Talk:2390: Linguists - Revision history

Cwallenpoole at 17:48, 5 August 2021

2021-08-05T17:48:27Z

Cwallenpoole at 13:43, 30 November 2020

2020-11-30T13:43:15Z

Cwallenpoole at 13:42, 30 November 2020

2020-11-30T13:42:40Z

Cwallenpoole at 13:42, 30 November 2020

2020-11-30T13:42:03Z

162.158.106.36 at 08:27, 30 November 2020

2020-11-30T08:27:40Z

162.158.75.49 at 17:04, 27 November 2020

2020-11-27T17:04:46Z

162.158.74.219 at 13:41, 27 November 2020

2020-11-27T13:41:15Z

173.245.52.193 at 06:12, 27 November 2020

2020-11-27T06:12:59Z

108.162.216.35 at 19:50, 26 November 2020

2020-11-26T19:50:43Z

162.158.159.128 at 15:09, 26 November 2020

2020-11-26T15:09:09Z

@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 I guess you could fall "in" a hole without falling "down" a hole if you like...tripped into a sideways hole, like a doorway...
 [[Special:Contributions/162.158.75.138|162.158.75.138]] 07:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 I'd say if you mean the act of falling into the hole, you can indicate that with either 'into' or 'down' (or even both) and you could argue when to use which, but if you mean the place where you have fallen, you would use 'in'. Informally, I have heard people use 'in' as short of 'into'. On the other hand, the place where you have fallen could be "down a hole" (I have been down that hole). It now depends whether the "down" is connected to "I fell" or to "the hole". In theory, you could say "I fell down a hole down the hole" to indicate you fell down a second hole while being inside the first one.

