Talk:2761: 1-to-1 Scale - Revision history

Psychoticpotato at 13:39, 6 May 2024

2024-05-06T13:39:52Z

172.68.174.83: Fix template link

2024-03-13T00:36:34Z

Fix template link

172.68.146.52: Comment on appearance of depiction 'space stuff'

2023-04-21T21:47:49Z

Comment on appearance of depiction 'space stuff'

Boffy b: punctuation

2023-04-19T21:35:38Z

punctuation

Boffy b: A very practical suggestion

2023-04-19T21:33:57Z

A very practical suggestion

Quantum7: Correction: image is by 172.69.194.80 not Flekkie

2023-04-17T23:36:54Z

Correction: image is by 172.69.194.80 not Flekkie

Quantum7: Another scaled image showing all planets

2023-04-17T23:34:12Z

Another scaled image showing all planets

Quantum7: Adding signature for previous comment

2023-04-17T23:21:25Z

Adding signature for previous comment

162.158.94.177: calculate ant length from image dpi

2023-04-17T23:19:13Z

calculate ant length from image dpi

DanShock: correct MB unit conversion error

2023-04-14T20:24:59Z

correct MB unit conversion error

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 ::Correct re: gas giants.  Typically 1 bar, which is approximately Earth's atmospheric pressure at sea level.[[Special:Contributions/162.158.158.139|162.158.158.139]] 16:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 :: just to be very clear (this being a explanation site!) that Venus is "treated like a gas giant" because of it's thick atmosphere. It would be just as correct to say "All the gas giants are treated like Venus" After all, ordinary telescopes couldn't take a picture that sees through any atmospheres, except Earth, where you'd see clouds but often surface where clouds don't appear. Sorry if that's an overexplanation [[User:Cuvtixo|Cuvtixo]] ([[User talk:Cuvtixo|talk]]) 19:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 On Twitter there seems to be concern that all planets are depicted flat. This may make this a contribution/mockery of the ongoing [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth Flat Earth] discussions in some corners of the internet. --[[Special:Contributions/198.41.242.132|198.41.242.132]] 06:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 The display for an uncropped version of the image would not only be larger than any display on earth. It would be larger than earth. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.86.243|162.158.86.243]] 06:59, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 :By necessity, at least as large as Jupiter. Maybe slightly above two Jupiters (max dimension squared compared to display height*width of any common aspect ratio) if you wanted to not overlay any of the others at all. And make the lower limit a packing-problem, then add a buffer so there isn't the actual need for any to touch. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.253|172.70.90.253]] 10:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
-::I'm going to add that. Someone was confused enough to put {{cite needed}} there, which may be a joke onto itself?, I can't tell. I've removed the cite needed, but I guess it needs to be more clear why it's totally nonsensical and doesn't need a citation? [[User:Cuvtixo|Cuvtixo]] ([[User talk:Cuvtixo|talk]]) 19:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
+::I'm going to add that. Someone was confused enough to put {{tl|citation needed}} there, which may be a joke onto itself?, I can't tell. I've removed the cite needed, but I guess it needs to be more clear why it's totally nonsensical and doesn't need a citation? [[User:Cuvtixo|Cuvtixo]] ([[User talk:Cuvtixo|talk]]) 19:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 :::The four inner planets are small enough to fit the upper left corner of any display big enough for Jupiter. As Uranus and Neptune are smaller than the latter one, they cannot extend past its top, bottom or right edge in the constellation shown, so they will not need additonal screen space either. Only Saturn is shifted so far to the left that he will require more width than Jupiter itself, but will still fit within the same height. Knowing Randall, the shown angles are not random, but were calculated to match a commercial available display ratio with Saturn placed touching the left edge and Jupiter touching the top, bottom and right edges. 16:9 or 16:10 at 142 km hight would be a fair guess, so I would not rule out 4:3 resulting in total width significantly smaller than two Jupiters. Of course Randall might also be playing hardcore nerd: The outer diameter of Saturns F ring, which is almost always included in representations, has almost exactly a ratio of 32:9 to Jupiters polar diameter, making a picture showing the former in front of the latter a perfect match for those new fancy double wide monitors. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.77|162.158.111.77]] 00:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 :Just use a projector, obviously. [[User:Boffy b|Boffy b]] ([[User talk:Boffy b|talk]]) 21:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 55: / Line 55: @@
 ::No, the polygon is the sky. Zoom in and you see the Milky Way and stars and other space stuff. And the ant on the Earth has its legs pointing upwards (in the reference frame of the image). [[Special:Contributions/162.158.239.26|162.158.239.26]] 03:09, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 :::Agreed. [[User:N0lqu|-boB]] ([[User talk:N0lqu|talk]]) 13:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 Is this an ant on earth, over the letters "EA" ? On my monitor, set for my less-than-perfect vision, it is 15mm long, which (at a 1:1 scale) makes it a cow ant, or a large african ant. I guess people with normal vision get fire and carpenter ants instead? And those on smartphones get pavement ants?[[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.73|172.68.50.73]] 11:00, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

