9:

	:Ninety-nine red balloons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons) by Nena - [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.148\|108.162.219.148]] 08:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		:Ninety-nine red balloons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons) by Nena - [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.148\|108.162.219.148]] 08:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
		+	::''Neun Und Neunzig Luftballons'', to say the title of the original German version in its native tongue.
		+	[[User:ProphetZarquon\|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon\|talk]]) 17:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

	I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7\|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7\|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7\|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7\|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:48, 25 June 2018
Line 15:		Line 15:

	When Jane's Defence discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles. The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--		When Jane's Defence discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles. The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--
		+
		+	Fiery death is also mankinds's future if we remain passive and refrain from destroying ourselves, since the sun will eventually grow to engulf the earth. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth#Solar_evolution Solar Evolution]) So the comic is not necessarily as pessimistic as some may think. However, he leaves out the possibility of civilization ending in a non-fiery way before this event. [[Special:Contributions/198.41.230.10\|198.41.230.10]] 16:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:07, 25 June 2018
Line 14:		Line 14:
	:Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit. Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it. Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained. So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu\|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu\|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		:Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit. Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it. Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained. So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu\|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu\|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

−	When Jane's ~~Defense~~ discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles. The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--	+	When Jane's Defence discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles. The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:46, 25 June 2018
Line 13:		Line 13:
	:Except (as far as we know) Newton never considered parabolic trajectories. Whether he did or didn't, the original diagram didn't show anything beyond a circular orbit. [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 12:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		:Except (as far as we know) Newton never considered parabolic trajectories. Whether he did or didn't, the original diagram didn't show anything beyond a circular orbit. [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 12:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
	:Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit. Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it. Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained. So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu\|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu\|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		:Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit. Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it. Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained. So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu\|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu\|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
		+
		+	When Jane's Defense discusses strategic (read: nuclear) weapons systems, they do not distinguish between satellite delivery vehicles and ICBM launch vehicles. The only differences are the trajectory and the payload. This comic is definitely about satellites and ICBMs. I'm new here, sorry if I'm not signing this properly --OtherBarry--

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:03, 25 June 2018
Line 12:		Line 12:
	I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7\|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7\|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		I was surprised to see the quote 'slip the bonds of earth' on a circular orbit. This seems pretty bound to earth. Wouldn't it have made more sense to include a parabolic escape trajectory? --[[User:Quantum7\|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7\|talk]]) 10:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
	:Except (as far as we know) Newton never considered parabolic trajectories. Whether he did or didn't, the original diagram didn't show anything beyond a circular orbit. [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 12:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)		:Except (as far as we know) Newton never considered parabolic trajectories. Whether he did or didn't, the original diagram didn't show anything beyond a circular orbit. [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 12:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
		+	:Maybe because the hard part is attaining a stable orbit. Once you do that, it's relatively trivial to escape it. Indeed even the orbit itself, while being determined by Earth, can be considered an escape since you will never again come back to Earth as long as that orbit is maintained. So Randall may have considered that close enough to talk about escaping the bonds of earth (which the stable orbit accomplished) and traveling to the stars (which is the logical next step; or at least to moons and planets so far in our case). [[User:N0lqu\|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu\|talk]]) 15:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)