Talk:2149: Alternate Histories - Revision history

172.70.163.49 at 01:53, 19 April 2024

2024-04-19T01:53:32Z

162.158.154.135 at 00:06, 19 April 2024

2024-04-19T00:06:13Z

172.70.131.170: Webcomic example of nested alternate realities

2022-08-29T11:22:46Z

Webcomic example of nested alternate realities

These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For at 00:38, 20 May 2019

2019-05-20T00:38:15Z

162.158.62.195: Response to comment

2019-05-17T22:38:39Z

Response to comment

Kynde: signing IP

2019-05-16T13:57:30Z

signing IP

Kynde at 13:52, 16 May 2019

2019-05-16T13:52:40Z

Kynde: Please keep the order of the discussion. Do not write your comment at the top. Have reorderd the entire discussion so the first post it at the top and the others not answering a post comes in the direction of their post stamp. Also adding signature

2019-05-16T13:52:07Z

Please keep the order of the discussion. Do not write your comment at the top. Have reorderd the entire discussion so the first post it at the top and the others not answering a post comes in the direction of their post stamp. Also adding signature

Kynde: remove sections which should be avoided

2019-05-16T13:41:30Z

remove sections which should be avoided

172.69.33.221 at 21:16, 14 May 2019

2019-05-14T21:16:17Z

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 Let's assume that any given alternate history has a 1% chance of being detailed enough to consider the alternate history's alt-history, and (for simplicity's sake) that no alternate histories develop in such a way as to eliminate interest in alternate histories. Given these assumptions, reaching the 500th level would require...um, my calculator isn't giving me an answer, let's just say a LOT of top-level alternate histories where the Nazis won WW2 to get anything that reached that deep. Even if each alt-history had coinflip odds of reaching the next level, you'd still need something like 3.3e150 alternate histories to get that deep; even 90% odds need 7.5e22 alt-histories. This sort of infinite regression is only practical if some aspect of an alternate history makes it and its descendants more likely to generate further alt-histories. At this point, evolution would kick in and before you got more than a dozen levels deep nearly all alt-histories would be from well-adapted alt-histories. It seems likely to me that alt-histories with lots of little details and weird contrivances would be more likely to spawn alt-histories, so this comic seems pretty accurate in that regard. [[User:GreatWyrmGold|GreatWyrmGold]] ([[User talk:GreatWyrmGold|talk]]) 16:56, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
-I think you're calculating that wrong. If there are 10 alternate histories now, each of those ten has ten in-universe alternate histories, etc, so there are 10^500 alternate histories we are trawling through at that depth. More than that, each step is not a minor change from actual reality, but 500 //successive// changes from actual reality, in each of those 10^500 alternatives. And at each level, nothing says the change is based on the reality //of that fiction//. So, if three levels deep in just one branch, alternate Harry Turtledove writes Guns of The Nazis, all 10^497 terminal branches beneath that are 497 steps more crazy than time travel. That, uh, is a lot of opportunities to stumble across wacky stuff, and "Laura Ingalls Wilder is god-emperor of Missouri because of pajamas" is not surprisingly wild, it's surprisingly tame.
+:I think you're calculating that wrong. If there are 10 alternate histories now, each of those ten has ten in-universe alternate histories, etc, so there are 10^500 alternate histories we are trawling through at that depth. More than that, each step is not a minor change from actual reality, but 500 //successive// changes from actual reality, in each of those 10^500 alternatives. And at each level, nothing says the change is based on the reality //of that fiction//. So, if three levels deep in just one branch, alternate Harry Turtledove writes Guns of The Nazis, all 10^497 terminal branches beneath that are 497 steps more crazy than time travel. That, uh, is a lot of opportunities to stumble across wacky stuff, and "Laura Ingalls Wilder is god-emperor of Missouri because of pajamas" is not surprisingly wild, it's surprisingly tame. {{unsigned ip|162.158.154.135|00:06, 19 April 2024}}
 Does anyone think some of this might be a shot at the Kaiserreich/story inside kaiserreich/so on thing? {{unsigned ip|172.69.68.129}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:06, 19 April 2024
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	Let's assume that any given alternate history has a 1% chance of being detailed enough to consider the alternate history's alt-history, and (for simplicity's sake) that no alternate histories develop in such a way as to eliminate interest in alternate histories. Given these assumptions, reaching the 500th level would require...um, my calculator isn't giving me an answer, let's just say a LOT of top-level alternate histories where the Nazis won WW2 to get anything that reached that deep. Even if each alt-history had coinflip odds of reaching the next level, you'd still need something like 3.3e150 alternate histories to get that deep; even 90% odds need 7.5e22 alt-histories. This sort of infinite regression is only practical if some aspect of an alternate history makes it and its descendants more likely to generate further alt-histories. At this point, evolution would kick in and before you got more than a dozen levels deep nearly all alt-histories would be from well-adapted alt-histories. It seems likely to me that alt-histories with lots of little details and weird contrivances would be more likely to spawn alt-histories, so this comic seems pretty accurate in that regard. [[User:GreatWyrmGold\|GreatWyrmGold]] ([[User talk:GreatWyrmGold\|talk]]) 16:56, 14 May 2019 (UTC)		Let's assume that any given alternate history has a 1% chance of being detailed enough to consider the alternate history's alt-history, and (for simplicity's sake) that no alternate histories develop in such a way as to eliminate interest in alternate histories. Given these assumptions, reaching the 500th level would require...um, my calculator isn't giving me an answer, let's just say a LOT of top-level alternate histories where the Nazis won WW2 to get anything that reached that deep. Even if each alt-history had coinflip odds of reaching the next level, you'd still need something like 3.3e150 alternate histories to get that deep; even 90% odds need 7.5e22 alt-histories. This sort of infinite regression is only practical if some aspect of an alternate history makes it and its descendants more likely to generate further alt-histories. At this point, evolution would kick in and before you got more than a dozen levels deep nearly all alt-histories would be from well-adapted alt-histories. It seems likely to me that alt-histories with lots of little details and weird contrivances would be more likely to spawn alt-histories, so this comic seems pretty accurate in that regard. [[User:GreatWyrmGold\|GreatWyrmGold]] ([[User talk:GreatWyrmGold\|talk]]) 16:56, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	I think you're calculating that wrong. If there are 10 alternate histories now, each of those ten has ten in-universe alternate histories, etc, so there are 10^500 alternate histories we are trawling through at that depth. More than that, each step is not a minor change from actual reality, but 500 //successive// changes from actual reality, in each of those 10^500 alternatives. And at each level, nothing says the change is based on the reality //of that fiction//. So, if three levels deep in just one branch, alternate Harry Turtledove writes Guns of The Nazis, all 10^497 terminal branches beneath that are 497 steps more crazy than time travel. That, uh, is a lot of opportunities to stumble across wacky stuff, and "Laura Ingalls Wilder is god-emperor of Missouri because of pajamas" is not surprisingly wild, it's surprisingly tame.

