Talk:2259: Networking Problems - Revision history

Nitpicking: So none of you are philosophers?

2023-09-10T22:01:42Z

So none of you are philosophers?

162.158.187.229 at 20:13, 7 May 2020

2020-05-07T20:13:45Z

172.69.62.28: just adding a funny comment

2020-02-07T15:47:14Z

just adding a funny comment

Aaron Rotenberg: More insanity.

2020-01-27T20:32:32Z

More insanity.

Barmar at 19:29, 27 January 2020

2020-01-27T19:29:29Z

141.101.69.79 at 18:13, 27 January 2020

2020-01-27T18:13:30Z

Vfp15: Humming Bird Project

2020-01-27T14:29:04Z

Humming Bird Project

Ianrbibtitlht at 13:25, 27 January 2020

2020-01-27T13:25:21Z

162.158.154.91 at 13:07, 27 January 2020

2020-01-27T13:07:47Z

162.158.23.109 at 09:10, 27 January 2020

2020-01-27T09:10:21Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:01, 10 September 2023
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	i placed an edit with improper capitalization referring to the ghosts. no-one altered it. "edited mercilessly"		i placed an edit with improper capitalization referring to the ghosts. no-one altered it. "edited mercilessly"
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		+	'''The Ghost in the Machine''' is a reference to philosopher Gerarld Ryle's phrase and Arthur Koestler's book of that name. It describes the presence of the soul in the "machine" of a human body (which both Ryle and Kestler deny), and has nothing to do with AI. [[User:Nitpicking\|Nitpicking]] ([[User talk:Nitpicking\|talk]]) 22:01, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:13, 7 May 2020
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	I was having some bad problems with my wifi a little while back. Would be super slow randomly. I taped a piece of alumium foil to the wall behind my computer and it fixed it. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.28\|172.69.62.28]] 15:47, 7 February 2020 (UTC)		I was having some bad problems with my wifi a little while back. Would be super slow randomly. I taped a piece of alumium foil to the wall behind my computer and it fixed it. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.28\|172.69.62.28]] 15:47, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
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		+	i placed an edit with improper capitalization referring to the ghosts. no-one altered it. "edited mercilessly"

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:47, 7 February 2020
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	:::Same here, and also after reading your replies - i still don't really get my head around the intended axis. But thankfully i am not alone ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.79\|141.101.69.79]] 18:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)		:::Same here, and also after reading your replies - i still don't really get my head around the intended axis. But thankfully i am not alone ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.79\|141.101.69.79]] 18:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
	::::It really should have been done as a bar chart. The measurement is how much your brain stops working. There would then be bars for different types of problems. [[User:Barmar\|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar\|talk]]) 19:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)		::::It really should have been done as a bar chart. The measurement is how much your brain stops working. There would then be bars for different types of problems. [[User:Barmar\|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar\|talk]]) 19:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	I was having some bad problems with my wifi a little while back. Would be super slow randomly. I taped a piece of alumium foil to the wall behind my computer and it fixed it. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.62.28\|172.69.62.28]] 15:47, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:32, 27 January 2020
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	:Sounds like the explorer is able to create some sort of cache that the transfer is able to use but not create. -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 00:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC)		:Sounds like the explorer is able to create some sort of cache that the transfer is able to use but not create. -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 00:36, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	::I forgot to mention the part where this turned out to be filename dependent. I determined that the trick always worked if the filename on the destination network drive was <code>test.stuff</code>, but most other filenames didn't work. So I had to start a copy operation to <code>/mnt/xdrive/test.stuff</code>, refresh <code>/mnt/xdrive</code> in the GUI explorer so that the speed would jump up, wait for the copy to finish, then rename the file inside <code>/mnt/xdrive</code> to the name I actually wanted. [[User:Aaron Rotenberg\|Aaron Rotenberg]] ([[User talk:Aaron Rotenberg\|talk]]) 20:32, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