@@ Line 17: / Line 17: @@
 ::[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.35|108.162.216.35]] 19:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
-:: Personally, I view "I fell down a hole" to mean, that at the end of the action I was entirely, physically in the hole. Meanwhile, "I fell in a hole" can mean that any amount of the person may or may not be in the hole after the action. In this case, "in" almost means, "because of". For example, "I fell in an open manhole" can mean that the person fell but caught themselves (yes, singular "they.") before sliding all the way in or even fell all the way in but caught themselves before reaching bottom. Meanwhile, "I fell down a manhole" would involve the person arriving at the bottom or very near to. That said, by referencing the surface, "manhole" makes the entire thing problematic. Saying "I fell in a mine" and "I fell down a mine" both make sense, but saying "I fell down a septic tank" doesn't... This is exceedingly complicated. [[User:Cwallenpoole|Cwallenpoole]] ([[User talk:Cwallenpoole|talk]]) 13:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
+: Personally, I view "I fell down a hole" to mean, that at the end of the action I was entirely, physically in the hole. Meanwhile, "I fell in a hole" can mean that any amount of the person may or may not be in the hole after the action. In this case, "in" almost means, "because of". For example, "I fell in an open manhole" can mean that the person fell but caught themselves (yes, singular "they.") before sliding all the way in or even fell all the way in but caught themselves before reaching bottom. Meanwhile, "I fell down a manhole" would involve the person arriving at the bottom or very near to. That said, by referencing the surface, "manhole" makes the entire thing problematic. Saying "I fell in a mine" and "I fell down a mine" both make sense, but saying "I fell down a septic tank" doesn't... This is exceedingly complicated. [[User:Cwallenpoole|Cwallenpoole]] ([[User talk:Cwallenpoole|talk]]) 13:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 Did anyone else notice that this comic seems to have significantly higher resolution than others? It’s especially noticeable on mobile browsers, but I haven’t tested it on PC. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.154|108.162.219.154]] 02:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 17: / Line 17: @@
 ::[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.35|108.162.216.35]] 19:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
-:: Personally, I view "I fell down a hole" to mean, that at the end of the action I was entirely, physically in the hole. Meanwhile, "I fell in a hole" can mean that any amount of the person may or may not be in the hole after the action. In this case, "in" almost means, "because of". For example, "I fell in an open manhole" can mean that the person fell but caught themselves (yes, singular "they.") before sliding all the way in or even fell all the way in but caught themselves before reaching bottom. Meanwhile, "I fell down a manhole" would involve the person arriving at the bottom or very near to. That said, by referencing the surface, "manhole" makes the entire thing problematic. Saying "I fell in a mine" and "I fell down a mine" both make sense, but saying "I fell down a septic tank" doesn't... This is exceedingly complicated.
+:: Personally, I view "I fell down a hole" to mean, that at the end of the action I was entirely, physically in the hole. Meanwhile, "I fell in a hole" can mean that any amount of the person may or may not be in the hole after the action. In this case, "in" almost means, "because of". For example, "I fell in an open manhole" can mean that the person fell but caught themselves (yes, singular "they.") before sliding all the way in or even fell all the way in but caught themselves before reaching bottom. Meanwhile, "I fell down a manhole" would involve the person arriving at the bottom or very near to. That said, by referencing the surface, "manhole" makes the entire thing problematic. Saying "I fell in a mine" and "I fell down a mine" both make sense, but saying "I fell down a septic tank" doesn't... This is exceedingly complicated. [[User:Cwallenpoole|Cwallenpoole]] ([[User talk:Cwallenpoole|talk]]) 13:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 Did anyone else notice that this comic seems to have significantly higher resolution than others? It’s especially noticeable on mobile browsers, but I haven’t tested it on PC. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.154|108.162.219.154]] 02:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 16: / Line 16: @@
 ::Whereas "Fell Down a hole"  implies that the lowest point of your body, when you STARTED falling,  has actually experienced significant downward motion by the time you STOPPED falling.  you can't fall 'down' a hole if your foot was resting on the hole's bottom when you started out.
 ::[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.35|108.162.216.35]] 19:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
-−
 Did anyone else notice that this comic seems to have significantly higher resolution than others? It’s especially noticeable on mobile browsers, but I haven’t tested it on PC. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.154|108.162.219.154]] 02:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 31: / Line 32: @@
 Someone needs to add a discussion of prescriptivist vs. descriptivist linguists -- the person in the comic is clearly a descriptivist, the pedants described in the caption would be prescriptivists. (Incidentally, [https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=49309 Language Log] posted about the comic and there's some discussion.) [[User:Arcorann|Arcorann]] ([[User talk:Arcorann|talk]]) 14:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
-Yes this is saying most linguists are descriptivists, they find out what people say/write, and ask what they mean - Most linguists are descriptivists, and so are most dictionaries [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.128|162.158.159.128]] 15:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
+Yes this is saying most linguists are descriptivists, they find out what people say/write, and ask what they mean - and so are most dictionaries [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.128|162.158.159.128]] 15:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 I predict many links to the original XKCD comic will appear in the comments of the next Tom Scott linguistics YouTube video.[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.193|173.245.52.193]] 06:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:27, 30 November 2020
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	"What is it that Ponytail thinks is being said, and what should have been said to avoid misunderstanding?" <-- from the incomplete explanation box.		"What is it that Ponytail thinks is being said, and what should have been said to avoid misunderstanding?" <-- from the incomplete explanation box.
