Talk:2948: Electric vs Gas - Revision history

82.132.239.130 at 03:47, 30 March 2026

2026-03-30T03:47:48Z

172.68.205.164 at 22:50, 21 April 2025

2025-04-21T22:50:04Z

172.70.254.210 at 22:32, 21 April 2025

2025-04-21T22:32:01Z

172.69.195.184 at 22:00, 20 July 2024

2024-07-20T22:00:41Z

172.70.162.186 at 18:32, 20 July 2024

2024-07-20T18:32:16Z

172.70.91.231 at 22:53, 25 June 2024

2024-06-25T22:53:30Z

172.70.174.241 at 18:48, 25 June 2024

2024-06-25T18:48:06Z

172.70.174.79 at 18:29, 25 June 2024

2024-06-25T18:29:42Z

Elektrizikekswerk: /* Friendly Reminder */

2024-06-25T07:17:55Z

‎Friendly Reminder

Elektrizikekswerk: /* Friendly Reminder */

2024-06-25T07:17:11Z

‎Friendly Reminder

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 Do you suppose it's coincidence that this comic came out just six days after Will Prowse (DIY Solar Power youtube channel) put out an opinion video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkabBP85e2I] on EVs?[[Special:Contributions/172.69.22.220|172.69.22.220]] 08:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
-== Friendly Reminder ==
+;Friendly Reminder
 I'd like to remind everyone here that we want to explain _the comic_ and NOT the pros and cons of EV vs ICE. I'll admit the explaining the points White Hat is making might be in order, anything below that is not necessary for explaining _the comic_. Also, the comic is, as others already pointed out, about engines and NOT about vehicles in general or cars in particular. The etymology of gas(oline), albeit already in trivia, is entirely irrelevant here. As are sales statistics for bikes. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 10:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 :Given the "oh, this isn't electric vs gas ''cookers''" comment, it's probably good to explain that it's gasoline ''fuel'', not natural gas (ethane, mostly)/propane/whatever. I don't know how Leftpondians swerve the confusion between the productand the general state of matter (there'll be times when context ''doesn't'' make it abundantly clear, I imagine), and for the sake of the English speaking world who might not yet have have an internal autotranslate  between Amercanized terms and Anglicised ones, it seems like someone thought it was useful. As for the etymology, I always understood it as being originally '''gas'''-''condensate'' (i.e. heavier molecules, falling out of suspension) of cyclic organic compounds ('''-ole'''s, though not necessarily as in strictly "azole"-like) with a fuzzy final suffix ('''{{wiktionary|-ine}}''' ) that might be either a commercial, nominatve ''or'' chemical-name rooted tack-on. Given that gasoline isn't gaseous (or really shouldn't be, to any great degree, during most relevent handling/storing!) I think naming it after its fumes (not exactly obvious, not compared with things like bromine) sounds like a stretch.

