Talk:2117: Differentiation and Integration - Revision history

EricM at 00:59, 2 August 2024

2024-08-02T00:59:10Z

EricM at 00:48, 2 August 2024

2024-08-02T00:48:17Z

172.70.162.185: /* Issues with Math display / "fails to redtext" looked like "fails to become* redtext". Though my later workthrough has now given me a very good idea (if not exactly 'know') what is wrong, not updating the initial declaration. ;)

2024-07-31T10:03:36Z

‎Issues with Math display: "fails to redtext" looked like "fails *to become* redtext". Though my later workthrough has now given me a very good idea (if not exactly 'know') what is wrong, not updating the initial declaration. ;)

172.70.162.185: /* Issues with Math display */

2024-07-31T09:59:36Z

‎Issues with Math display

172.69.43.166: /* Issues with Math display */

2024-07-31T09:54:17Z

‎Issues with Math display

EricM: /* Issues with Math display */

2024-07-31T03:41:15Z

‎Issues with Math display

EricM: /* Issues with Math display */ new section

2024-07-31T03:31:02Z

‎Issues with Math display: new section

ISaveXKCDpapers: /* Change to explanation of substitution */

2024-06-11T14:39:45Z

‎Change to explanation of substitution

ISaveXKCDpapers: /* Change to explanation of substitution */ new section

2024-06-11T14:39:32Z

‎Change to explanation of substitution: new section

GcGYSF(asterisk)P(vertical line)e at 22:24, 4 May 2022

2022-05-04T22:24:00Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:59, 2 August 2024
Line 92:		Line 92:
	:So, anyway, yes something (system-deep) needs updating ''properly''. Or else get another system to render what we want and then upload ''that'' image to use here as an inline image. If I actually had an upload-enabled account then that's what I'd try myself, next. Or perhaps the solution (this side of the necessary server-priviliges) is access an existing version as a cross-server transcluded resource. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.166\|172.69.43.166]] 09:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)		:So, anyway, yes something (system-deep) needs updating ''properly''. Or else get another system to render what we want and then upload ''that'' image to use here as an inline image. If I actually had an upload-enabled account then that's what I'd try myself, next. Or perhaps the solution (this side of the necessary server-priviliges) is access an existing version as a cross-server transcluded resource. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.166\|172.69.43.166]] 09:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

−	:Agree with the above; it's likely that an unrelated update (OS/wiki) created the incompatibility. However, the status quo is also undesirable. If the cache were ever to be purged, all math expressions throughout the wiki would be broken. Failing to update is just going to push things toward [[https://xkcd.com/2224\|the abyss]]... [[User:EricM\|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM\|talk]]) 00:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)	+	:Agree with the above; it's likely that an unrelated update (OS/wiki) created the incompatibility. However, the status quo is also undesirable. If the cache were ever to be purged, all math expressions throughout the wiki would be broken. Failing to update is just going to push things toward [https://xkcd.com/2224\|the abyss]... [[User:EricM\|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM\|talk]]) 00:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:48, 2 August 2024
Line 91:		Line 91:
	:But then, I'm personally running software and OSes a full quarter of a century old (knowing how much 'risk' I'm taking... practically zero, given that it's not networked up) on hardware that's slightly older, ''plus'' have some of the very latest systems that have totally annoying new behaviours (how on earth can you make Notepad more difficult to use..? ...and my muscle-memory is now nearly useless when trying to use Win11's folder windows with long-used keyboard shortcuts that have worked pretty much since Windows3.0!), so perhaps I'm naturally more ambivalent against just updating everything at all times (never mind anything like CrowdStrike, which I thankfully dodged being affected by).		:But then, I'm personally running software and OSes a full quarter of a century old (knowing how much 'risk' I'm taking... practically zero, given that it's not networked up) on hardware that's slightly older, ''plus'' have some of the very latest systems that have totally annoying new behaviours (how on earth can you make Notepad more difficult to use..? ...and my muscle-memory is now nearly useless when trying to use Win11's folder windows with long-used keyboard shortcuts that have worked pretty much since Windows3.0!), so perhaps I'm naturally more ambivalent against just updating everything at all times (never mind anything like CrowdStrike, which I thankfully dodged being affected by).
	:So, anyway, yes something (system-deep) needs updating ''properly''. Or else get another system to render what we want and then upload ''that'' image to use here as an inline image. If I actually had an upload-enabled account then that's what I'd try myself, next. Or perhaps the solution (this side of the necessary server-priviliges) is access an existing version as a cross-server transcluded resource. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.166\|172.69.43.166]] 09:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)		:So, anyway, yes something (system-deep) needs updating ''properly''. Or else get another system to render what we want and then upload ''that'' image to use here as an inline image. If I actually had an upload-enabled account then that's what I'd try myself, next. Or perhaps the solution (this side of the necessary server-priviliges) is access an existing version as a cross-server transcluded resource. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.166\|172.69.43.166]] 09:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	:Agree with the above; it's likely that an unrelated update (OS/wiki) created the incompatibility. However, the status quo is also undesirable. If the cache were ever to be purged, all math expressions throughout the wiki would be broken. Failing to update is just going to push things toward [[https://xkcd.com/2224\|the abyss]]... [[User:EricM\|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM\|talk]]) 00:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

