Talk:2793: Garden Path Sentence - Revision history

172.71.30.16: RBG!

2024-08-13T19:37:17Z

RBG!

172.71.178.169: Undo revision 316745 by 172.69.134.70 (talk) You don't make it clear that you're the original author. Don't change others' comments, if you aren't.

2023-07-03T10:15:29Z

Undo revision 316745 by 172.69.134.70 (talk) You don't make it clear that you're the original author. Don't change others' comments, if you aren't.

172.69.134.70 at 00:12, 3 July 2023

2023-07-03T00:12:42Z

172.70.251.35 at 11:09, 1 July 2023

2023-07-01T11:09:39Z

172.70.86.154 at 15:30, 27 June 2023

2023-06-27T15:30:08Z

Davidhbrown: proper =?= unique

2023-06-27T14:22:14Z

proper =?= unique

Ahecht: re

2023-06-26T19:19:03Z

DanShock at 15:15, 26 June 2023

2023-06-26T15:15:13Z

CarLuva at 13:43, 26 June 2023

2023-06-26T13:43:13Z

172.68.50.161 at 07:29, 26 June 2023

2023-06-26T07:29:45Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:37, 13 August 2024
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	Newspaper headlines like that are fun. Best one so far: "Police stops speeding car with unsecured baby" [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.161\|172.68.50.161]] 07:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)		Newspaper headlines like that are fun. Best one so far: "Police stops speeding car with unsecured baby" [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.161\|172.68.50.161]] 07:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	The judge here looks like RBG! --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.30.16\|172.71.30.16]] 19:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@@ Line 56: / Line 56: @@
 :So you have to think (check that you're definitely going down the wrong parsing-route), backtrack, perhaps ponder if an 'obvious' syntax part way through might not have a different valid parsable interpretation. In the worst case scenario, though, you may find yourself having to start off (almost) from the beginning again, and having to try again making the original noun/verb interpretation differently. And trying not to get sidetracked by memories of what was 'so obvious' in the different original route of parsing the syntactical tree, but makes less sense during this approach. Unless it actually does make sense (unlikely as it might have been), and is now the valid (but obscure) parsing-route to the end that avoids ''yet another'' red herring sub-branch of understanding... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.154|172.70.86.154]] 15:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
-I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be read as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:
+I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be rea as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:
-:... '''bird''': a dinosaur; '''bird strikes''': multiple {{w|Bird strike|aviation incidents}}; '''strikes''': something or someone impacting a target;  '''strikes''': where an idea suddenly occurred to a person; '''strikes judge''': a justice of the peace who a) adjudicated, or b) took part in, {{w|industrial action}}; '''Judge Who''': a person's name/honorific; '''who ordered olive garden path''': a possible question; '''ordered Olive''': commanded someone called Olive to do something; '''olive garden''': an area for growing {{w|Olive|Olea Europaea}} shrubs; '''garden path''': a trail or access through an aesthetically-designed space of cultivation; '''garden path sentence''': <ibid>; '''sentence in case''': a ruling made following a legal hearing; '''in case of''': indicates a conditional statement''; ...
+:... '''bird''': a dinosaur; '''bird strikes''': multiple {{w|Bird strike|aviation icidents}}; '''strikes''': something or someone impacting a target;  '''strikes''': where an idea suddenly occured to a person; '''strikes judge''': a justice of the peace who a) adjudicated, or b) took part in, {{w|industrial action}}; '''Judge Who''': a person's name/honorific; '''who ordered olive garden path''': a possible question; '''ordered Olive''': commanded someone called Olive to do something; '''olive garden''': an area for growing {{w|Olive|Olea Europaea}} shrubs; '''garden path''': a trail or access through an aesthetically-designed space of cultivation; '''garden path sentence''': <ibid>; '''sentence in case''': a ruling made following a legal hearing; '''in case of''': indicates a conditional statement''; ...
-Here squashed together (and many omissions made, even within that sub-chain), just to get the idea together. Perhaps, in table form, indexed by "(OPTIONAL)FOO <one or more adjacent words> (OPTIONAL)BAR" with something like "the FOO <undergoes an action of> some BAR", and add a reference to each (<placing of start-word>.<number of words>(<optional alphabetic index to distinguish exact overlaps of different distinctions>?), then a valid complete sentence (or composite partial section) can be described like "1.1 2.1 3.2b 5.2 7.1 8.1 9.3c 12...", or any another variation that a reader might want to then summarise/expand with a "plain English"/unambiguous 'translation'. And all existing work/exposition can be folded into this in a more structured and less randomly-conversational manner. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47|162.158.74.47]] 19:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
+Here squashed together (and many omissions made, even within that sub-chain), just to get the idea together. Perhaps, in table form, indexed by "(OPTIONAL)FOO <one or more adjacent words> (OPTIONAL)BAR" with something like "the FOO <undergoes an action of> some BAR", and add a reference to each (<placing of start-word>.<number of words>(<optional alpabetic index to distinguish exact overlaps of different distinctions>?), then a valid complete sentence (or composite partial section) can be described like "1.1 2.1 3.2b 5.2 7.1 8.1 9.3c 12...", or any another variation that a reader might want to then summarise/expand with a "plain English"/unambiguous 'translation'. And all existing work/exposition can be folded into this in a more structured and less randomly-conversational manner. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47|162.158.74.47]] 19:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 Newspaper headlines like that are fun. Best one so far: "Police stops speeding car with unsecured baby" [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.161|172.68.50.161]] 07:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 56: / Line 56: @@
 :So you have to think (check that you're definitely going down the wrong parsing-route), backtrack, perhaps ponder if an 'obvious' syntax part way through might not have a different valid parsable interpretation. In the worst case scenario, though, you may find yourself having to start off (almost) from the beginning again, and having to try again making the original noun/verb interpretation differently. And trying not to get sidetracked by memories of what was 'so obvious' in the different original route of parsing the syntactical tree, but makes less sense during this approach. Unless it actually does make sense (unlikely as it might have been), and is now the valid (but obscure) parsing-route to the end that avoids ''yet another'' red herring sub-branch of understanding... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.154|172.70.86.154]] 15:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
-I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be rea as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:
+I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be read as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:
-:... '''bird''': a dinosaur; '''bird strikes''': multiple {{w|Bird strike|aviation icidents}}; '''strikes''': something or someone impacting a target;  '''strikes''': where an idea suddenly occured to a person; '''strikes judge''': a justice of the peace who a) adjudicated, or b) took part in, {{w|industrial action}}; '''Judge Who''': a person's name/honorific; '''who ordered olive garden path''': a possible question; '''ordered Olive''': commanded someone called Olive to do something; '''olive garden''': an area for growing {{w|Olive|Olea Europaea}} shrubs; '''garden path''': a trail or access through an aesthetically-designed space of cultivation; '''garden path sentence''': <ibid>; '''sentence in case''': a ruling made following a legal hearing; '''in case of''': indicates a conditional statement''; ...
+:... '''bird''': a dinosaur; '''bird strikes''': multiple {{w|Bird strike|aviation incidents}}; '''strikes''': something or someone impacting a target;  '''strikes''': where an idea suddenly occurred to a person; '''strikes judge''': a justice of the peace who a) adjudicated, or b) took part in, {{w|industrial action}}; '''Judge Who''': a person's name/honorific; '''who ordered olive garden path''': a possible question; '''ordered Olive''': commanded someone called Olive to do something; '''olive garden''': an area for growing {{w|Olive|Olea Europaea}} shrubs; '''garden path''': a trail or access through an aesthetically-designed space of cultivation; '''garden path sentence''': <ibid>; '''sentence in case''': a ruling made following a legal hearing; '''in case of''': indicates a conditional statement''; ...
-Here squashed together (and many omissions made, even within that sub-chain), just to get the idea together. Perhaps, in table form, indexed by "(OPTIONAL)FOO <one or more adjacent words> (OPTIONAL)BAR" with something like "the FOO <undergoes an action of> some BAR", and add a reference to each (<placing of start-word>.<number of words>(<optional alpabetic index to distinguish exact overlaps of different distinctions>?), then a valid complete sentence (or composite partial section) can be described like "1.1 2.1 3.2b 5.2 7.1 8.1 9.3c 12...", or any another variation that a reader might want to then summarise/expand with a "plain English"/unambiguous 'translation'. And all existing work/exposition can be folded into this in a more structured and less randomly-conversational manner. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47|162.158.74.47]] 19:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
+Here squashed together (and many omissions made, even within that sub-chain), just to get the idea together. Perhaps, in table form, indexed by "(OPTIONAL)FOO <one or more adjacent words> (OPTIONAL)BAR" with something like "the FOO <undergoes an action of> some BAR", and add a reference to each (<placing of start-word>.<number of words>(<optional alphabetic index to distinguish exact overlaps of different distinctions>?), then a valid complete sentence (or composite partial section) can be described like "1.1 2.1 3.2b 5.2 7.1 8.1 9.3c 12...", or any another variation that a reader might want to then summarise/expand with a "plain English"/unambiguous 'translation'. And all existing work/exposition can be folded into this in a more structured and less randomly-conversational manner. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47|162.158.74.47]] 19:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 Newspaper headlines like that are fun. Best one so far: "Police stops speeding car with unsecured baby" [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.161|172.68.50.161]] 07:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 I think the term "bird strikes" should be interpreted as a plural noun, given the two Xs on the map. Something like "After bird strikes, judge ... overturned but rights and lands safely" [[Special:Contributions/172.69.59.8|172.69.59.8]] 20:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 : Or it could be the bird strikes judge... You know, the one who was the judge in an important and well-known "bird strikes" case, possibly environmental, possibly an insurance scam case or something.[[User:Thisfox|Thisfox]] ([[User talk:Thisfox|talk]]) 21:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 I don't think the current interpretation is wrong, but "olive garden" could be the lower-case-when-not-a-comics-headline descriptor for, you know, an actual garden of olive trees. That makes more sense when referring to green walkways. [[User:Nitpicking|Nitpicking]] ([[User talk:Nitpicking|talk]]) 20:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 I'm usually the one seeking explanation here. All the discussion above is actually the funny part because Garden Path sentences can't be properly parsed!
 :The above unsigned comment may mislead. Garden path sentences ''can'' be parsed because they are syntactically correct. (Indeed, the point is that they allow multiple correct parsings and so give rise to multiple semantic interpretations some of which are humorously implausible.) Perhaps the commentator intended a specialized meaning of "proper" to mean something like "uniquely," but I was unable to find similar uses online. [[User:Davidhbrown|Davidhbrown]] ([[User talk:Davidhbrown|talk]]) 14:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be rea as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:22, 27 June 2023
Line 50:		Line 50:

	I'm usually the one seeking explanation here. All the discussion above is actually the funny part because Garden Path sentences can't be properly parsed!		I'm usually the one seeking explanation here. All the discussion above is actually the funny part because Garden Path sentences can't be properly parsed!
		+	:The above unsigned comment may mislead. Garden path sentences ''can'' be parsed because they are syntactically correct. (Indeed, the point is that they allow multiple correct parsings and so give rise to multiple semantic interpretations some of which are humorously implausible.) Perhaps the commentator intended a specialized meaning of "proper" to mean something like "uniquely," but I was unable to find similar uses online. [[User:Davidhbrown\|Davidhbrown]] ([[User talk:Davidhbrown\|talk]]) 14:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

	I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be rea as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:		I think a useful addition to all the "the whole sentence could be" ideas, which could subsume all the "this bit could be rea as...", would be to do a table or header-list of how each sequential chain of words might be interpreted. Such as:

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:19, 26 June 2023
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	::: As an American, I assumed exactly the same meaning for "green walkway". I see no reason to interpret "olive" as a color in this comic. The primary meaning of "olive garden path" is definitely a path within a garden where olives are grown. The idea of "olive" referring to the color green could be mentioned as a possible alternative explanation but should not be the primary one. [[User:CarLuva\|CarLuva]] ([[User talk:CarLuva\|talk]]) 13:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC)		::: As an American, I assumed exactly the same meaning for "green walkway". I see no reason to interpret "olive" as a color in this comic. The primary meaning of "olive garden path" is definitely a path within a garden where olives are grown. The idea of "olive" referring to the color green could be mentioned as a possible alternative explanation but should not be the primary one. [[User:CarLuva\|CarLuva]] ([[User talk:CarLuva\|talk]]) 13:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	::::You wouldn't grow olives in a garden, they'd be in an orchard or a grove. [[User:Ahecht\|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht\|talk]]) 19:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

	I still don't like "overturned but rights and lands" - why would the first verb be in the past tense and the others present tense, if they are describing events that happened within a very short time of each other? Wouldn't a headline be entirely in the present tense? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.102\|162.158.159.102]] 05:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)		I still don't like "overturned but rights and lands" - why would the first verb be in the past tense and the others present tense, if they are describing events that happened within a very short time of each other? Wouldn't a headline be entirely in the present tense? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.102\|162.158.159.102]] 05:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:15, 26 June 2023
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	: This bothers me as well, but I don't see a way around it. It's possible that the case was "the case of the green walkways vacated," but then we need a valid parsing of "After bird strikes judge who ordered sentence overturned but rights and lands safely." Failing that, I'm prepared to conclude that the mixed case is either an error or a deliberate fudging of the norm for the sake of making it more confusing. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.140\|172.71.147.140]] 18:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)		: This bothers me as well, but I don't see a way around it. It's possible that the case was "the case of the green walkways vacated," but then we need a valid parsing of "After bird strikes judge who ordered sentence overturned but rights and lands safely." Failing that, I'm prepared to conclude that the mixed case is either an error or a deliberate fudging of the norm for the sake of making it more confusing. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.140\|172.71.147.140]] 18:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	: I am convinced that "overturned" is referring to the case, and "vacated" is referring to the walkways. That keeps the verb tense for the pilot/judge consistent: "rights" and "lands". The judge ordered the "olive garden path" sentence be overturned in the "case of green walkways vacated". In other words, the walkways were vacated, which led to an "olive garden path sentence", and that sentence was overturned, and the judge/pilot "rights and lands" the plane safely. Verb tense is one of the few hints on how to parse something so convoluted, and there's no better argument I can see for the current interpretation above that applies "overturned" to the plane itself. So, the plane was not overturned, but did need to be righted. [[User:DanShock\|DanShock]] ([[User talk:DanShock\|talk]]) 15:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+

	This also suggests the plane was overturned by some external factor, rather than just overturning by itself.		This also suggests the plane was overturned by some external factor, rather than just overturning by itself.

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:43, 26 June 2023
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	:: I would interpret "green walkway" as meaning a picturesque walkway going through a forest, public gardens, or similar, which fits in with the olive trees. Searching for the term on Wikipedia suggests this expression is more commonly used in England than in the US. [[User:Hmj\|Hmj]] ([[User talk:Hmj\|talk]]) 05:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)		:: I would interpret "green walkway" as meaning a picturesque walkway going through a forest, public gardens, or similar, which fits in with the olive trees. Searching for the term on Wikipedia suggests this expression is more commonly used in England than in the US. [[User:Hmj\|Hmj]] ([[User talk:Hmj\|talk]]) 05:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	::: As an American, I assumed exactly the same meaning for "green walkway". I see no reason to interpret "olive" as a color in this comic. The primary meaning of "olive garden path" is definitely a path within a garden where olives are grown. The idea of "olive" referring to the color green could be mentioned as a possible alternative explanation but should not be the primary one. [[User:CarLuva\|CarLuva]] ([[User talk:CarLuva\|talk]]) 13:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

	I still don't like "overturned but rights and lands" - why would the first verb be in the past tense and the others present tense, if they are describing events that happened within a very short time of each other? Wouldn't a headline be entirely in the present tense? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.102\|162.158.159.102]] 05:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)		I still don't like "overturned but rights and lands" - why would the first verb be in the past tense and the others present tense, if they are describing events that happened within a very short time of each other? Wouldn't a headline be entirely in the present tense? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.159.102\|162.158.159.102]] 05:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:29, 26 June 2023
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	:... '''bird''': a dinosaur; '''bird strikes''': multiple {{w\|Bird strike\|aviation icidents}}; '''strikes''': something or someone impacting a target; '''strikes''': where an idea suddenly occured to a person; '''strikes judge''': a justice of the peace who a) adjudicated, or b) took part in, {{w\|industrial action}}; '''Judge Who''': a person's name/honorific; '''who ordered olive garden path''': a possible question; '''ordered Olive''': commanded someone called Olive to do something; '''olive garden''': an area for growing {{w\|Olive\|Olea Europaea}} shrubs; '''garden path''': a trail or access through an aesthetically-designed space of cultivation; '''garden path sentence''': <ibid>; '''sentence in case''': a ruling made following a legal hearing; '''in case of''': indicates a conditional statement''; ...		:... '''bird''': a dinosaur; '''bird strikes''': multiple {{w\|Bird strike\|aviation icidents}}; '''strikes''': something or someone impacting a target; '''strikes''': where an idea suddenly occured to a person; '''strikes judge''': a justice of the peace who a) adjudicated, or b) took part in, {{w\|industrial action}}; '''Judge Who''': a person's name/honorific; '''who ordered olive garden path''': a possible question; '''ordered Olive''': commanded someone called Olive to do something; '''olive garden''': an area for growing {{w\|Olive\|Olea Europaea}} shrubs; '''garden path''': a trail or access through an aesthetically-designed space of cultivation; '''garden path sentence''': <ibid>; '''sentence in case''': a ruling made following a legal hearing; '''in case of''': indicates a conditional statement''; ...
	Here squashed together (and many omissions made, even within that sub-chain), just to get the idea together. Perhaps, in table form, indexed by "(OPTIONAL)FOO <one or more adjacent words> (OPTIONAL)BAR" with something like "the FOO <undergoes an action of> some BAR", and add a reference to each (<placing of start-word>.<number of words>(<optional alpabetic index to distinguish exact overlaps of different distinctions>?), then a valid complete sentence (or composite partial section) can be described like "1.1 2.1 3.2b 5.2 7.1 8.1 9.3c 12...", or any another variation that a reader might want to then summarise/expand with a "plain English"/unambiguous 'translation'. And all existing work/exposition can be folded into this in a more structured and less randomly-conversational manner. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47\|162.158.74.47]] 19:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)		Here squashed together (and many omissions made, even within that sub-chain), just to get the idea together. Perhaps, in table form, indexed by "(OPTIONAL)FOO <one or more adjacent words> (OPTIONAL)BAR" with something like "the FOO <undergoes an action of> some BAR", and add a reference to each (<placing of start-word>.<number of words>(<optional alpabetic index to distinguish exact overlaps of different distinctions>?), then a valid complete sentence (or composite partial section) can be described like "1.1 2.1 3.2b 5.2 7.1 8.1 9.3c 12...", or any another variation that a reader might want to then summarise/expand with a "plain English"/unambiguous 'translation'. And all existing work/exposition can be folded into this in a more structured and less randomly-conversational manner. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.47\|162.158.74.47]] 19:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	Newspaper headlines like that are fun. Best one so far: "Police stops speeding car with unsecured baby" [[Special:Contributions/172.68.50.161\|172.68.50.161]] 07:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)