Talk:2066: Ballot Selfies - Revision history

108.162.216.105: Comme

2024-10-31T17:31:12Z

Comme

Brettpeirce at 14:57, 7 February 2019

2019-02-07T14:57:57Z

Brettpeirce at 14:52, 7 February 2019

2019-02-07T14:52:01Z

Brettpeirce at 14:51, 7 February 2019

2019-02-07T14:51:22Z

172.69.210.52 at 21:21, 14 November 2018

2018-11-14T21:21:43Z

Dgbrt: Please sign your comments.

2018-11-12T20:13:36Z

Please sign your comments.

Naraht: From someone who lived the Ballot Selfie law.

2018-11-12T15:47:48Z

From someone who lived the Ballot Selfie law.

162.158.91.185 at 11:04, 6 November 2018

2018-11-06T11:04:07Z

Dgbrt: Please sign your comments.

2018-11-05T21:00:51Z

Please sign your comments.

Xkcdreader52 at 08:17, 4 November 2018

2018-11-04T08:17:23Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:31, 31 October 2024
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	TL;DR - Not legal in Maryland with explanation attached. {{unsigned\|Naraht}}		TL;DR - Not legal in Maryland with explanation attached. {{unsigned\|Naraht}}
		+
		+	Personally, I would support ballot selfies being illegal, but explicitly being a violation, not a misdemeanor, and having no associated punishment. So contracts asking for a ballot selfie are illegal, but prosecution can’t do anything to stop people.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.105\|108.162.216.105]] 17:31, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

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 ::Not just positive coercion but also negative - spouses, religious leaders, or whomever demanding proof that you'd voted the way they told you to "or else." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.58.113|172.68.58.113]] 12:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 :::This is EXACTLY my point.  My concern would be employers (e.g. Hobby Lobby) making voting for or against a specific candidate or issue a condition of employment.  If ballot selfies are allowed, then there is no way to stop this.  I don't mind selfies of people going into the polling place.  However, there should be no (legal) way to take a picture of your ballot and make it public, including another voter, accidentally or not, capturing you and your ballot in the background of their selfie. {{unsigned ip|162.158.75.196}}
 ::But you could also take a picture of your vote, then request a new ballot due to making a mistake.  Picture proof to collect your $1k, and still making the vote you really wanted.  [[Special:Contributions/172.69.210.52|172.69.210.52]] 21:21, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 In the United kingdom it is illegal to take a phtograph of the ballot paper even if no vote is recorded - as such an image could reveal the mark used to authenticate the ballot paper.

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ::: But you could just print out the photo, and it becomes physical, unhackable proof. {{unsigned ip|162.158.79.101}}
 ::: Additionally, to fake your vote, all they need to do is lie. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.93.27|162.158.93.27]] 00:55, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
-:: Ummm... wut? if they are going to hack the vote, winner-take-all statues mean they only need to hack so there's a simple majority in a majority of districts... nowhere NEAR enough people will have proof to outweigh that, except to the point where the government is truly totalitarian, at which point arresting you for taking that selfie becomes a much easier way to remove you from the voting process, than "hacking" voting registers.
+:: Ummm... wut? if they are going to hack the vote, winner-take-all statues mean they only need to hack so there's a simple majority in a majority of districts... nowhere NEAR enough people will have proof to outweigh that, except to the point where the government is truly totalitarian, at which point arresting you for taking that selfie becomes a much easier way to remove you from the voting process, than "hacking" voting registers. -- [[User:Brettpeirce|Brettpeirce]] ([[User talk:Brettpeirce|talk]]) 14:52, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 : Banning photos in polling stations is sensible. If I offered you $1,000 to vote for Trump you would be mad not to agree - you could vote how you wanted, and tell me you voted for Trump and get your money. If photos were allowed, to get your money I could request a photo of you with your ballot paper. If people can take photos of their vote, people can buy votes. If they can't, it's much more difficult to do that. [[User:DrDave|DrDave]] ([[User talk:DrDave|talk]]) 12:44, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::Not just positive coercion but also negative - spouses, religious leaders, or whomever demanding proof that you'd voted the way they told you to "or else." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.58.113|172.68.58.113]] 12:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ::: But you could just print out the photo, and it becomes physical, unhackable proof. {{unsigned ip|162.158.79.101}}
 ::: Additionally, to fake your vote, all they need to do is lie. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.93.27|162.158.93.27]] 00:55, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 : Banning photos in polling stations is sensible. If I offered you $1,000 to vote for Trump you would be mad not to agree - you could vote how you wanted, and tell me you voted for Trump and get your money. If photos were allowed, to get your money I could request a photo of you with your ballot paper. If people can take photos of their vote, people can buy votes. If they can't, it's much more difficult to do that. [[User:DrDave|DrDave]] ([[User talk:DrDave|talk]]) 12:44, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 ::Not just positive coercion but also negative - spouses, religious leaders, or whomever demanding proof that you'd voted the way they told you to "or else." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.58.113|172.68.58.113]] 12:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

