Talk:2738: Omniknot - Revision history

Firestar233 at 04:28, 5 February 2025

2025-02-05T04:28:06Z

B for brain at 08:49, 7 September 2024

2024-09-07T08:49:23Z

172.69.134.31 at 21:47, 15 January 2024

2024-01-15T21:47:16Z

172.70.85.110: Modified revert (with additional reply)

2023-06-20T21:07:09Z

Modified revert (with additional reply)

172.69.134.141: spelling correction

2023-06-20T06:02:34Z

spelling correction

Mikemenn at 16:06, 19 February 2023

2023-02-19T16:06:09Z

172.69.79.132 at 15:04, 19 February 2023

2023-02-19T15:04:11Z

NiceGuy1 at 06:15, 19 February 2023

2023-02-19T06:15:52Z

NiceGuy1 at 05:19, 19 February 2023

2023-02-19T05:19:24Z

172.71.147.59 at 03:37, 18 February 2023

2023-02-18T03:37:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:28, 5 February 2025
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	Does the omniknot of all knots which do not contain themselves contain itself? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.31\|172.69.134.31]] 21:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)		Does the omniknot of all knots which do not contain themselves contain itself? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.31\|172.69.134.31]] 21:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	The bowline is the same as a sheet bend where one of the ends is used as the other rope. i would classify the knots bracketing the middle knots as sheet bends because the same rope doesn't go back to complete the knot. [[User:Firestar233\|guess who]] ([[User talk:Firestar233\|if you desire conversing]] \| [[Special:Contributions/Firestar233\|what i have done]]) 04:28, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 "it is knot recommended to use overly complex knots ..." -- is this meant as a joke? the wrong not is used before recommended
 :Of course, obviously. :) There's no doubt in my mind. Explain XKCD editors can't help adding jokes and puns wherever possible, and this one is somewhat required, LOL! (Also, sign your comments, please) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 06:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 Made it: https://imgur.com/gallery/cYQQPKq [[User:Mikemenn|Mikemenn]] ([[User talk:Mikemenn|talk]]) 16:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Mikemenn
 Does the omniknot of all knots which do not contain themselves contain itself? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.31|172.69.134.31]] 21:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:47, 15 January 2024
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	Made it: https://imgur.com/gallery/cYQQPKq [[User:Mikemenn\|Mikemenn]] ([[User talk:Mikemenn\|talk]]) 16:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Mikemenn		Made it: https://imgur.com/gallery/cYQQPKq [[User:Mikemenn\|Mikemenn]] ([[User talk:Mikemenn\|talk]]) 16:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Mikemenn
		+
		+	Does the omniknot of all knots which do not contain themselves contain itself? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.31\|172.69.134.31]] 21:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 Sailor here. The "granny knot" is what a sailor would call a "thief's knot", and it used to be used in place of a reef knot, in some parts of the world, when stores were suspected to be going missing; the thief, after taking some of the stores, would re-lash the remainder using a proper reef knot (through force of habit) and the change of knot would give away that the stores are being taken from that pile.
-Additionally, the two bends at the sides look more like sheet bends than bowlines, to me. It just looks like a rope is passed through a bight and then holds the bight together with a half-hitch. (Maybe I just can't get my head around the orientation, though?)
+Additionally, the two bends at the sides look more like sheet bends than bowlines, to me. It just looks like a rope is passed through a bite and then holds the bite together with a half-hitch. (Maybe I just can't get my head around the orientation, though?)
-Lastly - is it maybe worth adding that the reason for the figure-of-eights at the tail of the rope is to act as a "stopper" knot, to prevent the tail working it's way back through the half-hitch, which would enable the bight to come apart and the whole thing to come loose? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.147|172.70.86.147]] 10:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
+Lastly - is it maybe worth adding that the reason for the figure-of-eights at the tail of the rope is to act as a "stopper" knot, to prevent the tail working it's way back through the half-hitch, which would enable the bite to come apart and the whole thing to come loose? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.147|172.70.86.147]] 10:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 :A note that a Granny knot is ''not'' the Thief knot. A Granny is (often!) a mis-tied Reef, half re-handed to create a less flat version of the binding, whilst a Thief is a variation of the Reef, which has the opposite track to one of the cords to look the same at first glance (enough to catch the unwary/rushed, as you say, who might then fail to restore it as originally left).