@@ Line 70: / Line 70: @@
 I will note that the installed version of Math per the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Version Special:Version] page is 7 years old... Yikes. [[User:EricM|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM|talk]]) 03:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
-:It's from [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2117:_Differentiation_and_Integration&diff=prev&oldid=344193 this point] that the math-markup went wrong (it was corrected, factually, but using unsupported markup). I don't have enough experience with MathML to know why the Substitution rewrite fails to redtext whilst the Cauchy markup (and others) does not, with substantially the same invoked formatting. Is it just an unbalanced paren or incorrect delimiter..? Visually, seems not, but the failover text seems to refer to errors in the layers of parsing module(s) beyond the edited source and thus not as explanatory or demonstrably obvious as to where the mishandling gets invoked.
+:It's from [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2117:_Differentiation_and_Integration&diff=prev&oldid=344193 this point] that the math-markup went wrong (it was corrected, factually, but using unsupported markup). I don't have enough experience with MathML to know why the Substitution rewrite fails and becomes redtext whilst the Cauchy markup (and others) does not, with substantially the same invoked formatting. Is it just an unbalanced paren or incorrect delimiter..? Visually, seems not, but the failover text seems to refer to errors in the layers of parsing module(s) beyond the edited source and thus not as explanatory or demonstrably obvious as to where the mishandling gets invoked.
 :From a purely eyeballed parsing, the markup grammar looks consistent, though. I mean, the difference between the <code><nowiki><math></nowiki></code> being immediately followed by the apparently more usual algebra of having a ''whitespace'' between it and the algebra seemed to be a possibility (an easy work-around, one perhaps imagining that the current library has a slight regex error when looking for initial components), but that doesn't really match the pattern of what does and doesn't (apparently) work.
 :So let's look at three things that don't and do render...

@@ Line 85: / Line 85: @@
   <math> \frac{du}{dx}.</math> '''fails''' (dot added to barebones, so it's not that)
   <math> d(f(u)) = f'(u) \frac{du}{dx} dx.</math> '''fails''' (dot added to full version)
-  <math> \frac{d^n}{da^n}f(a) = \frac{n!}{2\pi i} \oint_\gamma \frac{f(z)}{\left(z-a\right)^{n+1}}.</math> '''does not work''' (just an ending dot removed)
+  <math> \frac{d^n}{da^n}f(a) = \frac{n!}{2\pi i} \oint_\gamma \frac{f(z)}{\left(z-a\right)^{n+1}}.</math> '''does not work''' (just a trailing ending term removed)
 :...you know, this set of results (described as failed or working as I currently see them, in case this changes in the future) leads me to just one particular conclusion. The working Cauchy formula is cached from when the "TEX validator and converter" worked (and piped through the postcript/whatever rendered), meaning that this formula image isn't broken because it's remembered from when it was Ok.
 :Anything ''new'' we try, however, finds no cached result and fails because of an actual (failed) later update of the texvc. (Conceivably, the >7yo version of Math would be happily working, even today.) Note that there are many comments that Latex (if we use that) can be finicky, and getting ImageMagick binaries manually compiled properly (if that's the chosen renderer) has been known to be very difficult.