	Does anyone think some of this might be a shot at the Kaiserreich/story inside kaiserreich/so on thing? {{unsigned ip\|172.69.68.129}}		Does anyone think some of this might be a shot at the Kaiserreich/story inside kaiserreich/so on thing? {{unsigned ip\|172.69.68.129}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:22, 29 August 2022
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	I'm surprised that a 500th iteration alternate history would have ANY names, events or institutions familiar to us. [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 00:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)		I'm surprised that a 500th iteration alternate history would have ANY names, events or institutions familiar to us. [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 00:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	This comic seems to be an excellent illustration of nested alternate realities if you follow all the links.
		+	https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0050.html [[Special:Contributions/172.70.131.170\|172.70.131.170]] 11:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:38, 20 May 2019
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	:True, though you only need 100 alternate histories in each history. Until you hit the alternate history where the war with Italy causes us to stop using the roman alphabet, you're likely to get at least that many in each setting. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.195\|162.158.62.195]] 22:38, 17 May 2019 (UTC)		:True, though you only need 100 alternate histories in each history. Until you hit the alternate history where the war with Italy causes us to stop using the roman alphabet, you're likely to get at least that many in each setting. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.195\|162.158.62.195]] 22:38, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	I'm surprised that a 500th iteration alternate history would have ANY names, events or institutions familiar to us. [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 00:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:38, 17 May 2019
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	This is actually a thing with the Hearts of Iron IV mod, Kaiserreich. It's an alt-history mod where Germany won WWI, and within it there's an event describing a variant where Germany lost WWI, but instead of the Nazis the nat-pop party which takes over are known as Volkists. This was then made into a mod, which has within it an event describing a scenario where Germany lost WWI... [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.221\|172.69.33.221]] 21:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)		This is actually a thing with the Hearts of Iron IV mod, Kaiserreich. It's an alt-history mod where Germany won WWI, and within it there's an event describing a variant where Germany lost WWI, but instead of the Nazis the nat-pop party which takes over are known as Volkists. This was then made into a mod, which has within it an event describing a scenario where Germany lost WWI... [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.221\|172.69.33.221]] 21:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	:True, though you only need 100 alternate histories in each history. Until you hit the alternate history where the war with Italy causes us to stop using the roman alphabet, you're likely to get at least that many in each setting. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.195\|162.158.62.195]] 22:38, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