 :In fact, a knot that has been given the variations of both '''Gr'''anny and Th'''ief''' is called a "Grief", rather than be back to the original Reef (or a functionally identical reflection/rotation). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.64|172.71.178.64]] 12:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 :I corrected "bite" to "bight", as that's the correct spelling for a loop of rope or line. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.141|172.69.134.141]] 06:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 Both bowlines are the "correctly" tied sailor's bowline. There is an alternative "left-handed" version in which the end goes the other direction, coming out to the side rather than the interior of the knot. Also called the cowboy bowline, ABOK 1034.5 It is unclear which version is better. One could probably do a PhD dissertation on bowline knots. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.30.97|172.71.30.97]] 14:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 Sailor here. The "granny knot" is what a sailor would call a "thief's knot", and it used to be used in place of a reef knot, in some parts of the world, when stores were suspected to be going missing; the thief, after taking some of the stores, would re-lash the remainder using a proper reef knot (through force of habit) and the change of knot would give away that the stores are being taken from that pile.
-Additionally, the two bends at the sides look more like sheet bends than bowlines, to me. It just looks like a rope is passed through a bite and then holds the bite together with a half-hitch. (Maybe I just can't get my head around the orientation, though?)
+Additionally, the two bends at the sides look more like sheet bends than bowlines, to me. It just looks like a rope is passed through a bight and then holds the bight together with a half-hitch. (Maybe I just can't get my head around the orientation, though?)
-Lastly - is it maybe worth adding that the reason for the figure-of-eights at the tail of the rope is to act as a "stopper" knot, to prevent the tail working it's way back through the half-hitch, which would enable the bite to come apart and the whole thing to come loose? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.147|172.70.86.147]] 10:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
+Lastly - is it maybe worth adding that the reason for the figure-of-eights at the tail of the rope is to act as a "stopper" knot, to prevent the tail working it's way back through the half-hitch, which would enable the bight to come apart and the whole thing to come loose? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.147|172.70.86.147]] 10:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 :A note that a Granny knot is ''not'' the Thief knot. A Granny is (often!) a mis-tied Reef, half re-handed to create a less flat version of the binding, whilst a Thief is a variation of the Reef, which has the opposite track to one of the cords to look the same at first glance (enough to catch the unwary/rushed, as you say, who might then fail to restore it as originally left).
 :In fact, a knot that has been given the variations of both '''Gr'''anny and Th'''ief''' is called a "Grief", rather than be back to the original Reef (or a functionally identical reflection/rotation). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.64|172.71.178.64]] 12:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 Both bowlines are the "correctly" tied sailor's bowline. There is an alternative "left-handed" version in which the end goes the other direction, coming out to the side rather than the interior of the knot. Also called the cowboy bowline, ABOK 1034.5 It is unclear which version is better. One could probably do a PhD dissertation on bowline knots. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.30.97|172.71.30.97]] 14:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:06, 19 February 2023
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	"it is knot recommended to use overly complex knots ..." -- is this meant as a joke? the wrong not is used before recommended		"it is knot recommended to use overly complex knots ..." -- is this meant as a joke? the wrong not is used before recommended
	:Of course, obviously. :) There's no doubt in my mind. Explain XKCD editors can't help adding jokes and puns wherever possible, and this one is somewhat required, LOL! (Also, sign your comments, please) [[User:NiceGuy1\|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1\|talk]]) 06:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)		:Of course, obviously. :) There's no doubt in my mind. Explain XKCD editors can't help adding jokes and puns wherever possible, and this one is somewhat required, LOL! (Also, sign your comments, please) [[User:NiceGuy1\|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1\|talk]]) 06:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	Made it: https://imgur.com/gallery/cYQQPKq [[User:Mikemenn\|Mikemenn]] ([[User talk:Mikemenn\|talk]]) 16:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)Mikemenn