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:54, 31 July 2024
Line 69:		Line 69:

	I will note that the installed version of Math per the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Version Special:Version] page is 7 years old... Yikes. [[User:EricM\|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM\|talk]]) 03:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)		I will note that the installed version of Math per the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Version Special:Version] page is 7 years old... Yikes. [[User:EricM\|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM\|talk]]) 03:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	:It's from [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=2117:_Differentiation_and_Integration&diff=prev&oldid=344193 this point] that the math-markup went wrong (it was corrected, factually, but using unsupported markup). I don't have enough experience with MathML to know why the Substitution rewrite fails to redtext whilst the Cauchy markup (and others) does not, with substantially the same invoked formatting. Is it just an unbalanced paren or incorrect delimiter..? Visually, seems not, but the failover text seems to refer to errors in the layers of parsing module(s) beyond the edited source and thus not as explanatory or demonstrably obvious as to where the mishandling gets invoked.
		+	:From a purely eyeballed parsing, the markup grammar looks consistent, though. I mean, the difference between the <code><nowiki><math></nowiki></code> being immediately followed by the apparently more usual algebra of having a ''whitespace'' between it and the algebra seemed to be a possibility (an easy work-around, one perhaps imagining that the current library has a slight regex error when looking for initial components), but that doesn't really match the pattern of what does and doesn't (apparently) work.
		+	:So let's look at three things that don't and do render...
		+	<math> d(f(u)) = f'(u) \frac{du}{dx} dx </math> '''note: is mathtag-space-algebra, still does not work'''
		+	<math>f(u) = \int f'(u) \frac{du}{dx} dx</math>
		+	<math>\int f'(u) \frac{du}{dx} dx</math>
		+	:...and compare with one (more complicated) bit that clearly does work...
		+	<math> \frac{d^n}{da^n}f(a) = \frac{n!}{2\pi i} \oint_\gamma \frac{f(z)}{\left(z-a\right)^{n+1}}\, dz.</math>
		+	:Try sub-elements, first testing \frac usage
		+	<math> \frac{du}{dx} </math> '''fails'''
		+	<math> \frac{x}{y} </math> '''fails''' (so not du or dx at fault
		+	<math> \frac{d^n}{da^n}f(a) = \frac{n!}{2\pi i} \oint_\gamma \frac{f(z)}{\left(z-a\right)^{n+1}}\, dz.</math> '''works''' (as we know, taken from Cauchy)
		+	<math> \frac{d^n}{da^n}f(a) = \frac{n!}{2\pi i} \oint_\gamma \frac{f(z)}{\left(z-a\right)^{n+1}}\, dz</math> '''does not work''' (just an ending dot removed)
		+	<math> \frac{du}{dx}.</math> '''fails''' (dot added to barebones, so it's not that)
		+	<math> d(f(u)) = f'(u) \frac{du}{dx} dx.</math> '''fails''' (dot added to full version)
		+	<math> \frac{d^n}{da^n}f(a) = \frac{n!}{2\pi i} \oint_\gamma \frac{f(z)}{\left(z-a\right)^{n+1}}.</math> '''does not work''' (just an ending dot removed)
		+	:...you know, this set of results (described as failed or working as I currently see them, in case this changes in the future) leads me to just one particular conclusion. The working Cauchy formula is cached from when the "TEX validator and converter" worked (and piped through the postcript/whatever rendered), meaning that this formula image isn't broken because it's remembered from when it was Ok.
		+	:Anything ''new'' we try, however, finds no cached result and fails because of an actual (failed) later update of the texvc. (Conceivably, the >7yo version of Math would be happily working, even today.) Note that there are many comments that Latex (if we use that) can be finicky, and getting ImageMagick binaries manually compiled properly (if that's the chosen renderer) has been known to be very difficult.
		+	:One could say that it's more that it was actively broken, rather than fell into unupdayed obselesence. Yes, by not updating something, there may be further dependancies that later get invoked that fail/complain about the older element (perhaps for good reasons, or perhaps just for "I'm not going to test my product against anything older than <version X>, so I'll just make it failover to make it the end-user's problem") and stagnating software isn't exactly best practice, but I see no obvious signs that the vital (half-)updated library was actually necessary to patch anything as severe as a security exploit, probably just version-tweak that the lack of probably shouldn't have mattered too much unless a specific new feature (not being used here) was desired.
		+	:But then, I'm personally running software and OSes a full quarter of a century old (knowing how much 'risk' I'm taking... practically zero, given that it's not networked up) on hardware that's slightly older, ''plus'' have some of the very latest systems that have totally annoying new behaviours (how on earth can you make Notepad more difficult to use..? ...and my muscle-memory is now nearly useless when trying to use Win11's folder windows with long-used keyboard shortcuts that have worked pretty much since Windows3.0!), so perhaps I'm naturally more ambivalent against just updating everything at all times (never mind anything like CrowdStrike, which I thankfully dodged being affected by).
		+	:So, anyway, yes something (system-deep) needs updating ''properly''. Or else get another system to render what we want and then upload ''that'' image to use here as an inline image. If I actually had an upload-enabled account then that's what I'd try myself, next. Or perhaps the solution (this side of the necessary server-priviliges) is access an existing version as a cross-server transcluded resource. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.166\|172.69.43.166]] 09:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:41, 31 July 2024
Line 68:		Line 68:
	I'm not a CS student... but I do software engineering and web servers including MediaWiki. The issue is described here: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX/problems#Error_:_Failed_to_parse_(Missing_texvc_executable) Missing texvc executable error]		I'm not a CS student... but I do software engineering and web servers including MediaWiki. The issue is described here: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX/problems#Error_:_Failed_to_parse_(Missing_texvc_executable) Missing texvc executable error]