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 ::Plug-in hybrids have been superior since 1904, but the incremental capital cost is still an issue while oil is under $100/bbl. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.150.129|172.71.150.129]] 19:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 ::A litre of gasoline provides 31.5MJ of energy, and in the US a pump transfers 38 litres (10 USgal) per minute, or 0.633 litres per second. That's an energy throughput of 31.5MJ/l x 0.633 l/s = 19.95MW. And US gasoline pumps are, by law, slow. In the civilised world, petrol pumps can deliver 30% more (50l/minute). Hi-flow diesel pumps used to fill trucks and buses are much faster - between 80 and 120 litres per minute. 120 litres per minute of diesel fuel is an energy transfer rate of about 76MW. By comparison, the fastest 3-phase AC chargers for the Tesla model 3 charge at 11kW; Pumping gas is about 2,000 times faster at getting energy into a car than this. The fastest single phase chargers are 7.4kW; While a standard wall socket charger can manage a paltry 2.3kW, (around a ten-thousandth of the energy transfer rate of a gas pump). The "super" DC charging stations achieve an "impressive" 250kW, making pumping gas at a regular gas station about eighty times faster than using one of these. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.64.207|172.68.64.207]] 07:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
-:::The US is the civilized world, and is superior to all other nations in all ways.
+:::The US is the civilized world, and is superior to all other nations in all ways. {{unsigned ip|172.70.254.210|22:32, 21 April 2025}}
 : Except of course that this isn't quite as simple as this.  A Honda Civic (one the most popular US petrol cars) will go about 400 miles on a full tank, about the same as a Dodge Ram.  Also about the same as a Tesla Model S.  There's a pretty good reason this isn't a coincidence - people don't want more much more range, and a bigger tank is more weight.  A Chevy Silverado full tank will go about 500miles.  If you really want range, you need to look at a hybrid car.  As the comic points out, the torque on a standard otto cycle engine is poor, but that cycle is deliberately designed to give more torque.  Hybrids use an Atkinson cycle which is far more energy efficient, but could not provide enough torque - so you use the electric to do that.  A Prius has a range in excess of 630 miles, more than any popular petrol car.  So if you want range, you still want an electric engine, just store the energy in hydrocarbons.  For similar reasons, diesel trains use the diesel to run generators which then power the electric motors on the wheels, and have done for decades. {{unsigned ip|172.70.162.186|20:47, 19 June 2024}}
 :: Which brings us back to energy density: The Honda Civic has a similar range to the Tesla – at 10% the weight for its fuel (vs. the Tesla's battery), and one-third the volume. The comparison gets even worse for long-haul cargo, but that might be beyond the topic of this conversation. --[[User:Coconut Galaxy|Coconut Galaxy]] ([[User talk:Coconut Galaxy|talk]]) 13:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 ::Plug-in hybrids have been superior since 1904, but the incremental capital cost is still an issue while oil is under $100/bbl. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.150.129|172.71.150.129]] 19:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 ::A litre of gasoline provides 31.5MJ of energy, and in the US a pump transfers 38 litres (10 USgal) per minute, or 0.633 litres per second. That's an energy throughput of 31.5MJ/l x 0.633 l/s = 19.95MW. And US gasoline pumps are, by law, slow. In the civilised world, petrol pumps can deliver 30% more (50l/minute). Hi-flow diesel pumps used to fill trucks and buses are much faster - between 80 and 120 litres per minute. 120 litres per minute of diesel fuel is an energy transfer rate of about 76MW. By comparison, the fastest 3-phase AC chargers for the Tesla model 3 charge at 11kW; Pumping gas is about 2,000 times faster at getting energy into a car than this. The fastest single phase chargers are 7.4kW; While a standard wall socket charger can manage a paltry 2.3kW, (around a ten-thousandth of the energy transfer rate of a gas pump). The "super" DC charging stations achieve an "impressive" 250kW, making pumping gas at a regular gas station about eighty times faster than using one of these. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.64.207|172.68.64.207]] 07:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 : Except of course that this isn't quite as simple as this.  A Honda Civic (one the most popular US petrol cars) will go about 400 miles on a full tank, about the same as a Dodge Ram.  Also about the same as a Tesla Model S.  There's a pretty good reason this isn't a coincidence - people don't want more much more range, and a bigger tank is more weight.  A Chevy Silverado full tank will go about 500miles.  If you really want range, you need to look at a hybrid car.  As the comic points out, the torque on a standard otto cycle engine is poor, but that cycle is deliberately designed to give more torque.  Hybrids use an Atkinson cycle which is far more energy efficient, but could not provide enough torque - so you use the electric to do that.  A Prius has a range in excess of 630 miles, more than any popular petrol car.  So if you want range, you still want an electric engine, just store the energy in hydrocarbons.  For similar reasons, diesel trains use the diesel to run generators which then power the electric motors on the wheels, and have done for decades. {{unsigned ip|172.70.162.186|20:47, 19 June 2024}}
 :: Which brings us back to energy density: The Honda Civic has a similar range to the Tesla – at 10% the weight for its fuel (vs. the Tesla's battery), and one-third the volume. The comparison gets even worse for long-haul cargo, but that might be beyond the topic of this conversation. --[[User:Coconut Galaxy|Coconut Galaxy]] ([[User talk:Coconut Galaxy|talk]]) 13:06, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:00, 20 July 2024
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	The joke is that White Hat says that A and B ''each'' have their pros and cons; he then lists ''only'' the pros of one of the options and none of the cons of either. His final line is thus completely correct: it's hard (impossible) to compare two things when you only have the plus points of one of them.		The joke is that White Hat says that A and B ''each'' have their pros and cons; he then lists ''only'' the pros of one of the options and none of the cons of either. His final line is thus completely correct: it's hard (impossible) to compare two things when you only have the plus points of one of them.