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 [[User:Rps|Rps]] ([[User talk:Rps|talk]]) 17:08, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 :Feels like this NEEDS to be included in the explanation so I added it. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:19, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 Damn, I traced it myself and I am pretty sure the picture on twitter is better (I will not look, I will only get depressed...) I'd put that coloured picture under "transcript" ;-)[[Special:Contributions/172.68.51.140|172.68.51.140]] 18:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:15, 19 February 2023
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	"it is knot recommended to use overly complex knots ..." -- is this meant as a joke? the wrong not is used before recommended		"it is knot recommended to use overly complex knots ..." -- is this meant as a joke? the wrong not is used before recommended
		+	:Of course, obviously. :) There's no doubt in my mind. Explain XKCD editors can't help adding jokes and puns wherever possible, and this one is somewhat required, LOL! (Also, sign your comments, please) [[User:NiceGuy1\|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1\|talk]]) 06:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 https://twitter.com/hollowgrin/status/1625902852387352576
 [[User:Rps|Rps]] ([[User talk:Rps|talk]]) 17:08, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 Damn, I traced it myself and I am pretty sure the picture on twitter is better (I will not look, I will only get depressed...) I'd put that coloured picture under "transcript" ;-)[[Special:Contributions/172.68.51.140|172.68.51.140]] 18:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 I don't suppose any of you knot-loreheads would care to add an explanation/link to explain "Connecting them with a hitch" from the title text? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.254.231|172.70.254.231]] 21:58, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
@@ Line 18: / Line 20: @@
 Is there a mistake in the title text then, since he says to use a random hitch to connect something from the top (presumably rope in the form of a knot) to something in the bottom (presumably more rope)? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.82.186|172.70.82.186]] 22:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 I tied it in real life. Once everything was tightened, the main taut portion was the Carrick bend with the other four knots slacking below, and it held pretty well. I imagine if the slack was on the other side, putting stress on the granny knot, it would be a different story. I would upload the picture but I messed up the reef knot and that pulled straight out. --[[User:Jacky720|Jack]] ([[User talk:Jacky720|t]]|[[Special:Contributions/Jacky720|c]]) 22:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 32: / Line 32: @@
 Scoutmaster here.  I recommend the "Animated Knots by Grog" website as a knot reference.  The Wikipedia entries on granny and grief knots are surprisingly useful references for how those knots differ from each other and the reef knot.<br />
-The knot on top is definitely a granny knot and not a grief knot.<br />
+The knot on top is definitely a <s>granny knot and not a grief knot.</s> I was wrong.  :P  Since the ends that terminate the knot exit on opposite sides instead of the same side, calling it a grief knot is not wrong.<br />
 Left and right knots are bowlines because they have three working ends and one dead end.  The sheet bend has two live ends and two dead ends.  The center knot is indeterminate; if you cover up the ends it could be either a sheet bend or a bowline, as they have the same form.  Since it appears to have four live ends it would be fair to call it "neither" as well.  PhD thesis topic, indeed.<br />
 I'd also like to point out that the capsizing nature of the reef knot is considered a feature - it affords easy untying even after being used under heavy load, such as holding a rolled up sail hanging from a yard arm.  Being able to unfurl the sail by pulling a single rope is useful.  As already noted on the page: if you don't want that feature, pick a different knot. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.146.36|172.71.146.36]] 14:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 :And an uncollapsed Reef tends to jam itself, to not simply undo. You need to force it (or rely upon it rotating, through (improper?) use) to make it into a "cow hitch around a straight rope" form and thus an easier untie. Which you can only do if you have sufficient slack on one 'end'.
 :(Not sure you could guarantee it capsizing, deliberately or incidentaly, in the omniknot situation once the whole mass gets strained. And there's no way ''that'' Reef segment can undo itsef, without plenty of other knot-failures happening, even if it does re-wrap...) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.100|172.70.91.100]] 18:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 According to at least one interpretation I've heard, the origin of the Gordian knot story is the use of a complex knot as a sort of tamper evident seal. It won't stop a determined intruder, but it will let the the owner know someone has violated the seal (because the rope is either loose or tied back differently), and let the would-be violator know that the violation they might be considering won't go unnoticed. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.30.143|172.71.30.143]] 16:27, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 "it is knot recommended to use overly complex knots ..." -- is this meant as a joke? the wrong not is used before recommended