−	I will note that the installed version of Math per the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Version Special:Version] page is 7 years old... Yikes.	+	I will note that the installed version of Math per the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Version Special:Version] page is 7 years old... Yikes. [[User:EricM\|EricM]] ([[User talk:EricM\|talk]]) 03:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:31, 31 July 2024
Line 63:		Line 63:

	So the LaTeX on this wiki is apparently broken, meaning we can't change the math things without stuff screwing up. Unfortunately, there are a lot of alterations I'd like to make. Most are minor, like simplifying the power rule explanation, but more importantly, the explanation for integration by substitution is straight-up wrong. I'm going ahead with the change anyway, because hey, a broken explanation can't be any worse than a wrong explanation, right? I'm just gonna wait and hope that this gets fixed in the future. [[User:ISaveXKCDpapers\|ISaveXKCDpapers]] ([[User talk:ISaveXKCDpapers\|talk]]) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)		So the LaTeX on this wiki is apparently broken, meaning we can't change the math things without stuff screwing up. Unfortunately, there are a lot of alterations I'd like to make. Most are minor, like simplifying the power rule explanation, but more importantly, the explanation for integration by substitution is straight-up wrong. I'm going ahead with the change anyway, because hey, a broken explanation can't be any worse than a wrong explanation, right? I'm just gonna wait and hope that this gets fixed in the future. [[User:ISaveXKCDpapers\|ISaveXKCDpapers]] ([[User talk:ISaveXKCDpapers\|talk]]) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Issues with Math display ==
		+
		+	I'm not a CS student... but I do software engineering and web servers including MediaWiki. The issue is described here: [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX/problems#Error_:_Failed_to_parse_(Missing_texvc_executable) Missing texvc executable error]
		+
		+	I will note that the installed version of Math per the [https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Special:Version Special:Version] page is 7 years old... Yikes.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:39, 11 June 2024
Line 62:		Line 62:
	== Change to explanation of substitution ==		== Change to explanation of substitution ==

−	So the LaTeX on this wiki is apparently broken, meaning we can't change the math things without stuff screwing up. Unfortunately, there are a lot of alterations I'd like to make. Most are minor, like simplifying the power rule explanation, but more importantly, the explanation for integration by substitution is straight-up wrong. I'm going ahead with the change anyway, because hey, a broken explanation can't be any worse than a wrong explanation, right? I'm just gonna wait and hope that this gets fixed in the future.	+	So the LaTeX on this wiki is apparently broken, meaning we can't change the math things without stuff screwing up. Unfortunately, there are a lot of alterations I'd like to make. Most are minor, like simplifying the power rule explanation, but more importantly, the explanation for integration by substitution is straight-up wrong. I'm going ahead with the change anyway, because hey, a broken explanation can't be any worse than a wrong explanation, right? I'm just gonna wait and hope that this gets fixed in the future. [[User:ISaveXKCDpapers\|ISaveXKCDpapers]] ([[User talk:ISaveXKCDpapers\|talk]]) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:39, 11 June 2024
Line 59:		Line 59:
	== Purify the Power rule? ==		== Purify the Power rule? ==
	The derivative power rule shown is combined with the chain rule. I think it should be stated to be a pure power rule, without the chain rule components. When I tried making that adjustment, I got error messages that I could not resolve, so could someone who knows how the MATH feature works remove the chain rule from the power rule? [[User:Nutster\|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster\|talk]]) 18:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)		The derivative power rule shown is combined with the chain rule. I think it should be stated to be a pure power rule, without the chain rule components. When I tried making that adjustment, I got error messages that I could not resolve, so could someone who knows how the MATH feature works remove the chain rule from the power rule? [[User:Nutster\|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster\|talk]]) 18:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Change to explanation of substitution ==
		+
		+	So the LaTeX on this wiki is apparently broken, meaning we can't change the math things without stuff screwing up. Unfortunately, there are a lot of alterations I'd like to make. Most are minor, like simplifying the power rule explanation, but more importantly, the explanation for integration by substitution is straight-up wrong. I'm going ahead with the change anyway, because hey, a broken explanation can't be any worse than a wrong explanation, right? I'm just gonna wait and hope that this gets fixed in the future.

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:24, 4 May 2022
Line 32:		Line 32:
	Probably because he put a +C joke in 1201:_Integration_by_Parts. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.160\|108.162.219.160]] 13:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)		Probably because he put a +C joke in 1201:_Integration_by_Parts. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.160\|108.162.219.160]] 13:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

		+	Why is all the maths broken [[User:GcGYSF(asterisk)P(vertical line)e\|GcGYSF(asterisk)P(vertical line)e]] ([[User talk:GcGYSF(asterisk)P(vertical line)e\|talk]]) 22:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
	== Risch algorithm ==		== Risch algorithm ==

Talk:2117: Differentiation and Integration - Revision history

EricM at 00:59, 2 August 2024

EricM at 00:48, 2 August 2024

172.70.162.185: /* Issues with Math display */ "fails to redtext" looked like "fails *to become* redtext". Though my later workthrough has now given me a very good idea (if not exactly 'know') what is wrong, not updating the initial declaration. ;)

172.70.162.185: /* Issues with Math display */

172.69.43.166: /* Issues with Math display */

EricM: /* Issues with Math display */

EricM: /* Issues with Math display */ new section

ISaveXKCDpapers: /* Change to explanation of substitution */

ISaveXKCDpapers: /* Change to explanation of substitution */ new section

GcGYSF(asterisk)P(vertical line)e at 22:24, 4 May 2022

172.70.162.185: /* Issues with Math display / "fails to redtext" looked like "fails to become* redtext". Though my later workthrough has now given me a very good idea (if not exactly 'know') what is wrong, not updating the initial declaration. ;)