−	The explanation for the title text goes off on an irrelevant tangent. An internal combustion engine has ''zero'' torque at standstill (remember we're talking about the engine here, not a car). Which means that the engine must idle (run without providing power to anything) before you use it to drive, producing noise even though it's not doing anything useful. An electric motor does not have this limitation, which is why electric motors are used to start gasoline engines.	+	The explanation for the title text goes off on an irrelevant tangent. An internal combustion engine has ''zero'' torque at standstill (remember we're talking about the engine here, not a car). Which means that the engine must idle (run without providing power to anything) before you use it to drive, producing noise even though it's not doing anything useful. An electric motor does not have this limitation, which is why electric motors are used to start gasoline engines. {{unsigned ip\|172.70.162.186\|18:32, 20 July 2024}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:32, 20 July 2024
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	::I could tell you the whole tale of a particular confusion between "gas and air" (the breathable mix used to numb the pains of childbirth) and "gas and air" (two things available to top up vehicles at a roadside facility) and how, for the longest time, the teller and the listener were on completely different pages of the reciting of a mad dash taking the teller's wife to the hospital when her waters broke... But it wouldn't do justice to the actual experience of seeing the misunderstandings roll out. We'd heard the tale already, and weren't chipping in, meaning we could pick up on the confusion of the newest listener. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.99\|172.70.90.99]] 20:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)		::I could tell you the whole tale of a particular confusion between "gas and air" (the breathable mix used to numb the pains of childbirth) and "gas and air" (two things available to top up vehicles at a roadside facility) and how, for the longest time, the teller and the listener were on completely different pages of the reciting of a mad dash taking the teller's wife to the hospital when her waters broke... But it wouldn't do justice to the actual experience of seeing the misunderstandings roll out. We'd heard the tale already, and weren't chipping in, meaning we could pick up on the confusion of the newest listener. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.99\|172.70.90.99]] 20:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Frankly, I don't want to offend anyone here but the very first words in the comic after the title are "electric ''motors'' and gas ''engines''". We cannot teach basic reading skills here. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk\|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk\|talk]]) 07:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)		::Frankly, I don't want to offend anyone here but the very first words in the comic after the title are "electric ''motors'' and gas ''engines''". We cannot teach basic reading skills here. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk\|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk\|talk]]) 07:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	I completely agree that the explanation should be cut down substantially. Most is unsubstantiated opinion and not related to the comic at all.
		+
		+	The joke is that White Hat says that A and B ''each'' have their pros and cons; he then lists ''only'' the pros of one of the options and none of the cons of either. His final line is thus completely correct: it's hard (impossible) to compare two things when you only have the plus points of one of them.
		+
		+	The explanation for the title text goes off on an irrelevant tangent. An internal combustion engine has ''zero'' torque at standstill (remember we're talking about the engine here, not a car). Which means that the engine must idle (run without providing power to anything) before you use it to drive, producing noise even though it's not doing anything useful. An electric motor does not have this limitation, which is why electric motors are used to start gasoline engines.