	:The original <code>smbclient</code> implementation turned out to be virtually impossible, so the programmers gave up and used <code>import_ai()</code>. Unfortunately they then used <code>ai_solve(network.problems,0,0)</code> to set the maliciousness and capriciousness variables to zero, but a combination of off-by-one and roll-over errors mean that these two variables are maximized. True story. [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 09:39, 25 January 2020 (UTC)		:The original <code>smbclient</code> implementation turned out to be virtually impossible, so the programmers gave up and used <code>import_ai()</code>. Unfortunately they then used <code>ai_solve(network.problems,0,0)</code> to set the maliciousness and capriciousness variables to zero, but a combination of off-by-one and roll-over errors mean that these two variables are maximized. True story. [[User:Cosmogoblin\|Cosmogoblin]] ([[User talk:Cosmogoblin\|talk]]) 09:39, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:29, 27 January 2020
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	::Ah yes, I get it now, it's another example of Randall's ambiguous wording (after [https://www.explainxkcd.com/2258 someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot]). I initially read it as "(how much debugging them) (makes your brain stop working)", whereas Randall probably meant "(how much) (debugging them makes your brain stop working)".[[Special:Contributions/162.158.154.91\|162.158.154.91]] 13:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)		::Ah yes, I get it now, it's another example of Randall's ambiguous wording (after [https://www.explainxkcd.com/2258 someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot]). I initially read it as "(how much debugging them) (makes your brain stop working)", whereas Randall probably meant "(how much) (debugging them makes your brain stop working)".[[Special:Contributions/162.158.154.91\|162.158.154.91]] 13:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
	:::Same here, and also after reading your replies - i still don't really get my head around the intended axis. But thankfully i am not alone ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.79\|141.101.69.79]] 18:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)		:::Same here, and also after reading your replies - i still don't really get my head around the intended axis. But thankfully i am not alone ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.79\|141.101.69.79]] 18:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
		+	::::It really should have been done as a bar chart. The measurement is how much your brain stops working. There would then be bars for different types of problems. [[User:Barmar\|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar\|talk]]) 19:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:13, 27 January 2020
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	: It's not a measure of "how much debugging" causes your brain to stop working, but instead is a measure of "how much your brain stops working" when debugging them. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht\|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht\|talk]]) 14:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)		: It's not a measure of "how much debugging" causes your brain to stop working, but instead is a measure of "how much your brain stops working" when debugging them. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht\|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht\|talk]]) 14:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
	::Ah yes, I get it now, it's another example of Randall's ambiguous wording (after [https://www.explainxkcd.com/2258 someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot]). I initially read it as "(how much debugging them) (makes your brain stop working)", whereas Randall probably meant "(how much) (debugging them makes your brain stop working)".[[Special:Contributions/162.158.154.91\|162.158.154.91]] 13:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)		::Ah yes, I get it now, it's another example of Randall's ambiguous wording (after [https://www.explainxkcd.com/2258 someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot]). I initially read it as "(how much debugging them) (makes your brain stop working)", whereas Randall probably meant "(how much) (debugging them makes your brain stop working)".[[Special:Contributions/162.158.154.91\|162.158.154.91]] 13:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
		+	:::Same here, and also after reading your replies - i still don't really get my head around the intended axis. But thankfully i am not alone ;) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.79\|141.101.69.79]] 18:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

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	: I'm legally required to link [http://catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html The Story Of Mel] and [http://catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html A story about 'magic'] [[User:Blacksilver\|Blacksilver]] ([[User talk:Blacksilver\|talk]]) 12:28, 25 January 2020 (UTC)		: I'm legally required to link [http://catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html The Story Of Mel] and [http://catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html A story about 'magic'] [[User:Blacksilver\|Blacksilver]] ([[User talk:Blacksilver\|talk]]) 12:28, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	: The effect of travel time over media is central to the plot in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hummingbird_Project The Humming Bird Project]. It's also a key factor in high frequency trading, as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=d8BcCLLX4N4&feature=emb_logo Tom Scott explains in his video].[[User:Vfp15\|Vfp15]] ([[User talk:Vfp15\|talk]]) 14:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

