Talk:2790: Heat Pump - Revision history

172.69.79.184 at 18:54, 16 July 2023

2023-07-16T18:54:14Z

172.70.90.25 at 09:52, 15 July 2023

2023-07-15T09:52:45Z

NiceGuy1 at 05:48, 15 July 2023

2023-07-15T05:48:56Z

172.70.162.51: ...generalise, to prevent one obvious incorrect assumption.

2023-07-09T11:38:26Z

...generalise, to prevent one obvious incorrect assumption.

172.71.178.65 at 11:35, 9 July 2023

2023-07-09T11:35:09Z

NiceGuy1 at 04:05, 9 July 2023

2023-07-09T04:05:10Z

NiceGuy1 at 04:02, 9 July 2023

2023-07-09T04:02:02Z

NiceGuy1 at 03:53, 9 July 2023

2023-07-09T03:53:08Z

172.68.118.110 at 18:08, 2 July 2023

2023-07-02T18:08:20Z

NiceGuy1 at 05:26, 1 July 2023

2023-07-01T05:26:00Z

@@ Line 55: / Line 55: @@
 :::::::: You seem to be working hard to aggressively misunderstand and refuse to get my point, LOL! Actually, reminds me of a friend who I keep having to point out that she sucks at examples (like you). You don't nitpick the example, you use examples to understand the point being made. :) "Powered Ice Cube" is a fictitious concept I'm using in an attempt to be clearer. "Powered" as in its temperature is being maintained, power to stop it from warming up, it stays that cold (technically scientifically it would mean the power is being used to counteract the warming, to keep it at the same cold temperature). Honestly, all the explanation sounds like I was right after all, it really IS how refrigerators work, but that people on this website are immune to recognizing simpler explanations that non-scientific people can understand! :) I feel like I have a talent for simplifying things for more people to understand them, but in general the scientific community has an unfortunate addiction to only using scientific explanations, refusing to see or use the application of a simpler analog, and leaving people confused. ''*sigh*''. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 :::::::::You were confused, and it seems you remain exactly as confused. Despite all the energy pumped into the discussion. So much for entropy! [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.25|172.70.90.25]] 09:52, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 54: / Line 54: @@
 :::::::"Powered Ice Cubes" do get warmer. You push power into them and the hot end (technically still part of the PIC) has to dissipate that power. As well as the heat equivalent to that absorbed by the cold end. If you assess the whole system, though, it's either a system of closed entropy where it stays the same on average (whilst shuffling the energy gradients around 'internally') or the power you push into it from outside, to do the job of cooling some bits, ultimately has to come back out as extra heat/etc that the system never would have had otherwise. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.65|172.71.178.65]] 11:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 :::::::: You seem to be working hard to aggressively misunderstand and refuse to get my point, LOL! Actually, reminds me of a friend who I keep having to point out that she sucks at examples (like you). You don't nitpick the example, you use examples to understand the point being made. :) "Powered Ice Cube" is a fictitious concept I'm using in an attempt to be clearer. "Powered" as in its temperature is being maintained, power to stop it from warming up, it stays that cold (technically scientifically it would mean the power is being used to counteract the warming, to keep it at the same cold temperature). Honestly, all the explanation sounds like I was right after all, it really IS how refrigerators work, but that people on this website are immune to recognizing simpler explanations that non-scientific people can understand! :) I feel like I have a talent for simplifying things for more people to understand them, but in general the scientific community has an unfortunate addiction to only using scientific explanations, refusing to see or use the application of a simpler analog, and leaving people confused. ''*sigh*''. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 52: / Line 52: @@
 :::::The difference between ice-cooling and heat-pump cooling is that ice (outwith the freezer that created it) is a one-shot thing. It can equalise then does nothing more (you've just got a watery whisky, and personally I prefer it neat/as-poured anyway). The heat-pump uses a solid-state (peltier?) or closed-loop (refrigerant) mechanism to make one end of it cooler than the cool environment (heat energy goes towards that) and the warm end warmer than the warm environment (heat energy moves on out of that) without breaking the law that sould otherwise never allow the cool end to ''spontsneously'' give more jeat to the hot end than the hot would like to give to the cool end. Compression of a gas warms it (same heat, less volume, higher temperature), expansion of a gas cools it (same heat, more volume, lower temperature). Add the forcing of phase-change to the mix, in just the right way, and heat energy is made even more mobile (drawn in, radiated out, and transferable betwixt the two sides by advection/otherwise). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.30|172.71.178.30]] 11:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 ::::::Looks like you used a lot of words to say in detail the same thing I did, LOL! The thing is, my ice cube comparison isn't perfect, it was simply to illustrate what I was speaking of: the equalization of temperature by application of a source of cold. You mentioning watery drinks is rather off-topic, that's not actually a part of the temperature transfer, it's merely a side-effect of it, it's what happens when ice warms up. My point is that I was describing a "powered ice cube", i.e. one which remains immune to the temperature change, it doesn't get warmer, DOESN'T result in water, etc. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 03:53, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 :::::::"Powered Ice Cubes" do get warmer. You push power into them and the hot end (technically still part of the PIC) has to dissipate that power. As well as the heat equivalent to that absorbed by the cold end. If you assess the whole system, though, it's either a system of closed entropy where it stays the same on average (whilst shuffling the energy gradients around 'internally') or the power you push into it from outside, to do the job of cooling some bits, ultimately has to come back out as extra heat/etc that the system never would have had otherwise. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.65|172.71.178.65]] 11:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 52: / Line 52: @@