@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 : The tagline for the xkcd comic does include the word "sarcasm", which should warn against over-serious or over-literal interpretations. Not infrequently, I find, xkcd ventures into the realm of the sarcastic, the opinionated, even the polemic (cf. the Hilary Clinton campaign ads), and this one states a clear opinion in favor of electric cars ... with which one is free to debate (as here, exhaustively), or disagree. All of which brings the cartoonist to the attention of the world, and thereby supports him in his chosen line of work, which, in the current state of cartooning as a profession, is no small accomplishment. As for the opinion, consider the following question: "I have a four-mile commute to work. Which is the most eco-friendly option? The electric car? The hybrid? The gas/petrol car?" Answer: the foot car. Walking the four miles is the only minimum-carbon solution under all circumstances ... except perhaps ones that allow the questioner to keep deir job. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.4|108.162.245.4]] 05:39, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 :: I would suggest that the foot car is *not* the minimum carbon solution in all circumstances.  Riding a road bike at about 10 mph, you'll travel a mile in 6 minutes, and burn about 20 calories.  Assuming a basal metabolic rate of 80 calories per hour, that's 8 calories in those six minutes, and 12 calories burned for the exercise.  Walking at 3 mph, you'll travel a mile in 20 minutes, and burn about 100 calories.  That's about 25 calories of basal consumption, and 75 calories due to the exercise.  So the "foot car" is 6 times more carbon than the bike, assuming you already have a bike.  You can talk about wear and tear on the bike components, but you also have wear and tear on your shoes; I don't know exactly how that shakes out, but I'd be surprised if the bike doesn't win in the end. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.174.241|172.70.174.241]] 18:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 Ohhh... OK. I had poor signal so this one took a while to load, and I only saw the "Gas vs. Electric" title. I thought it was going to be about kitchen stoves - ones that burn ''actual'' "gas", vs. electrical heating elements. [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 19:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@@ Line 96: / Line 96: @@
 :But being entirely a tradename (or corruption/mutation of one) covers a multitude of possibilities. Because tradename-namers aren't known for their strict logic in putting together technobabble phonemes to 'sound good', whilst buffing up (or sneaking in) whatever key surname/etc is investing in the product's retail. So long as kt sounds good/sounds a bit like various competitor names and yet doesn't sound ''so'' much like another product as to cause 'problems' (legal or commercial, depending upon what's the biggest issue). [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.227|172.69.43.227]] 13:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 ::I could tell you the whole tale of a particular confusion between "gas and air" (the breathable mix used to numb the pains of childbirth) and "gas and air" (two things available to top up vehicles at a roadside facility) and how, for the longest time, the teller and the listener were on completely different pages of the reciting of a mad dash taking the teller's wife to the hospital when her waters broke... But it wouldn't do justice to the actual experience of seeing the misunderstandings roll out. We'd heard the tale already, and weren't chipping in, meaning we could pick up on the confusion of the newest listener. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.99|172.70.90.99]] 20:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
-::Frankly, I don't want to offend anyone here but the very first words in the comic after the title are "electric motors".  We cannot teach basic reading skills here. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 07:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
+::Frankly, I don't want to offend anyone here but the very first words in the comic after the title are "electric ''motors'' and gas ''engines''".  We cannot teach basic reading skills here. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 07:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:17, 25 June 2024
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	:But being entirely a tradename (or corruption/mutation of one) covers a multitude of possibilities. Because tradename-namers aren't known for their strict logic in putting together technobabble phonemes to 'sound good', whilst buffing up (or sneaking in) whatever key surname/etc is investing in the product's retail. So long as kt sounds good/sounds a bit like various competitor names and yet doesn't sound ''so'' much like another product as to cause 'problems' (legal or commercial, depending upon what's the biggest issue). [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.227\|172.69.43.227]] 13:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)		:But being entirely a tradename (or corruption/mutation of one) covers a multitude of possibilities. Because tradename-namers aren't known for their strict logic in putting together technobabble phonemes to 'sound good', whilst buffing up (or sneaking in) whatever key surname/etc is investing in the product's retail. So long as kt sounds good/sounds a bit like various competitor names and yet doesn't sound ''so'' much like another product as to cause 'problems' (legal or commercial, depending upon what's the biggest issue). [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.227\|172.69.43.227]] 13:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I could tell you the whole tale of a particular confusion between "gas and air" (the breathable mix used to numb the pains of childbirth) and "gas and air" (two things available to top up vehicles at a roadside facility) and how, for the longest time, the teller and the listener were on completely different pages of the reciting of a mad dash taking the teller's wife to the hospital when her waters broke... But it wouldn't do justice to the actual experience of seeing the misunderstandings roll out. We'd heard the tale already, and weren't chipping in, meaning we could pick up on the confusion of the newest listener. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.99\|172.70.90.99]] 20:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)		::I could tell you the whole tale of a particular confusion between "gas and air" (the breathable mix used to numb the pains of childbirth) and "gas and air" (two things available to top up vehicles at a roadside facility) and how, for the longest time, the teller and the listener were on completely different pages of the reciting of a mad dash taking the teller's wife to the hospital when her waters broke... But it wouldn't do justice to the actual experience of seeing the misunderstandings roll out. We'd heard the tale already, and weren't chipping in, meaning we could pick up on the confusion of the newest listener. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.99\|172.70.90.99]] 20:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
		+	::Frankly, I don't want to offend anyone here but the very first words in the comic after the title are "electric motors". We cannot teach basic reading skills here. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk\|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk\|talk]]) 07:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)