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 ::I'm going to add that. Someone was confused enough to put {{cite needed}} there, which may be a joke onto itself?, I can't tell. I've removed the cite needed, but I guess it needs to be more clear why it's totally nonsensical and doesn't need a citation? [[User:Cuvtixo|Cuvtixo]] ([[User talk:Cuvtixo|talk]]) 19:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 :::The four inner planets are small enough to fit the upper left corner of any display big enough for Jupiter. As Uranus and Neptune are smaller than the latter one, they cannot extend past its top, bottom or right edge in the constellation shown, so they will not need additonal screen space either. Only Saturn is shifted so far to the left that he will require more width than Jupiter itself, but will still fit within the same height. Knowing Randall, the shown angles are not random, but were calculated to match a commercial available display ratio with Saturn placed touching the left edge and Jupiter touching the top, bottom and right edges. 16:9 or 16:10 at 142 km hight would be a fair guess, so I would not rule out 4:3 resulting in total width significantly smaller than two Jupiters. Of course Randall might also be playing hardcore nerd: The outer diameter of Saturns F ring, which is almost always included in representations, has almost exactly a ratio of 32:9 to Jupiters polar diameter, making a picture showing the former in front of the latter a perfect match for those new fancy double wide monitors. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.77|162.158.111.77]] 00:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
-:Just use a projector, obviously [[User:Boffy b|Boffy b]] ([[User talk:Boffy b|talk]]) 21:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
+:Just use a projector, obviously. [[User:Boffy b|Boffy b]] ([[User talk:Boffy b|talk]]) 21:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:33, 19 April 2023
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	::I'm going to add that. Someone was confused enough to put {{cite needed}} there, which may be a joke onto itself?, I can't tell. I've removed the cite needed, but I guess it needs to be more clear why it's totally nonsensical and doesn't need a citation? [[User:Cuvtixo\|Cuvtixo]] ([[User talk:Cuvtixo\|talk]]) 19:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)		::I'm going to add that. Someone was confused enough to put {{cite needed}} there, which may be a joke onto itself?, I can't tell. I've removed the cite needed, but I guess it needs to be more clear why it's totally nonsensical and doesn't need a citation? [[User:Cuvtixo\|Cuvtixo]] ([[User talk:Cuvtixo\|talk]]) 19:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
	:::The four inner planets are small enough to fit the upper left corner of any display big enough for Jupiter. As Uranus and Neptune are smaller than the latter one, they cannot extend past its top, bottom or right edge in the constellation shown, so they will not need additonal screen space either. Only Saturn is shifted so far to the left that he will require more width than Jupiter itself, but will still fit within the same height. Knowing Randall, the shown angles are not random, but were calculated to match a commercial available display ratio with Saturn placed touching the left edge and Jupiter touching the top, bottom and right edges. 16:9 or 16:10 at 142 km hight would be a fair guess, so I would not rule out 4:3 resulting in total width significantly smaller than two Jupiters. Of course Randall might also be playing hardcore nerd: The outer diameter of Saturns F ring, which is almost always included in representations, has almost exactly a ratio of 32:9 to Jupiters polar diameter, making a picture showing the former in front of the latter a perfect match for those new fancy double wide monitors. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.77\|162.158.111.77]] 00:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)		:::The four inner planets are small enough to fit the upper left corner of any display big enough for Jupiter. As Uranus and Neptune are smaller than the latter one, they cannot extend past its top, bottom or right edge in the constellation shown, so they will not need additonal screen space either. Only Saturn is shifted so far to the left that he will require more width than Jupiter itself, but will still fit within the same height. Knowing Randall, the shown angles are not random, but were calculated to match a commercial available display ratio with Saturn placed touching the left edge and Jupiter touching the top, bottom and right edges. 16:9 or 16:10 at 142 km hight would be a fair guess, so I would not rule out 4:3 resulting in total width significantly smaller than two Jupiters. Of course Randall might also be playing hardcore nerd: The outer diameter of Saturns F ring, which is almost always included in representations, has almost exactly a ratio of 32:9 to Jupiters polar diameter, making a picture showing the former in front of the latter a perfect match for those new fancy double wide monitors. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.77\|162.158.111.77]] 00:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
		+	:Just use a projector, obviously [[User:Boffy b\|Boffy b]] ([[User talk:Boffy b\|talk]]) 21:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

