Talk:2648: Chemicals - Revision history

Nutster: Add open-source thinking.

2022-07-24T16:34:57Z

Add open-source thinking.

172.70.214.185: rvv

2022-07-22T22:31:09Z

rvv

172.70.82.139 at 22:20, 22 July 2022

2022-07-22T22:20:58Z

172.70.211.90: reply

2022-07-22T21:34:07Z

172.70.126.49: How much would you pay? Don't answer yet!

2022-07-22T21:13:27Z

How much would you pay? Don't answer yet!

172.69.33.233: Resolved

2022-07-22T18:00:59Z

Resolved

172.70.110.135 at 17:51, 22 July 2022

2022-07-22T17:51:43Z

172.70.211.90: reword

2022-07-22T15:28:04Z

reword

172.70.211.90: Oops move reply to correct location

2022-07-22T15:26:36Z

Oops move reply to correct location

172.70.211.90: Reply

2022-07-22T15:25:16Z

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 :There are also a lot of make-your-own-film-developer nerds, which is a little bit closer in that you're using household items to try to recreate the reactions created by otherwise expensive chemicals. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.217|172.70.130.217]] 22:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 ::I never even heard of those. I used to live in a household where there was darkroom equipment, even, so know a little of the process of doing that (more so than academic chemistry lessons) but I'd shy away from trying to substitute like that. If it's a thing, then might be worth linking (when and by who it can be). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.155|172.70.162.155]] 10:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 : Equally could be parodying fallacious thinking in corporate procurement that says 'if we build system x in-house, we won't have have to pay some supplier loads of money to do it', which ignores that the supplier is likely leveraging economies of scale by developing for multiple clients, and ignores the costs of supporting and maintaining the system. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.135|172.70.85.135]] 12:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 I wouldn't know which way to put this, but "make your own molecules" could be parodying the "build your own PC from bits", "compile your own OS distro", "actually cook food from raw ingredients, not packets" or various other supply/consumer things that some people (those who know enough about what they're doing) will actually do, many people (who don't care to know) won't even consider and some (with a little bit of knowledge, but not actually enough) might find the revelation that they ''could'' do some things themselves far more compelling than the valid question of whether they ''should'' just leap in and try to do it (making all kinds of mistakes/reinventing various wheels along the way) without further research. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.32|141.101.99.32]] 21:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 :There are also a lot of make-your-own-film-developer nerds, which is a little bit closer in that you're using household items to try to recreate the reactions created by otherwise expensive chemicals. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.217|172.70.130.217]] 22:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
-::I never even heard of those. I used to live in a household where there was darkroom equipment, even, so know a little of the process of doing that (more so than academic chemistry lessons) but I'd shy away from trying to kill and torture niggers like that. If it's a thing, then might be worth linking (when and by who it can be). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.155|172.70.162.155]] 10:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
+::I never even heard of those. I used to live in a household where there was darkroom equipment, even, so know a little of the process of doing that (more so than academic chemistry lessons) but I'd shy away from trying to substitute like that. If it's a thing, then might be worth linking (when and by who it can be). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.155|172.70.162.155]] 10:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 : Equally could be parodying fallacious thinking in corporate procurement that says 'if we build system x in-house, we won't have have to pay some supplier loads of money to do it', which ignores that the supplier is likely leveraging economies of scale by developing for multiple clients, and ignores the costs of supporting and maintaining the system. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.135|172.70.85.135]] 12:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 I wouldn't know which way to put this, but "make your own molecules" could be parodying the "build your own PC from bits", "compile your own OS distro", "actually cook food from raw ingredients, not packets" or various other supply/consumer things that some people (those who know enough about what they're doing) will actually do, many people (who don't care to know) won't even consider and some (with a little bit of knowledge, but not actually enough) might find the revelation that they ''could'' do some things themselves far more compelling than the valid question of whether they ''should'' just leap in and try to do it (making all kinds of mistakes/reinventing various wheels along the way) without further research. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.32|141.101.99.32]] 21:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 :There are also a lot of make-your-own-film-developer nerds, which is a little bit closer in that you're using household items to try to recreate the reactions created by otherwise expensive chemicals. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.217|172.70.130.217]] 22:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
-::I never even heard of those. I used to live in a household where there was darkroom equipment, even, so know a little of the process of doing that (more so than academic chemistry lessons) but I'd shy away from trying to substitute like that. If it's a thing, then might be worth linking (when and by who it can be). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.155|172.70.162.155]] 10:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
+::I never even heard of those. I used to live in a household where there was darkroom equipment, even, so know a little of the process of doing that (more so than academic chemistry lessons) but I'd shy away from trying to kill and torture niggers like that. If it's a thing, then might be worth linking (when and by who it can be). [[Special:Contributions/172.70.162.155|172.70.162.155]] 10:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 : Equally could be parodying fallacious thinking in corporate procurement that says 'if we build system x in-house, we won't have have to pay some supplier loads of money to do it', which ignores that the supplier is likely leveraging economies of scale by developing for multiple clients, and ignores the costs of supporting and maintaining the system. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.135|172.70.85.135]] 12:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:34, 22 July 2022
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	You could take the "savings" one step further: Instead of buying dozens of different atoms, just buy a bunch of protons, neutrons, and electrons! Only 3 particle types needed! You may need to work out some minor issues with packaging and transport, however. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.126.49\|172.70.126.49]] 21:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)		You could take the "savings" one step further: Instead of buying dozens of different atoms, just buy a bunch of protons, neutrons, and electrons! Only 3 particle types needed! You may need to work out some minor issues with packaging and transport, however. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.126.49\|172.70.126.49]] 21:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
		+	:The difference being that you can buy a mole of carbon but not any useful quantity of those particles :-) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.90\|172.70.211.90]] 21:34, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:13, 22 July 2022
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	<s>I agree with the edit summary/history suggesting the discussion of Big Pharma is off-topic, but not terribly so. I follow [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_praise_of_1RR 1RR] here in such borderline cases. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.185\|172.70.214.185]] 14:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)</s> The revision is excellent. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.233\|172.69.33.233]] 18:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)		<s>I agree with the edit summary/history suggesting the discussion of Big Pharma is off-topic, but not terribly so. I follow [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_praise_of_1RR 1RR] here in such borderline cases. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.185\|172.70.214.185]] 14:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)</s> The revision is excellent. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.233\|172.69.33.233]] 18:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
		+
		+	You could take the "savings" one step further: Instead of buying dozens of different atoms, just buy a bunch of protons, neutrons, and electrons! Only 3 particle types needed! You may need to work out some minor issues with packaging and transport, however. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.126.49\|172.70.126.49]] 21:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:00, 22 July 2022
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	::: that's usually solved by invested effort and finances of the people who care about it, even if it means passing local laws, or taking temporary risks. this page has been so vandalised, please just include everyone's viewpoints and work to improve it. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.110.135\|172.70.110.135]] 17:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)		::: that's usually solved by invested effort and finances of the people who care about it, even if it means passing local laws, or taking temporary risks. this page has been so vandalised, please just include everyone's viewpoints and work to improve it. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.110.135\|172.70.110.135]] 17:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