@@ Line 14: / Line 14: @@
 ::Not just positive coercion but also negative - spouses, religious leaders, or whomever demanding proof that you'd voted the way they told you to "or else." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.58.113|172.68.58.113]] 12:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 :::This is EXACTLY my point.  My concern would be employers (e.g. Hobby Lobby) making voting for or against a specific candidate or issue a condition of employment.  If ballot selfies are allowed, then there is no way to stop this.  I don't mind selfies of people going into the polling place.  However, there should be no (legal) way to take a picture of your ballot and make it public, including another voter, accidentally or not, capturing you and your ballot in the background of their selfie. {{unsigned ip|162.158.75.196}}
 In the United kingdom it is illegal to take a phtograph of the ballot paper even if no vote is recorded - as such an image could reveal the mark used to authenticate the ballot paper.
 Until recently this was a pattern of holed stamped into the paper as it is issued, though now printed bar codes are used. Theoretically if you know the mark, you could then stuff a ballot box. Although if the number of papers does not match that recorded by the returning clerk then the entire box would be declared invalid and the election rerun. [[User:Arachrah|Arachrah]] ([[User talk:Arachrah|talk]]) 16:45, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 Personally, I think that allowing ballot selfies is undemocratic. The fact that postal voting and electronic voting may compromise secrecy or that someone might secret take a picture anyway is not a justification - it means that people should be encouraged to vote in person, that there should be safeguards and observers from different parties for the count and that electronic voting (which comprises either secrecy or integrity) should be banned (which is actually the case in many or most European countries), and '''not''' that you should just give up on secrecy. Secrecy is integral to free elections. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.185|162.158.91.185]] 11:04, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
-===Comment from an actual Maryland Voting Chief Judge ===
+'''Comment from an actual Maryland Voting Chief Judge'''
 Being a Chief in Maryland means that I run a precinct with a co-chief who can not be registered with the same party. Maryland does ban the use of cell phones in precincts, to the point where there is a sign at the entrance to the precinct room saying that cell phones must be turned off. Voting Operations Judges (the people who work for me on election day) are not allowed to have phones either. My co-chief and I *do* for contact with the Board of Elections only. In practice, the no cell phone rule is based on two pillars, one being the Ballot Selfie reason, and the other, being that cell phones ringing or talking on cell phones is very annoying while people only 3 feet away from you are also voting. Yes, the fraud concept could be circumvented by taking a picture of your ballot and then screwing it up, filling in every circle and then when the scanner rejects it, getting a replacement ballot and voting the way that you want. (Maryland does it by filling out paper with bubbles like a standardized test and then scanning *and* keeping the ballot.
@@ Line 39: / Line 38: @@
 OTOH, my county's Board of Elections *does* encourage I voted selfies. Get your "I voted" stickers stand out in the hall and have fun. I've even volunteered to take photos of families!
-TL;DR - Not legal in Maryland with explanation attached.
+TL;DR - Not legal in Maryland with explanation attached. {{unsigned|Naraht}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:47, 12 November 2018
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	Now, there are people who encourage others to do ballot selfies to encourage turnout. But say, your friends all vote for Party A (the majority where you live) but you want to vote for Party B or Party C. Your friends are totally on board with the ballot selfie idea because they think it will increase voter turnout and pressure you to also participate. Now you either have to either justify who you're voting for, justify not sharing or give in to peer pressure. <br/>		Now, there are people who encourage others to do ballot selfies to encourage turnout. But say, your friends all vote for Party A (the majority where you live) but you want to vote for Party B or Party C. Your friends are totally on board with the ballot selfie idea because they think it will increase voter turnout and pressure you to also participate. Now you either have to either justify who you're voting for, justify not sharing or give in to peer pressure. <br/>
	Personally, I think that allowing ballot selfies is undemocratic. The fact that postal voting and electronic voting may compromise secrecy or that someone might secret take a picture anyway is not a justification - it means that people should be encouraged to vote in person, that there should be safeguards and observers from different parties for the count and that electronic voting (which comprises either secrecy or integrity) should be banned (which is actually the case in many or most European countries), and '''not''' that you should just give up on secrecy. Secrecy is integral to free elections. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.185\|162.158.91.185]] 11:04, 6 November 2018 (UTC)		Personally, I think that allowing ballot selfies is undemocratic. The fact that postal voting and electronic voting may compromise secrecy or that someone might secret take a picture anyway is not a justification - it means that people should be encouraged to vote in person, that there should be safeguards and observers from different parties for the count and that electronic voting (which comprises either secrecy or integrity) should be banned (which is actually the case in many or most European countries), and '''not''' that you should just give up on secrecy. Secrecy is integral to free elections. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.185\|162.158.91.185]] 11:04, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
		+
		+	===Comment from an actual Maryland Voting Chief Judge ===
		+	(Not sure this should get a section header, but oh well.)
		+
		+	Being a Chief in Maryland means that I run a precinct with a co-chief who can not be registered with the same party. Maryland does ban the use of cell phones in precincts, to the point where there is a sign at the entrance to the precinct room saying that cell phones must be turned off. Voting Operations Judges (the people who work for me on election day) are not allowed to have phones either. My co-chief and I do for contact with the Board of Elections only. In practice, the no cell phone rule is based on two pillars, one being the Ballot Selfie reason, and the other, being that cell phones ringing or talking on cell phones is very annoying while people only 3 feet away from you are also voting. Yes, the fraud concept could be circumvented by taking a picture of your ballot and then screwing it up, filling in every circle and then when the scanner rejects it, getting a replacement ballot and voting the way that you want. (Maryland does it by filling out paper with bubbles like a standardized test and then scanning and keeping the ballot.
		+
		+	However in the 2018 election, I first started running into people putting who they wanted to vote for on their phone and then not being able to use it once they got to the precinct (The solution given is to hand the voter a piece of paper and a pen, stepping out and allowing them to copy the information down. But as that becomes more common, I'm not sure what the solution is. If I thought that half the people who walked into my precinct understood how to put their phones into airplane mode, I'd support that, but I've had too many people walk into my precinct who didn't know how to turn their phone off, so I'm not holding out much hope for that in the next decade.
		+
		+	As for the oil painting in the photo, as a Chief Judge, I'd be really torn. On the one hand, that would be really neat, on the other, they would be using a voting booth for much, much longer than most voters, and while anyone who enters by closing is allowed to vote, this probably keep me from going home at a reasonable hour. If they picked one of the less used Early Voting centers in my county on a slow day and started first thing in the morning, maybe they'd finish...
		+
		+	OTOH, my county's Board of Elections does encourage I voted selfies. Get your "I voted" stickers stand out in the hall and have fun. I've even volunteered to take photos of families!
		+
		+	TL;DR - Not legal in Maryland with explanation attached.

