Talk:3089: Modern - Revision history

92.17.62.87 at 20:56, 1 September 2025

2025-09-01T20:56:16Z

66.25.142.23: PREMODERN

2025-09-01T20:09:11Z

PREMODERN

StapleFreeBatteries at 03:06, 3 June 2025

2025-06-03T03:06:15Z

Mr. I at 20:25, 22 May 2025

2025-05-22T20:25:46Z

172.70.91.29 at 08:25, 19 May 2025

2025-05-19T08:25:34Z

172.71.178.79 at 08:24, 19 May 2025

2025-05-19T08:24:22Z

172.70.90.199: wrong 'not four tildes'... ;)

2025-05-16T17:40:27Z

wrong 'not four tildes'... ;)

172.70.90.198 at 17:38, 16 May 2025

2025-05-16T17:38:57Z

RegularSizedGuy at 16:12, 16 May 2025

2025-05-16T16:12:29Z

RegularSizedGuy at 16:09, 16 May 2025

2025-05-16T16:09:29Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:56, 1 September 2025
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	Too bad PREMODERN wasn't added following POSTMODERN and MODERN. [[Special:Contributions/66.25.142.23\|66.25.142.23]] 20:09, 1 September 2025 (UTC)		Too bad PREMODERN wasn't added following POSTMODERN and MODERN. [[Special:Contributions/66.25.142.23\|66.25.142.23]] 20:09, 1 September 2025 (UTC)
		+	:How about Paramodern, Allomodern, Pseudomodern, Simulmodern and Fauxmodern? [[Special:Contributions/92.17.62.87\|92.17.62.87]] 20:56, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:09, 1 September 2025
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	I remember one of my English teachers referred to a certain 4th-wall break in a Shakespeare play as "proto-postmodernism".		I remember one of my English teachers referred to a certain 4th-wall break in a Shakespeare play as "proto-postmodernism".
	[[User:StapleFreeBatteries\|StapleFreeBatteries]] ([[User talk:StapleFreeBatteries\|talk]]) 03:06, 3 June 2025 (UTC)		[[User:StapleFreeBatteries\|StapleFreeBatteries]] ([[User talk:StapleFreeBatteries\|talk]]) 03:06, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
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		+	Too bad PREMODERN wasn't added following POSTMODERN and MODERN. [[Special:Contributions/66.25.142.23\|66.25.142.23]] 20:09, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:06, 3 June 2025
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	Who can ever forget the Star Trek Next Generation episode, "A Fistful of Datas", where they ran the holodeck program on the "Ancient West"? [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 20:25, 22 May 2025 (UTC)		Who can ever forget the Star Trek Next Generation episode, "A Fistful of Datas", where they ran the holodeck program on the "Ancient West"? [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 20:25, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	I remember one of my English teachers referred to a certain 4th-wall break in a Shakespeare play as "proto-postmodernism".
		+	[[User:StapleFreeBatteries\|StapleFreeBatteries]] ([[User talk:StapleFreeBatteries\|talk]]) 03:06, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:25, 22 May 2025
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	According to the nGram viewer, modern peaked in 1928, continued relatively strongly until 1955, then fell off a cliff for the next four decades or so. I blame Marty McFly. [[User:RegularSizedGuy\|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy\|talk]]) 16:12, 16 May 2025 (UTC)		According to the nGram viewer, modern peaked in 1928, continued relatively strongly until 1955, then fell off a cliff for the next four decades or so. I blame Marty McFly. [[User:RegularSizedGuy\|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy\|talk]]) 16:12, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
	:Don't we all! -- B1FF 17:40, 16 May 2025 (UTC)		:Don't we all! -- B1FF 17:40, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	Who can ever forget the Star Trek Next Generation episode, "A Fistful of Datas", where they ran the holodeck program on the "Ancient West"? [[User:Mr. I\|Mr. I]] ([[User talk:Mr. I\|talk]]) 20:25, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 ::: Hopefully I'm not the only one that sees NRSV and instinctively think it's an unmanned submersible of some kind. [[User:RegularSizedGuy|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy|talk]]) 16:09, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
 :::: Not unmanned, no. Personally, it's ''{{w|seaQuest DSV|seaQuest NRSV}}''... ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.198|172.70.90.198]] 17:38, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
 :The US Military has a similar problem: naming a system "Next-Gen [X]" but then the "Next Gen" item eventually becomes the current generation, and is eventually moving towards being obsolete and you need a successor (next-next gen?).[[Special:Contributions/172.69.6.111|172.69.6.111]] 20:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
 ::I guess the phone companies got it right with the 3G, 4G, 5G naming. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 20:23, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
@@ Line 20: / Line 19: @@
 :Eventually, there'll be a [https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/New_New_York New New New New New New New New New New New New New New New York]...
 :Anyway, I actually live not far from a(nother) {{w|New York#United Kingdom|New York}}, and am also a regular visitor to (old) York. So I may not have been to New York, New York, on my travels, but I've got it covered on both sides. (I ''have'' been to both new Boston ''and'' the old one, but only been to the old Washington, both the original Richmond and its first copycat (but none of the US copycopyⁿcats), etc.) [[Special:Contributions/162.158.216.175|162.158.216.175]] 22:01, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