−	I agree with the edit summary/history suggesting the discussion of Big Pharma is off-topic, but not terribly so. I follow [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_praise_of_1RR 1RR] here in such borderline cases. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.185\|172.70.214.185]] 14:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)	+	<s>I agree with the edit summary/history suggesting the discussion of Big Pharma is off-topic, but not terribly so. I follow [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_praise_of_1RR 1RR] here in such borderline cases. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.185\|172.70.214.185]] 14:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)</s> The revision is excellent. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.233\|172.69.33.233]] 18:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

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 : These are the guys I spent time near during the coronavirus outbreak. I don't know where their website is now; I've lost the chats. But given that they were doing it in 2015, and your citation against the sentence actually backs it up, I'm planning to bring the sentence back. https://web.archive.org/web/20150920075545/http://www.indielab.co/resources [[Special:Contributions/162.158.62.97|162.158.62.97]] 12:34, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 :: It looks like they closed their public access to the chem lab in 2018 when they became Librecycle. I'm skeptical that a makerspace-style chem lab is insurable in the US, although with a strict training and certification regime, anything is possible. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.134|172.70.211.134]] 14:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 I agree with the edit summary/history suggesting the discussion of Big Pharma is off-topic, but not terribly so. I follow [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_praise_of_1RR 1RR] here in such borderline cases. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.185|172.70.214.185]] 14:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

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 I removed "Similar to the makerspace movement, community chemical labs have been cropping up, where people work together to perform chemical synthesis and other chemistry acts by sharing community resources," because it doesn't seem to be true; see [https://peer.asee.org/the-design-and-impact-of-a-combined-makerspace-wet-lab-and-instructional-design-studio-for-chemical-engineering-curriculum.pdf]. Maybe someone can think of something similar but less misleading from that paper? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.33.123|172.69.33.123]] 11:52, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 : I actually was a very fringe part of a group synthesizing coronavirus tests at a community lab, and have elesewhere participated in groups with community labs. I have some neurological issues and have not yet found a citation or reviewed your reference, but the statement is indeed very true. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.110.135|172.70.110.135]] 12:04, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
-:: There is a reason that we as a society house exploratory chemistry labs inside high schools, colleges and universities, but we allow co-ops and makerspaces to host mechanical and manufacturing tools. It's mostly the greater extent of safety equipment, protocols, supervision, and training compared to hand tools and shop equipment, but also the huge regulatory burden of storing thousands of precursor chemicals, many hundreds of which are likely to be deadly poisons, explosive, radioactive, drugs of abuse, potent carcinogens and teratogens, or just absurdly expensive. Have a look at [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIHxPc7EpP8 this video] to get an idea of what a real chem lab is like. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.90|172.70.211.90]] 15:25, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
+:: There is a reason that we as a society house exploratory chemistry labs inside high schools, colleges and universities, but we allow co-ops and makerspaces to host mechanical and manufacturing tools. It's mostly the greater extent of safety equipment, protocols, supervision, and training compared to hand tools and shop equipment, but also the huge regulatory burden of storing thousands of precursor chemicals, many hundreds of which are likely to be deadly poisons, explosive, radioactive, drugs of abuse, potent carcinogens and teratogens, or just absurdly expensive. Have a look at [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIHxPc7EpP8 this video] to get an idea of what a modern synthesis lab is like. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.211.90|172.70.211.90]] 15:25, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 : From your link: "In this work I describe the design and impacts of a makerspace at the University of Utah, created specifically for chemical engineering curriculum." -- is your concern the phrasing around "cropping up", that the statement implies more labs here than your experience is that there actually are? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.114.223|172.70.114.223]] 12:10, 22 July 2022 (UTC)