 :::::The difference between ice-cooling and heat-pump cooling is that ice (outwith the freezer that created it) is a one-shot thing. It can equalise then does nothing more (you've just got a watery whisky, and personally I prefer it neat/as-poured anyway). The heat-pump uses a solid-state (peltier?) or closed-loop (refrigerant) mechanism to make one end of it cooler than the cool environment (heat energy goes towards that) and the warm end warmer than the warm environment (heat energy moves on out of that) without breaking the law that sould otherwise never allow the cool end to ''spontsneously'' give more jeat to the hot end than the hot would like to give to the cool end. Compression of a gas warms it (same heat, less volume, higher temperature), expansion of a gas cools it (same heat, more volume, lower temperature). Add the forcing of phase-change to the mix, in just the right way, and heat energy is made even more mobile (drawn in, radiated out, and transferable betwixt the two sides by advection/otherwise). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.30|172.71.178.30]] 11:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 ::::::Looks like you used a lot of words to say in detail the same thing I did, LOL! The thing is, my ice cube comparison isn't perfect, it was simply to illustrate what I was speaking of: the equalization of temperature by application of a source of cold. You mentioning watery drinks is rather off-topic, that's not actually a part of the temperature transfer, it's merely a side-effect of it, it's what happens when ice warms up. My point is that I was describing a "powered ice cube", i.e. one which remains immune to the temperature change, it doesn't get warmer, DOESN'T result in water, etc. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 03:53, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::"Powered Ice Cubes" do get warmer. You push power into them and the hot end (technically still part of the PIC) has to dissipate that power. As well as the heat equivalent to that absorbed by the cold end. If you assess the whole system, though, it's either a system of closed entropy where it stays the same on average (whilst shuffling the temperature gradients around 'internally') or the power you push into it from outside, to do the job of cooling some bits, ultimately has to come back out as extra heat/etc that the system never would have had otherwise. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.65|172.71.178.65]] 11:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
+:::::::"Powered Ice Cubes" do get warmer. You push power into them and the hot end (technically still part of the PIC) has to dissipate that power. As well as the heat equivalent to that absorbed by the cold end. If you assess the whole system, though, it's either a system of closed entropy where it stays the same on average (whilst shuffling the energy gradients around 'internally') or the power you push into it from outside, to do the job of cooling some bits, ultimately has to come back out as extra heat/etc that the system never would have had otherwise. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.65|172.71.178.65]] 11:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 52: / Line 52: @@
 :::::The difference between ice-cooling and heat-pump cooling is that ice (outwith the freezer that created it) is a one-shot thing. It can equalise then does nothing more (you've just got a watery whisky, and personally I prefer it neat/as-poured anyway). The heat-pump uses a solid-state (peltier?) or closed-loop (refrigerant) mechanism to make one end of it cooler than the cool environment (heat energy goes towards that) and the warm end warmer than the warm environment (heat energy moves on out of that) without breaking the law that sould otherwise never allow the cool end to ''spontsneously'' give more jeat to the hot end than the hot would like to give to the cool end. Compression of a gas warms it (same heat, less volume, higher temperature), expansion of a gas cools it (same heat, more volume, lower temperature). Add the forcing of phase-change to the mix, in just the right way, and heat energy is made even more mobile (drawn in, radiated out, and transferable betwixt the two sides by advection/otherwise). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.30|172.71.178.30]] 11:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 ::::::Looks like you used a lot of words to say in detail the same thing I did, LOL! The thing is, my ice cube comparison isn't perfect, it was simply to illustrate what I was speaking of: the equalization of temperature by application of a source of cold. You mentioning watery drinks is rather off-topic, that's not actually a part of the temperature transfer, it's merely a side-effect of it, it's what happens when ice warms up. My point is that I was describing a "powered ice cube", i.e. one which remains immune to the temperature change, it doesn't get warmer, DOESN'T result in water, etc. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 03:53, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 71: / Line 71: @@