	I don't believe that Ponytail is misunderstanding anything. Ponytail (correctly) understands that the speaker-in-a-hole is in a hole and got there by means of falling. The joke is, rather than help the person out of the hole (as just about any normal human, linguist or not, would do), Ponytail sees an opportunity to do some field research, asking whether falling down a hole means the same thing to the unseen speaker as falling in a hole, or if there are subtle differences between the two. Most, if not all, native speakers of English would understand the meaning, but as you can see from the comments here, we do _have_ subtle differences between in/into/down in this context even if they might not be used in the heat of the moment. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.219\|162.158.74.219]] 13:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		I don't believe that Ponytail is misunderstanding anything. Ponytail (correctly) understands that the speaker-in-a-hole is in a hole and got there by means of falling. The joke is, rather than help the person out of the hole (as just about any normal human, linguist or not, would do), Ponytail sees an opportunity to do some field research, asking whether falling down a hole means the same thing to the unseen speaker as falling in a hole, or if there are subtle differences between the two. Most, if not all, native speakers of English would understand the meaning, but as you can see from the comments here, we do _have_ subtle differences between in/into/down in this context even if they might not be used in the heat of the moment. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.219\|162.158.74.219]] 13:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	This is one of the rare times that explain XKCD makes the comic seem more complicated [[Special:Contributions/162.158.106.36\|162.158.106.36]] 08:27, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 14: / Line 14: @@
 ::That when you finished falling,  you were 'more'  in the hole than you were originally.  EG, your knees and hands were now ALSO in the rut, because you landed on them.
-::Whereas "Fell Down a hole"  implies that the lowest point of your body, when you STARTED falling,  has actually experienced significant downward motion by the time you STOPPED falling.  you can't fall 'down' a hole if your ::foot was resting on the hole's bottom when you started out.
+::Whereas "Fell Down a hole"  implies that the lowest point of your body, when you STARTED falling,  has actually experienced significant downward motion by the time you STOPPED falling.  you can't fall 'down' a hole if your foot was resting on the hole's bottom when you started out.
 ::[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.35|108.162.216.35]] 19:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:41, 27 November 2020
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	I predict many links to the original XKCD comic will appear in the comments of the next Tom Scott linguistics YouTube video.[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.193\|173.245.52.193]] 06:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		I predict many links to the original XKCD comic will appear in the comments of the next Tom Scott linguistics YouTube video.[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.193\|173.245.52.193]] 06:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	"What is it that Ponytail thinks is being said, and what should have been said to avoid misunderstanding?" <-- from the incomplete explanation box.
		+	I don't believe that Ponytail is misunderstanding anything. Ponytail (correctly) understands that the speaker-in-a-hole is in a hole and got there by means of falling. The joke is, rather than help the person out of the hole (as just about any normal human, linguist or not, would do), Ponytail sees an opportunity to do some field research, asking whether falling down a hole means the same thing to the unseen speaker as falling in a hole, or if there are subtle differences between the two. Most, if not all, native speakers of English would understand the meaning, but as you can see from the comments here, we do _have_ subtle differences between in/into/down in this context even if they might not be used in the heat of the moment. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.219\|162.158.74.219]] 13:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:12, 27 November 2020
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	Yes this is saying most linguists are descriptivists, they find out what people say/write, and ask what they mean - Most linguists are descriptivists, and so are most dictionaries [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.128\|162.158.159.128]] 15:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)		Yes this is saying most linguists are descriptivists, they find out what people say/write, and ask what they mean - Most linguists are descriptivists, and so are most dictionaries [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.128\|162.158.159.128]] 15:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	I predict many links to the original XKCD comic will appear in the comments of the next Tom Scott linguistics YouTube video.[[Special:Contributions/173.245.52.193\|173.245.52.193]] 06:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 7: / Line 7: @@
 :"Fell into..." makes me think that he fell/tripped and instead of landing on the ground, he went into the hole. (BTW, I've lived in this house 45+ years. I've never fallen down the stairs, but I have fallen "up" them, ie. I tripped on the way up and face-planted, even though I didn't continue upwards.) [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 09:22, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 I suppose "in a hole" is probably ''technically'' wrong (except for those cases where the individual in question was in a hole and then fell), but I would probably use it in speech (though maybe not more formal writing). There ''is'' a distinction between 'in' and 'down' however. When something falls down a hole, no part of it remains outside the hole. If it falls in(/to) a hole, at least some -- possibly most -- of the object remains outside the hole. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.191|108.162.216.191]] 02:26, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 Did anyone else notice that this comic seems to have significantly higher resolution than others? It’s especially noticeable on mobile browsers, but I haven’t tested it on PC. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.154|108.162.219.154]] 02:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:09, 26 November 2020
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	Someone needs to add a discussion of prescriptivist vs. descriptivist linguists -- the person in the comic is clearly a descriptivist, the pedants described in the caption would be prescriptivists. (Incidentally, [https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=49309 Language Log] posted about the comic and there's some discussion.) [[User:Arcorann\|Arcorann]] ([[User talk:Arcorann\|talk]]) 14:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)		Someone needs to add a discussion of prescriptivist vs. descriptivist linguists -- the person in the comic is clearly a descriptivist, the pedants described in the caption would be prescriptivists. (Incidentally, [https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=49309 Language Log] posted about the comic and there's some discussion.) [[User:Arcorann\|Arcorann]] ([[User talk:Arcorann\|talk]]) 14:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

−	Yes this is saying most linguists are descriptivists, they find out what people say/write, and ask what they mean - Most linguists are descriptivists, and so are most dictionaries	+	Yes this is saying most linguists are descriptivists, they find out what people say/write, and ask what they mean - Most linguists are descriptivists, and so are most dictionaries [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.128\|162.158.159.128]] 15:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)