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:04, 6 November 2018
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	I have a question with this, what if you don't post your ballot selfies anywhere on social media platforms like Snapchat, Instagram, Imgur or Twitter and keeping the picture on your phone? Will they still be able to arrest you and find you guilty?Boeing-787lover 08:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC) {{unsigned\|Xkcdreader52}}		I have a question with this, what if you don't post your ballot selfies anywhere on social media platforms like Snapchat, Instagram, Imgur or Twitter and keeping the picture on your phone? Will they still be able to arrest you and find you guilty?Boeing-787lover 08:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC) {{unsigned\|Xkcdreader52}}
		+
		+
		+	Something that I think you should consider is not just fraud and vote buying but people who do ballot selfies pressing others to do the same (which is actually happening!). In the GDR (East Germany) you were technically ''allowed'' to vote in secret but it was not mandatory. The result: if you voted secret you were considered part of the opposition and persecuted. <br/>
		+	Now, there are people who encourage others to do ballot selfies to encourage turnout. But say, your friends all vote for Party A (the majority where you live) but you want to vote for Party B or Party C. Your friends are totally on board with the ballot selfie idea because they think it will increase voter turnout and pressure you to also participate. Now you either have to either justify who you're voting for, justify not sharing or give in to peer pressure. <br/>
		+	Personally, I think that allowing ballot selfies is undemocratic. The fact that postal voting and electronic voting may compromise secrecy or that someone might secret take a picture anyway is not a justification - it means that people should be encouraged to vote in person, that there should be safeguards and observers from different parties for the count and that electronic voting (which comprises either secrecy or integrity) should be banned (which is actually the case in many or most European countries), and '''not''' that you should just give up on secrecy. Secrecy is integral to free elections. --[[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.185\|162.158.91.185]] 11:04, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:00, 5 November 2018
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	::::Hey SteveBaker; I really agree with your views here. I notice you removed the phrase "violent coercion" which I added when you made your edits. I have a smidge of experience with being violently coerced to do things, and how crowds of people who are for example addicted to the products of a drug lord can be forced to behave as he or she wishes in order to continue their lives. I feel it's really valuable to use the word "violent" here to bring people's minds into how intense this could become, or could be already in areas where votes are provable. I'll try a little to add it back, but if I disrupt the new flow I'm sorry, I do not mean to. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.226\|172.69.62.226]] 18:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)		::::Hey SteveBaker; I really agree with your views here. I notice you removed the phrase "violent coercion" which I added when you made your edits. I have a smidge of experience with being violently coerced to do things, and how crowds of people who are for example addicted to the products of a drug lord can be forced to behave as he or she wishes in order to continue their lives. I feel it's really valuable to use the word "violent" here to bring people's minds into how intense this could become, or could be already in areas where votes are provable. I'll try a little to add it back, but if I disrupt the new flow I'm sorry, I do not mean to. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.226\|172.69.62.226]] 18:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