	While I don't believe that ghosts have power over computers, I do believe that many of the seemingly random "hiccups" in my computer programs are caused by sunspots. [[User:Rtanenbaum\|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum\|talk]]) 22:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)		While I don't believe that ghosts have power over computers, I do believe that many of the seemingly random "hiccups" in my computer programs are caused by sunspots. [[User:Rtanenbaum\|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum\|talk]]) 22:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 36: / Line 36: @@
 Strictly speaking, I don't think lag is about how long transmission of a packet takes, which is instead referred to as {{w|network delay}}.  Furthermore, from the referenced Wikipedia page, network delay is experienced in each "hop" of the data packet from node to node and includes the following delays: processing delay (time to process the packet header), queuing delay (time packet spends in routing queue), transmission delay (time to push the packet onto the link), and propagation delay (time to travel to destination based on the speed of the link). IMHO, a laggy network connection is one where the network delay is longer than normal due to a temporary problem in one or more of these areas.  A connection that is always slow because of low link bandwidth is not laggy, it's just slow.  Others may disagree with me. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 03:02, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 : Lag is an application-layer concept (being the time from a user doing something to trigger an action to when the effects of that action start to be observed). The network-layer equivalent is ''latency'' and it is one of the fundamental limits on what you can do with remote resources (and the one that is very hard to do anything about, unlike bandwidth where you can just get more by spending money). --[[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.53|141.101.99.53]] 02:01, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 Hi. Isn't Randall using the scale in the wrong direction? I mean "normal problems" make your brain stop working if you debug them "none" to "some" while "Networking problems" only make your brain stop working if you debug them "a lot". If I am wrong. In what way should I read the axis? thx [[User:OK-Randall|OK-Randall]] ([[User talk:OK-Randall|talk]]) 09:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 : It's not a measure of "how much debugging" causes your brain to stop working, but instead is a measure of "how much your brain stops working" when debugging them. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 14:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 ::Ah yes, I get it now, it's another example of Randall's ambiguous wording (after [https://www.explainxkcd.com/2258 someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot]). I initially read it as "(how much debugging them) (makes your brain stop working)", whereas Randall probably meant "(how much) (debugging them makes your brain stop working)".[[Special:Contributions/162.158.154.91|162.158.154.91]] 13:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:07, 27 January 2020
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	Hi. Isn't Randall using the scale in the wrong direction? I mean "normal problems" make your brain stop working if you debug them "none" to "some" while "Networking problems" only make your brain stop working if you debug them "a lot". If I am wrong. In what way should I read the axis? thx [[User:OK-Randall\|OK-Randall]] ([[User talk:OK-Randall\|talk]]) 09:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)		Hi. Isn't Randall using the scale in the wrong direction? I mean "normal problems" make your brain stop working if you debug them "none" to "some" while "Networking problems" only make your brain stop working if you debug them "a lot". If I am wrong. In what way should I read the axis? thx [[User:OK-Randall\|OK-Randall]] ([[User talk:OK-Randall\|talk]]) 09:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
	: It's not a measure of "how much debugging" causes your brain to stop working, but instead is a measure of "how much your brain stops working" when debugging them. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht\|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht\|talk]]) 14:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)		: It's not a measure of "how much debugging" causes your brain to stop working, but instead is a measure of "how much your brain stops working" when debugging them. [[User:Ianrbibtitlht\|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht\|talk]]) 14:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
		+	::Ah yes, I get it now, it's another example of Randall's ambiguous wording (after [https://www.explainxkcd.com/2258 someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot]). I initially read it as "(how much debugging them) (makes your brain stop working)", whereas Randall probably meant "(how much) (debugging them makes your brain stop working)".[[Special:Contributions/162.158.154.91\|162.158.154.91]] 13:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

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 :Nothing I can think of you'd ever do in a production setup on purpose, but with some really crazy port-channel settings, with the right kind of tiny packets like a SYN, and a downstream bridge or repeater to add in some intentional delay, I think you could. Never underestimate the power of a sufficiently motivated netadmin. [[User:DevAudio|DevAudio]] ([[User talk:DevAudio|talk]]) 22:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
-:Theoretically, yes. But it would require some malicious/stupid/buggy configuration. For example, some stupid packet scheduler on a misconfigured bonded link or having two same-metric routes to some destination that are not equal in fact. It may not even be an error in any ''local'' configuration, but a collective effect of multiple sub-optimal configurations or just a lack of knowledge of the whole picture of the network. In essence, if there are multiple connections leading to some destination, someone may want to utilize them all to 'sum' the bandwidth of them. A network device would then 'share' traffic between those multiple (in Cueball's case: two) connections, mostly sending every N-th packet on any particular connection. Normally there won't be ideal division of packets to links unless there are some pathological conditions. If one of these connections is actually slower than the other, this could generate the effect seen by Cueball. The network administrator may not be aware of the asymmetry - the links connected directly to his device may be in fact identical, but the slowness can be induced somewhere along the path by a device not under his control. Similarly, Cueball, even if very competent, may not be aware that some device not under his control along the path uses such configuration and causes unintentional delays in (mostly) every other packet. -- [[Special:Contributions/162.158.23.109|162.158.23.109]] 09:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
+:Theoretically, yes. But it would require some malicious/stupid/buggy configuration. For example, some stupid packet scheduler on a misconfigured bonded link or having two same-metric routes to some destination that are not equal in fact. It may not even be an error in any ''local'' configuration, but a collective effect of multiple sub-optimal configurations or just a lack of knowledge of the whole picture of the network. In essence, if there are multiple connections leading to some destination, someone may want to utilize them all to 'sum' the bandwidth of them. A network device would then 'share' traffic between those multiple (in Cueball's case: two) connections, mostly sending every N-th packet on any particular connection. Normally there won't be ideal division of packets to connections unless there are some pathological conditions. If one of these connections is actually slower than the others, this could generate the effect seen by Cueball. The network administrator may not be aware of the asymmetry - the links connected directly to his device may be in fact identical, but the slowness can be induced somewhere along the path by a device not under his control. Similarly, Cueball, even if very competent, may not be aware that some device not under his control along the path uses such configuration and causes unintentional delays in (mostly) every other packet. -- [[Special:Contributions/162.158.23.109|162.158.23.109]] 09:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 The classic 500-mile bug: "We can't send mail more than 500 miles" http://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles