Talk:2899: Goodhart's Law - Revision history

Laser813: /* Need to remove some text */

2024-02-29T15:48:12Z

‎Need to remove some text

Hkmaly at 15:26, 29 February 2024

2024-02-29T15:26:35Z

Hkmaly: /* Need to remove some text */

2024-02-29T15:24:00Z

‎Need to remove some text

DKMell: suggest removing excess content

2024-02-29T04:09:37Z

suggest removing excess content

172.70.42.150 at 00:05, 29 February 2024

2024-02-29T00:05:33Z

Moderator at 23:19, 28 February 2024

2024-02-28T23:19:56Z

172.70.85.27 at 12:49, 28 February 2024

2024-02-28T12:49:58Z

Moderator at 12:30, 28 February 2024

2024-02-28T12:30:31Z

Yorkshire Pudding at 22:47, 27 February 2024

2024-02-27T22:47:41Z

Rtanenbaum at 21:08, 27 February 2024

2024-02-27T21:08:55Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:48, 29 February 2024
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	The whole section from the headline "Discussion of the promises and perils of operational measurement" up to the transcript should be eliminated. This page is supposed to be an explanation of a comic, not an exposition on operational management! If such an exposition is really needed (IMO it's not, but there's room for disagreement), please just put in a link to one, don't copy it here. [[User:DKMell\|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell\|talk]]) 04:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)		The whole section from the headline "Discussion of the promises and perils of operational measurement" up to the transcript should be eliminated. This page is supposed to be an explanation of a comic, not an exposition on operational management! If such an exposition is really needed (IMO it's not, but there's room for disagreement), please just put in a link to one, don't copy it here. [[User:DKMell\|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell\|talk]]) 04:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
	:Disagree. It's helpful. Besides, what about the metrics of explanation length? -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 15:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)		:Disagree. It's helpful. Besides, what about the metrics of explanation length? -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 15:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
		+	:Also disagree, though if you think it's long-winded, I endorse editing for brevity. [[User:Laser813\|Laser813]] ([[User talk:Laser813\|talk]]) 15:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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 In early days of computer programming managers tried to assess the performance of programmers in a way that they would assess the performance of assembly line workers and decided to use the metric of "lines of code per day". The results were laughable. There was also the, possibly apocryphal, story from the old Soviet Union where the government rewarded automobile plants for meeting certain quotas for number of cars produced, and rewarded scrap metal facilities for meeting certain quotas for number of cars demolished, and it wasn't long before the facilities figured out that delivering the cars of dubious value straight to junk yards was the most efficient and rewarding way to operate. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 21:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 ==== Need to remove some text ====
 The whole section from the headline "Discussion of the promises and perils of operational measurement" up to the transcript should be eliminated. This page is supposed to be an explanation of a comic, not an exposition on operational management! If such an exposition is really needed (IMO it's not, but there's room for disagreement), please just put in a link to one, don't copy it here. [[User:DKMell|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell|talk]]) 04:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 :Disagree. It's helpful. Besides, what about the metrics of explanation length? -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 15:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:24, 29 February 2024
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	==== Need to remove some text ====		==== Need to remove some text ====
	The whole section from the headline "Discussion of the promises and perils of operational measurement" up to the transcript should be eliminated. This page is supposed to be an explanation of a comic, not an exposition on operational management! If such an exposition is really needed (IMO it's not, but there's room for disagreement), please just put in a link to one, don't copy it here. [[User:DKMell\|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell\|talk]]) 04:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)		The whole section from the headline "Discussion of the promises and perils of operational measurement" up to the transcript should be eliminated. This page is supposed to be an explanation of a comic, not an exposition on operational management! If such an exposition is really needed (IMO it's not, but there's room for disagreement), please just put in a link to one, don't copy it here. [[User:DKMell\|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell\|talk]]) 04:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
		+	:Disagree. It's helpful. Besides, what about the metrics of explanation length? -- [[User:Hkmaly\|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly\|talk]]) 15:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:09, 29 February 2024
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	In early days of computer programming managers tried to assess the performance of programmers in a way that they would assess the performance of assembly line workers and decided to use the metric of "lines of code per day". The results were laughable. There was also the, possibly apocryphal, story from the old Soviet Union where the government rewarded automobile plants for meeting certain quotas for number of cars produced, and rewarded scrap metal facilities for meeting certain quotas for number of cars demolished, and it wasn't long before the facilities figured out that delivering the cars of dubious value straight to junk yards was the most efficient and rewarding way to operate. [[User:Rtanenbaum\|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum\|talk]]) 21:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)		In early days of computer programming managers tried to assess the performance of programmers in a way that they would assess the performance of assembly line workers and decided to use the metric of "lines of code per day". The results were laughable. There was also the, possibly apocryphal, story from the old Soviet Union where the government rewarded automobile plants for meeting certain quotas for number of cars produced, and rewarded scrap metal facilities for meeting certain quotas for number of cars demolished, and it wasn't long before the facilities figured out that delivering the cars of dubious value straight to junk yards was the most efficient and rewarding way to operate. [[User:Rtanenbaum\|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum\|talk]]) 21:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
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		+	==== Need to remove some text ====
		+	The whole section from the headline "Discussion of the promises and perils of operational measurement" up to the transcript should be eliminated. This page is supposed to be an explanation of a comic, not an exposition on operational management! If such an exposition is really needed (IMO it's not, but there's room for disagreement), please just put in a link to one, don't copy it here. [[User:DKMell\|DKMell]] ([[User talk:DKMell\|talk]]) 04:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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 ::Exactly. It can be incredibly mundane things - a store I worked in encouraged the inclusion of accessories with main purchases, obviously, but also used to discourage us from selling accessories if customers remembered as they were leaving, after the main sale. If we "allowed" it, the Average Transaction Value and Items Per Basket indicators would both be down. Same stuff being sold, but if it was sold separately from the thing it supplemented, that was a bad thing.
 ::It can also be much bigger, more important things - good figures for DEI targets doesn't necessarily mean attitudes towards people from traditionally disadvantaged demographics have improved, it just means firms have been told to employ more of them. If somebody is given a leg up but you only measure how many are sitting up high...how do you tell if the need for a leg up is lessening? And are you really combating the wider need for legups to be given if you keep giving them to ensure targets are met? What's the incentive for improving the big picture if the obsession is with improving a few small details? [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 22:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 In early days of computer programming managers tried to assess the performance of programmers in a way that they would assess the performance of assembly line workers and decided to use the metric of "lines of code per day". The results were laughable. There was also the, possibly apocryphal, story from the old Soviet Union where the government rewarded automobile plants for meeting certain quotas for number of cars produced, and rewarded scrap metal facilities for meeting certain quotas for number of cars demolished, and it wasn't long before the facilities figured out that delivering the cars of dubious value straight to junk yards was the most efficient and rewarding way to operate. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 21:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

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 ::[[User:Moderator|Moderator]] ([[User talk:Moderator|talk]]) 12:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC) [[User:Moderator|Moderator]] ([[User talk:Moderator|talk]]) 12:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC) [[User:Moderator|Moderator]] ([[User talk:Moderator|talk]]) 12:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 :::Yep, got it. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.27|172.70.85.27]] 12:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 The main problem with metrics is that there can be too many (everything is a metric, you're chasing targets even if just trying to be the most average and not to be an outlier) or there are too few (everything is 'boiled down' to a single figure of 'success', with no nuance available to work out ''why'' it's marked as "good" rather than "excellant ). Or both at the same time! That said, I think changing a target-system to be a less-worse-target-system is often the worst of all worlds, as every meaningful measure is changed, and/or the means to measure them are changed, all this impinging upon the actual job of work that was actually always supposed to be done, regardless... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.165|172.70.91.165]] 04:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

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 :Either that or they messed up/have other machinations in mind. But I just thought I'd 'dissect the frog' for future readers. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.165|172.70.91.165]] 04:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 ::[[User:Moderator|Moderator]] ([[User talk:Moderator|talk]]) 12:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC) [[User:Moderator|Moderator]] ([[User talk:Moderator|talk]]) 12:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC) [[User:Moderator|Moderator]] ([[User talk:Moderator|talk]]) 12:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 The main problem with metrics is that there can be too many (everything is a metric, you're chasing targets even if just trying to be the most average and not to be an outlier) or there are too few (everything is 'boiled down' to a single figure of 'success', with no nuance available to work out ''why'' it's marked as "good" rather than "excellant ). Or both at the same time! That said, I think changing a target-system to be a less-worse-target-system is often the worst of all worlds, as every meaningful measure is changed, and/or the means to measure them are changed, all this impinging upon the actual job of work that was actually always supposed to be done, regardless... [[Special:Contributions/172.70.91.165|172.70.91.165]] 04:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 : Probably the worst metric/target is the perpetual growth delusion. Your office furniture sales figures are down fifteen percent from this month last year. Nevermind that they were up three thousand percent last year because your biggest customer had to replace the furniture lost in a fire. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.26.16|172.71.26.16]] 06:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

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 :Yes, and no. Metrics in and of themselves have a psychological power and tend to direct attention, and therefore action, to the things being measured. So good incentive design (and other psychological framing) is then needed to counteract that biasing effect.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.28|172.70.90.28]] 14:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 :The issue comes in the moment the incentive is to "improve the metric" rather than "improve the thing the metric is intended to indicate." For example, there's the Hot Waitress Economic Index, whereby the sexier the average waitress, the worse the economy is doing (as attractive women usually have no problem getting jobs in sales when the economy is doing well). If someone comes up with the brilliant idea of fixing the economy by recruiting more unattractive waitresses, the metric no longer measures the thing it is supposed to at all. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.49|172.69.247.49]] 18:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 In early days of computer programming managers tried to assess the performance of programmers in a way that they would assess the performance of assembly line workers and decided to use the metric of "lines of code per day". The results were laughable. There was also the, possibly apocryphal, story from the old Soviet Union where the government rewarded automobile plants for meeting certain quotas for number of cars produced, and rewarded scrap metal facilities for meeting certain quotas for number of cars demolished, and it wasn't long before the facilities figured out that delivering the cars of dubious value straight to junk yards was the most efficient and rewarding way to operate. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 21:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:08, 27 February 2024
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	:Yes, and no. Metrics in and of themselves have a psychological power and tend to direct attention, and therefore action, to the things being measured. So good incentive design (and other psychological framing) is then needed to counteract that biasing effect.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.28\|172.70.90.28]] 14:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)		:Yes, and no. Metrics in and of themselves have a psychological power and tend to direct attention, and therefore action, to the things being measured. So good incentive design (and other psychological framing) is then needed to counteract that biasing effect.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.28\|172.70.90.28]] 14:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
	:The issue comes in the moment the incentive is to "improve the metric" rather than "improve the thing the metric is intended to indicate." For example, there's the Hot Waitress Economic Index, whereby the sexier the average waitress, the worse the economy is doing (as attractive women usually have no problem getting jobs in sales when the economy is doing well). If someone comes up with the brilliant idea of fixing the economy by recruiting more unattractive waitresses, the metric no longer measures the thing it is supposed to at all. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.49\|172.69.247.49]] 18:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)		:The issue comes in the moment the incentive is to "improve the metric" rather than "improve the thing the metric is intended to indicate." For example, there's the Hot Waitress Economic Index, whereby the sexier the average waitress, the worse the economy is doing (as attractive women usually have no problem getting jobs in sales when the economy is doing well). If someone comes up with the brilliant idea of fixing the economy by recruiting more unattractive waitresses, the metric no longer measures the thing it is supposed to at all. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.49\|172.69.247.49]] 18:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
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		+	In early days of computer programming managers tried to assess the performance of programmers in a way that they would assess the performance of assembly line workers and decided to use the metric of "lines of code per day". The results were laughable. There was also the, possibly apocryphal, story from the old Soviet Union where the government rewarded automobile plants for meeting certain quotas for number of cars produced, and rewarded scrap metal facilities for meeting certain quotas for number of cars demolished, and it wasn't long before the facilities figured out that delivering the cars of dubious value straight to junk yards was the most efficient and rewarding way to operate. [[User:Rtanenbaum\|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum\|talk]]) 21:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)