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 : that is a very clarifying picture, thank you! Shall we include it on the explanation page? It belongs there IMO [[User:Flekkie|Flekkie]] ([[User talk:Flekkie|talk]]) 22:19, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 :: You may by me. The original picture is from NASA https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/686/solar-system-sizes/ and they have no restrictive copyright either. I view this picture as 2D planets stacked and not real planets viewed in space since this is clearly impossible orientation and you couldn't see half the planets, let alone ant on Earth's surface, from behind Neptunes orbit [[Special:Contributions/162.158.239.26|162.158.239.26]] 10:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
-::: I calculated the positions of the planets based off the same idea and created a [https://gist.githubusercontent.com/sbliven/83324f3d59f7733828191733cd62ee00/raw/a47df59fa229a4df37a6115b3c52b91290cbb56e/1_to_many_scale.svg similar figure] mathematically ([https://gist.github.com/sbliven/83324f3d59f7733828191733cd62ee00 source code]). [[User:Flekkie|Flekkie]]'s version differs very slightly: the "window" is exaggerated a bit (all planets should meet at this scale) and Mars is visible rather than being behind Venus/Satern. However as it is much prettier with the NASA images I suggest we include Flekkie's in the main explaination. [[User:Quantum7|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7|talk]]) 23:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
+::: I calculated the positions of the planets based off the same idea and created a [https://gist.githubusercontent.com/sbliven/83324f3d59f7733828191733cd62ee00/raw/a47df59fa229a4df37a6115b3c52b91290cbb56e/1_to_many_scale.svg similar figure] mathematically ([https://gist.github.com/sbliven/83324f3d59f7733828191733cd62ee00 source code]). [[Special:Contributions/172.69.194.80|172.69.194.80]]'s version differs very slightly: the "window" is exaggerated a bit (all planets should meet at this scale) and Mars is visible rather than being behind Venus/Satern. However as it is much prettier with the NASA images I suggest we include [[Special:Contributions/172.69.194.80|172.69.194.80]]'s in the main explaination. [[User:Quantum7|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7|talk]]) 23:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 : Is this right though?  Based off the image Mercury is in front of Saturn.  For this to happen, Mercury has to be closer distance wise, so Saturn has to be on the opposite side of the sun.  But that can't be true if Saturn is in front of Jupiter and behind Uranus/Neptune?