−	I have a question with this, what if you don't post your ballot selfies anywhere on social media platforms like Snapchat, Instagram, Imgur or Twitter and keeping the picture on your phone? Will they still be able to arrest you and find you guilty?Boeing-787lover 08:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)	+	I have a question with this, what if you don't post your ballot selfies anywhere on social media platforms like Snapchat, Instagram, Imgur or Twitter and keeping the picture on your phone? Will they still be able to arrest you and find you guilty?Boeing-787lover 08:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC) {{unsigned\|Xkcdreader52}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:17, 4 November 2018
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	:::It's not about counterfeits - it's about The Secrecy Of The Ballot. It is essential to a free and fair election that the voter can vote in complete secrecy AND that they be completely unable to prove how they voted (or indeed, if they voted at all). In the UK, the way you voted (or IF you voted at all) is intended to be completely secret - only you know - and you have NO WAY to prove it. But selfies, printed paper receipts from eletronic voting machines and online or postal voting all circumvent that concept. The concept is important because if someone tries to coerce you to voting in a way you do not wish to - then that coercion will be ineffective if they cannot confirm that you did as they wanted you do to. I've updated the explain to try to cover this point more carefully. However, this alone is not enough - an evil-doer can instead find people who are demographically-likely to vote against their preferred candidate and instead coerce them to not vote at all - which isn't as effective as forcing them to vote the opposite way - but is still enough to flip the election. Some laws (such as in Texas) that make it increasingly hard for poorer people to vote by demanding proof-of-identity in ways they cannot manage is a classic example of that. Even a homeless person has a right to vote - but without papers that establish that they are who they claim to be - they are effectively disenfranchised - which is unconstitutional. [[User:SteveBaker\|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker\|talk]]) 13:25, 1 November 2018 (UTC)		:::It's not about counterfeits - it's about The Secrecy Of The Ballot. It is essential to a free and fair election that the voter can vote in complete secrecy AND that they be completely unable to prove how they voted (or indeed, if they voted at all). In the UK, the way you voted (or IF you voted at all) is intended to be completely secret - only you know - and you have NO WAY to prove it. But selfies, printed paper receipts from eletronic voting machines and online or postal voting all circumvent that concept. The concept is important because if someone tries to coerce you to voting in a way you do not wish to - then that coercion will be ineffective if they cannot confirm that you did as they wanted you do to. I've updated the explain to try to cover this point more carefully. However, this alone is not enough - an evil-doer can instead find people who are demographically-likely to vote against their preferred candidate and instead coerce them to not vote at all - which isn't as effective as forcing them to vote the opposite way - but is still enough to flip the election. Some laws (such as in Texas) that make it increasingly hard for poorer people to vote by demanding proof-of-identity in ways they cannot manage is a classic example of that. Even a homeless person has a right to vote - but without papers that establish that they are who they claim to be - they are effectively disenfranchised - which is unconstitutional. [[User:SteveBaker\|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker\|talk]]) 13:25, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
	::::Hey SteveBaker; I really agree with your views here. I notice you removed the phrase "violent coercion" which I added when you made your edits. I have a smidge of experience with being violently coerced to do things, and how crowds of people who are for example addicted to the products of a drug lord can be forced to behave as he or she wishes in order to continue their lives. I feel it's really valuable to use the word "violent" here to bring people's minds into how intense this could become, or could be already in areas where votes are provable. I'll try a little to add it back, but if I disrupt the new flow I'm sorry, I do not mean to. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.226\|172.69.62.226]] 18:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)		::::Hey SteveBaker; I really agree with your views here. I notice you removed the phrase "violent coercion" which I added when you made your edits. I have a smidge of experience with being violently coerced to do things, and how crowds of people who are for example addicted to the products of a drug lord can be forced to behave as he or she wishes in order to continue their lives. I feel it's really valuable to use the word "violent" here to bring people's minds into how intense this could become, or could be already in areas where votes are provable. I'll try a little to add it back, but if I disrupt the new flow I'm sorry, I do not mean to. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.226\|172.69.62.226]] 18:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
		+
		+	I have a question with this, what if you don't post your ballot selfies anywhere on social media platforms like Snapchat, Instagram, Imgur or Twitter and keeping the picture on your phone? Will they still be able to arrest you and find you guilty?Boeing-787lover 08:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)