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 The hands on the 500 deep versions are quite different. Does anyone have an idea of what that might refer to? {{unsigned|The quiet one}}
 :I thought they were big bangly bracelets. [[User:Yomikoma|Yomikoma]] ([[User talk:Yomikoma|talk]]) 19:54, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
-:I think they are puffy shirt sleeve cuffs: [http://effortlessgent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/seinfield-660x474.jpg] [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 22:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
+::I think they are puffy shirt sleeve cuffs: [http://effortlessgent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/seinfield-660x474.jpg] [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 22:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
-: Let's compromise and say "big circle shapes on their arm connectors."
+:::Let's compromise and say "big circle shapes on their arm connectors." {{unsigned ip|172.68.54.118}}
-::The hands changed because history changed. DUH! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.214.100|162.158.214.100]] 12:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
+::::The hands changed because history changed. DUH! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.214.100|162.158.214.100]] 12:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 In *my* alternate history, Al Gore loses the presidency, but it is to Bill Nye. As a result, Bill Nye causes sweeping educational reform. However, this causes the U.S. to buckle in comparison to the world economy, as the lowered military power (about a 3% decrease by the end of his presidency in comparison to the "true" timeline) means that Indonesia is able to push their limits a little, leading to Kuwait, West Timor and Luxembourg doing the same. Also, because of the lack of a Haliburton loophole, the Everglades are larger than today. Unfortunately, when David Tenant tried out for the role of the Doctor, this results in a live alligator attacking him. This throws the show biz industry into a tailspin, and so... - SD [[Special:Contributions/162.158.78.196|162.158.78.196]] 19:54, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 :''Un''fortunately? ... I think we disagree on our choice of practitioner.  ] ; > [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 23:36, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
-::Something of the meme must have leaked through the æther, one way or another. Just yesterday I was involved in intensive discussions about how world history would have turned out with a different power-structure had the Darien Scheme not gone totally wrong, Scotland had cornered the Pacific/Atlantic trading markets, had been in a position to accept ''England'', et al, into ''its'' parliamentary structure in a differing version of the Union, and created a particularly caledonially-influenced New World and Scottish Empire (provisionally titled the 'gaelosphere') from where the future (or at least contermperaneously alternate) history of the world developed out of.  There was no mention of hovercraft, admitedly, but I now imagine they'd have been terribly useful upon certain parts of the isthmus, or particularly in dealing with the treacherous tides running through Caledonia Bay by Fort St Andrew. So, GOOMHR! If it's not we who should get out of his, of course [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.119|162.158.158.119]] 22:44, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
+Something of the meme must have leaked through the æther, one way or another. Just yesterday I was involved in intensive discussions about how world history would have turned out with a different power-structure had the Darien Scheme not gone totally wrong, Scotland had cornered the Pacific/Atlantic trading markets, had been in a position to accept ''England'', et al, into ''its'' parliamentary structure in a differing version of the Union, and created a particularly caledonially-influenced New World and Scottish Empire (provisionally titled the 'gaelosphere') from where the future (or at least contermperaneously alternate) history of the world developed out of.  There was no mention of hovercraft, admitedly, but I now imagine they'd have been terribly useful upon certain parts of the isthmus, or particularly in dealing with the treacherous tides running through Caledonia Bay by Fort St Andrew. So, GOOMHR! If it's not we who should get out of his, of course [[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.119|162.158.158.119]] 22:44, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 ;Hat

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 <!--Please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't delete this text. New comments should be added at the bottom.-->
 ;Hands
 The hands on the 500 deep versions are quite different. Does anyone have an idea of what that might refer to? {{unsigned|The quiet one}}

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 <!--Please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't delete this text. New comments should be added at the bottom.-->
 ;Hands
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 :I think they are puffy shirt sleeve cuffs: [http://effortlessgent.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/seinfield-660x474.jpg] [[User:ProphetZarquon|ProphetZarquon]] ([[User talk:ProphetZarquon|talk]]) 22:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 : Let's compromise and say "big circle shapes on their arm connectors."
-The hands changed because history changed. DUH! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.214.100|162.158.214.100]] 12:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
+::The hands changed because history changed. DUH! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.214.100|162.158.214.100]] 12:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 ;Hat
 Is there a name for the hats Cueball and Megan are wearing, or is it just a top hat that Randall added a ball to to make it look different? [[User:Herobrine|Herobrine]] ([[User talk:Herobrine|talk]]) 22:35, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 :I imagine the Nth-Alternate Universe version of the page https://theoutline.com/post/868/why-do-we-all-have-pom-pom-balls-on-our-hats might mention them. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.155.86|162.158.155.86]] 22:51, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
-There has never been a hat that wasn't ridiculous.[[Special:Contributions/172.68.65.210|172.68.65.210]] 23:38, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
+::There has never been a hat that wasn't ridiculous.[[Special:Contributions/172.68.65.210|172.68.65.210]] 23:38, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
-EVERYONE looks better wearing a hat. DUH! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.214.100|162.158.214.100]] 12:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
+:::EVERYONE looks better wearing a hat. DUH! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.214.100|162.158.214.100]] 12:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 ;Created by <nowiki>[thing]</nowiki>
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 ;Plausibility of scenario
 I have a few issues with the current explanation saying it is impossible for such a scenario to arise, though I'm not sure how exactly to restructure it. First, past events can be altered as an explanation for alterations to the timeline, demonstrated clearly in-comic ("the pajama craze never caught on" explains the future of "truman becomes god-emperor"). So, things could be changed before the world war, and thus anything is theoretically possible. Second, it's clear the humor and understanding of the comic doesn't require a judgement of how likely the scenario is. So that section of the explanation is at best unnecessary and at worst wrong, I think. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.189.31|172.68.189.31]] 09:13, 14 May 2019 (UTC)