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 Is this an ant on earth, over the letters "EA" ? On my monitor, set for my less-than-perfect vision, it is 15mm long, which (at a 1:1 scale) makes it a cow ant, or a large african ant. I guess people with normal vision get fire and carpenter ants instead? And those on smartphones get pavement ants?[[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.73|172.68.50.73]] 11:00, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 :I do believe it is! It's 6&nbsp;mm on my desktop monitor and 3&nbsp;mm on my phone. We also don't know what side of the Earth we're looking at, so I suppose it could really be any ant, including the one in your local area. I like to think it's a black garden ant (''Lasius niger''), since I'm most familiar with those :) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.239.25|162.158.239.25]] 12:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
-:: The image metadata suggests 80dpi for the image. The ant is around 20px long, so the ant is 6.35 mm long. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.94.177|162.158.94.177]] 23:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
+:: The image metadata suggests 80dpi for the image. The ant is around 20px long, so the ant is 6.35 mm long. [[User:Quantum7|Quantum7]] ([[User talk:Quantum7|talk]]) 23:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 It took me a good while to figure out this one; I don't normally need to come here, but this one stumped me at first. (The comments as of right now weren't too illuminating either.) I think the lack of color was an issue; I first thought the black polygon in the center was the earth, and then interpreted the various lines as a <em>really</em> weird diagram type I'd never seen before, like a phase diagram or something; I also considered one-dimensional planets. [https://imgur.com/a/yJOYvk1 I colored in the planets to aid me.] The way I now interpret this one is thus: imagine an observer sitting a tremendous distance away from the solar system, and they have a camera with an extremely supremely highly zooming telephoto lens. Then a lining-up of all eight planets happens – I believe this is impossible IRL (because of resonances or something), but just go with it. The observer manages to snap this incredible image of a teeny tiny spot of the sky, which simultaneously manages to include the very very edges of all the planets as well as some of the sky behind them all. The sky is the black polygon: it has nebulae and stars. Neptune is in front of Uranus, and that as well as Mercury are in front of Saturn, which is in front of both Jupiter and Mars; Venus is between Mercury, Mars and the Earth, and the Earth is also behind Jupiter. The reason why these are all so smooth is <em>because</em> it's such a small area: we're literally only seeing a couple of square inches of the surface of each of the rocky planets. (See, you can see an individual ant on the Earth. Go to the most rugged mountain range you can find and observe a couple of square inches; it'll be locally flat.) The lack of atmospheres on the rocky planets as well as the hard edges of the gas giants are artistic license. This one is a member of the genre of "true yet unhelpful diagrams"; I'm surprised that isn't a category on this wiki. – [[Special:Contributions/162.158.238.4|162.158.238.4]] 12:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

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 :The mean radius of Jupiter is about 70x10^6 m, so its area is roughly 1.5x10^16 sq meters.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter
 :That means the world's largest digital display would only provide a 7.8x10^-13 fraction of the area of Jupiter.
-:Going with NVIDIA's Titan V, which has Total Video Memory of 12288 MB, that would mean it could handle about 98,000 black-and-white (1 bit) pixels.
+:Going with NVIDIA's Titan V, which has Total Video Memory of 12288 MB, that would mean it could handle about 98x10^9 black-and-white (1 bit) pixels.
-:Using the pixel density of the world's largest digital display (16.4 megapixels), scaling it up by its 12000 sq meters to the area of Jupiter (1.5x10^6 sq meters), that comes out to 2.1x10^19 1-bit pixels. So, we would somehow need about 2.1x10^14 of those graphics cards working together to handle our Jupiter-sized display.
+:Using the pixel density of the world's largest digital display (16.4 megapixels), scaling it up by its 12000 sq meters to the area of Jupiter (1.5x10^6 sq meters), that comes out to 2.1x10^19 1-bit pixels. So, we would somehow need about 2.1x10^8 of those graphics cards working together to handle our Jupiter-sized display.
 :That display wouldn't even be at HD resolution, let alone 4K. Then again, if we use Apple's "Retina" designation that is dependent on reasonable viewing distance, that might be acceptable. [[User:DanShock|DanShock]] ([[User talk:DanShock|talk]]) 20:22, 14 April 2023 (UTC)