 ::Hmmm. I've a suspicion I know who you are.
 ::I'm gonna say...you ain't heavy? [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 22:16, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
@@ Line 47: / Line 45: @@
 :I believe it's being suggested that these particular two 'different' philosophies (not necessarily, though, if one believes they just aimed for the same basic result from different directions) were developed in reaction to the more monarchical systems of government, both given impetus from the experiences of The Great War (though not just that) to create a ''different'' form of figurehead-dominated politics that was considered, by their proponents, a "modern" solution. Over time, various 'problems' were identified (not least WW2, that revealed Fascism's nature, though Communism temporarily ended up in a better position). Much of the rest of the world ended up moving on from the vestiges of 'traditional monarchy' over this time, too, but not the same way (and, arguably, with different problems - many still quite real or possibly getting worse). There are those who may think that Fascism/Communism actually could still work (perhaps if done ''properly''!), but the original eras of these are now more retro than modern so perhaps (unless you're good at rewriting history) not under those particularly poisoned names.
 :Or so I understood it. Not sure I'd say it like that, or consider it an apt addition to this article, but then I'm not a professional (political-)historian and don't have the in-depth expertise to judge its accuracy in full. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.157|172.70.86.157]] 13:33, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 :: Both 'isms mentioned here have roots a fair bit older than The Great War. The bundle-of-sticks-ism is possibly the oldest form of governance there is, if you define it loosely. (Please note that that is more of a condemnation than endorsement.) --DW [[Special:Contributions/172.69.74.237|172.69.74.237]] 14:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 :::Definitely (and I nearly mentioned that Germany copied Italy's model, while Japan joined in from a still Imperial perspective). Though the pressures of fighting WW1 catalysed Russia's revolution (mid-fight) and many other systems (e.g. Italy) developed both -isms to some degree or other; both the Red Flags and the Black Shirts were plentiful enough in Britain, at times, too, interbellum, arguably held off by Churchill (along with other far more dodgy things) before he even had to deal with the next coming war. Spain became the "rehersal" for the various factions. For post-Kaiser Germany, the resulting defeat plus post-Verseilles demands fuelled drives for ''both'' forms of 'socialism' (the 'national' type ending up in total control, now on an Italy+ track such that most people often forget poor old Benito's part in inspiring it), setting up circumstances for the next bout. Not sure that such things could have been avoided, without WW1, but it definitely forced matters and shaped the 'modern' world differently from how it might have done if the First Great War had only boiled over later. (With different personalities, a few of the same original errors, probably a smattering of more advanced mil-tech or lost opportunities to have learnt from earlier (less effective) wide-area weaponry/long-range weaponry against both enemy and civilian targets - a rich vein for alternate history!)
 :::But I say this only to help with 5he "what is this about...?", which I took to mean not quite knowing how (in their time) they were considered modern answers to age-old questions, only to become different (and eventually dated) problems on the way to today's (still problematic) future. The old "those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" thing applies in spades, here... [[Special:Contributions/172.69.224.169|172.69.224.169]] 15:03, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 : I agree that seems out of place and not pertinent to the comic itself. It is true that those and other 'isms arose because of societal upheavals associated with various [adj]modern things, but that's trivially true of... almost everything. --DW [[Special:Contributions/172.69.74.237|172.69.74.237]] 14:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 ::I ''guess'' that those phrases are there as a segue to explain post-modernism? But the wording is kinda janky and those 2 schools of thought may not be the best examples for this --anon [[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.56|162.158.79.56]] 17:41, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 : Yes, '''please delete the whole phrase''', "and evolved into Communism, and its counter Fascism" since that statement is altogether false. Communism and Fascism are both a form of Marxist totalitarianism. They only differ in implementation and not in ideology. Communism forbids all private ownership, while fascism allows only that private ownership that subjects itself to control by the state. Possibly, the whole section about labeling political movements unrelated to the comic since it doesn't match the categories and time periods depicted in the comic. I vote to take it all out. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 16:43, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 :: You are ''way'' off. A one-dimensional take on social structures like yours is rarely accurate. (I agree that the whole thing needed to be deleted cause it wasn't pertinent to the explanation, though.) [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 54: / Line 54: @@