 ::Heh, that reminds me of my confusion as a kid when sometimes bathrooms would be labelled D and H (Damer/Herrer = ladies/gentlemen), and sometimes P and D (Piger/Drenge = girls/boys). [[User:Villemoes|Villemoes]] ([[User talk:Villemoes|talk]]) 12:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 ::What you say is odd... As a Canadian AND someone uninterested in politics, I never know what Republicans and Democrats believe, and I never know what the hell "left" and "right" means - save for being opposite beliefs - or who is what. But I DO know Republicans and Democrats, one is "left" and one is "right", I just don't know which is which. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
-:: Also, I'm born and raised in Quebec, where the H/C / C/F problem is worse: If the taps were made locally, they've been C/F, but if they're from the rest of North America (VERY common), they're H/C. LOL! It's STILL quite easy to get English ones at the renovation stores, AFAIK, I think it boils down to what language the decision-maker primarily speaks. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
+:: Also, I'm born and raised in Quebec, where the H/C / C/F problem is worse: If the taps were made locally, they've been C/F, but if they're from the rest of North America (VERY common), they're H/C. LOL! It's STILL quite easy to get English ones at the renovation stores, AFAIK, I think it boils down to what language the decision-maker primarily speaks. AND! I've seen ones where they swapped sides - my shower for most of the 2000s, for example - so you can't even truly count on Cold being the one on the right, you need the letters. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 Your parlance vary but to me a heat pump is a device that can heat or cool. (strangely, this would be easier to explain if I spoke of 'caloric' and coolth.' A heatpump is not an air conditioner except that it actually is when it wants to be: it can both move energy into a space and out of the space. Refrigerators only move energy out. Air conditioners only move energy out, (for the standard way to install them) the argue about summer and winter? Stop being silly. Here the outdoor temp has varied a lil in the past ten days. I think from a low of 45F (light jacket weather) to a high of 92 (uncomfortably warm). Here, to keep it comfortable inside at this time and (similar weather in the fall) I need to cool from about 3-7 pm and heat from about 3-9 am. If you live in a country that has rationing, my sympathies. "But apartment manager!! the toilet is frozen over!" "Yeah, doesn't matter. I can't turn the heat on until December 15." Sort of thing.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.86|172.70.130.86]] 00:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 :¿Que? You sound confused. And pumps (heat- or otherwise) needn't be bidirectional. Perhaps it's easier, even, with something slightly different like a peltier-effect system (with switchable power-flow) than to make a fully reversible source/sink set of radiators and compression/expansion chambers, on top of whatever you do to thaw frosting over of the cool-side, etc. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.25|172.70.86.25]] 01:04, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 ::::You assumed incorrectly, as I would think you could guess by the numbers chosen. :) In actual fact I was talking Celsius, but avoiding specifying and trying to use numbers that would still make sense in Fahrenheit/both in case I'm talking to an American (I missed, really, as I'm pretty sure 30°F is still cold, with 10°C being chilly and 30°C is DAMN hot). The thing is, I don't know how Cueball's device works, it looks like it absorbs temperature HERE so he can release it THERE. For all I know it absorbs whatever temperature, hot OR cold. If he absorbs in a winter freezing storm and releases in a heated room, it seems like the temperatures would combine to result in the destination being cooler (in that case), which is all I was saying. True, scientifically the only lack of heat is 0K. You seem too focused on numbers, like you think I'm focusing on numbers. I'm not, I'm focusing on heat/cold, independent of what scale is being used to measure. I'm only using the numbers to communicate. I'm not talking scientific terms, I'm talking reality/effectively. If you bring a source of cold into a warm environment, it will get less warm (and the cold thing will warm, the temperature will equalize). The thing is, does this heat pump magically find heat to absorb in a cold environment, or is it (I feel more logically) absorbing the ambient temperature, no matter what it is?
 ::::Also, in all my experience with XKCD, it seems Randall usually sticks with his current situation. His random musings generally are on timeless subjects (the previous comic on messing with music has nothing to do with season or American events at this time, for example). If he gets specific, it's about the time and events around him and the release date. Like, I'd be equally confused about this being a winter comic or by him doing an eclipse comic when there are none approaching or recently. There's usually a connection. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:09, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 :[edit conflict with the above reply, thus repetition, but as I was adding other stuff too...] It's fridge-logic! i.e., that's what fridges do... and if you're living in a cool climate, you can potentially heat your house above "too cold for indoors" temperatures by extracting heat from the "far too cold for indoors" air that is outside. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.96|162.158.74.96]] 09:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 :: I've always understood that fridges - refrigerators - applied refrigeration, as in applied cold to make it cold. Like keeping a powered ice cube in there. And the heat exuded out the back is a byproduct of all the power powering that cold takes. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)