 : I agree that seems out of place and not pertinent to the comic itself. It is true that those and other 'isms arose because of societal upheavals associated with various [adj]modern things, but that's trivially true of... almost everything. --DW [[Special:Contributions/172.69.74.237|172.69.74.237]] 14:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 ::I ''guess'' that those phrases are there as a segue to explain post-modernism? But the wording is kinda janky and those 2 schools of thought may not be the best examples for this --anon [[Special:Contributions/162.158.79.56|162.158.79.56]] 17:41, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
@@ Line 61: / Line 60: @@
 Modern just means "current". I think the text makes it seem like the fact that the name "modern" as a technical term and the normal use of the word are different meanings of the same word is just a coincidence, as if the term "modern" was extended to refer to contemporary events from its use to describe contemporary philosophy and the like. Instead, "the fault", so to say, lies with those who used the word "modern" to describe the philosophy and the like in the first place. From what I can tell, "modern" does originally mean "current" or something close to it. To use it as a descriptor for things that will not stay "modern" is the ultimate cause.
 : I disagree: The term "modern" is a modern phenomenon. The expectation that society "develops", "improves" or "progresses" in a linear way, and that whatever is "new", "novel", "innovative", etc. is likely better only emerged during modernity. Medieval Europe imagined the world as static, some cultures interpret it as circular (if you grew up thinking that progress is natural, think about how every human goes through life in a fundamentally similar way from birth to death, with each person all over again). Some think it's due to the rise of an anthropocentric world view (where you imagine that you shape the world in a significant way), some think it's due to capitalism (where the economy isn't based on maintaining life, but on maximizing the profits of those who own and invest capital). So if we still associate "modern" with "current, fashionable, chic, interesting, improved, good", that could just be a symptom that some things haven't changed much since the European 16th century. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 15:30, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:40, 16 May 2025
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	According to the nGram viewer, modern peaked in 1928, continued relatively strongly until 1955, then fell off a cliff for the next four decades or so. I blame Marty McFly. [[User:RegularSizedGuy\|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy\|talk]]) 16:12, 16 May 2025 (UTC)		According to the nGram viewer, modern peaked in 1928, continued relatively strongly until 1955, then fell off a cliff for the next four decades or so. I blame Marty McFly. [[User:RegularSizedGuy\|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy\|talk]]) 16:12, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
−	:Don't we all! -- B1FF ~~[[Special~~:~~Contributions/172.70.90.198\|172.70.90.198]]~~	+	:Don't we all! -- B1FF 17:40, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 ::Tru dat. But the NRSV can no longer be considered "new" (assuming editorial and not, say, geological, time scales) or "standard" (that title has passed to the {{w|New_International_Version|NIV}}, at least as measured by sales and by usage in English-language Protestant denominations). As for "revised", the original Standard (= King James) Bible was first published in 1611, with the "Standard" revision in 1769. The "Revised [Standard] Version" debuted in 1881. The NRSV, 1989, and the NRSVue, 2017. On this trajectory, by the end of the century, AI will be producing a new version every 30 seconds or so. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.147.85|172.71.147.85]] 15:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
 ::: Hopefully I'm not the only one that sees NRSV and instinctively think it's an unmanned submersible of some kind. [[User:RegularSizedGuy|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy|talk]]) 16:09, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
 :The US Military has a similar problem: naming a system "Next-Gen [X]" but then the "Next Gen" item eventually becomes the current generation, and is eventually moving towards being obsolete and you need a successor (next-next gen?).[[Special:Contributions/172.69.6.111|172.69.6.111]] 20:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
@@ Line 67: / Line 68: @@
 According to the nGram viewer, modern peaked in 1928, continued relatively strongly until 1955, then fell off a cliff for the next four decades or so. I blame Marty McFly. [[User:RegularSizedGuy|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy|talk]]) 16:12, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:12, 16 May 2025
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	I don't really see the problem myself. Surely once you're past 'pre-modern' you're just back to 'archaic' or something in the cycle? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.4\|172.70.85.4]] 08:23, 16 May 2025 (UTC)		I don't really see the problem myself. Surely once you're past 'pre-modern' you're just back to 'archaic' or something in the cycle? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.4\|172.70.85.4]] 08:23, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	According to the nGram viewer, modern peaked in 1928, continued relatively strongly until 1955, then fell off a cliff for the next four decades or so. I blame Marty McFly. [[User:RegularSizedGuy\|RegularSizedGuy]] ([[User talk:RegularSizedGuy\|talk]]) 16:12, 16 May 2025 (UTC)