Talk:3093: Drafting - Revision history

172.71.178.157 at 13:57, 27 May 2025

2025-05-27T13:57:27Z

172.68.229.40 at 09:43, 27 May 2025

2025-05-27T09:43:19Z

172.71.178.133 at 09:37, 27 May 2025

2025-05-27T09:37:23Z

172.70.214.66: Inefficiency from drag

2025-05-26T22:17:50Z

Inefficiency from drag

172.70.85.60 at 15:23, 26 May 2025

2025-05-26T15:23:09Z

172.68.44.180: Aerospike Exist

2025-05-26T01:27:41Z

Aerospike Exist

172.69.79.164 at 20:01, 25 May 2025

2025-05-25T20:01:34Z

These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For: More info and a suggestion

2025-05-25T16:35:05Z

More info and a suggestion

172.71.167.88: Geese with afterburners, the airborne version of sharks with lasers, because all sharks should have lasers and all lasers should be shark-mounted

2025-05-24T18:43:33Z

Geese with afterburners, the airborne version of sharks with lasers, because all sharks should have lasers and all lasers should be shark-mounted

162.158.175.107: Geese with afterburners, the airborne version of sharks with lasers, because all sharks should have lasers and all lasers should be shark-mounted

2025-05-24T18:42:52Z

Geese with afterburners, the airborne version of sharks with lasers, because all sharks should have lasers and all lasers should be shark-mounted

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	I am aware that bicycle races exist and except for occasional articles about cheating (the most interesting method was extracting one's red blood cells, storing up quite a lot, and putting them back in right before the race) don't care. Geese. Drafting is why I see a vee of geese where the leader peels back and becomes a follower accompanied by a bunch of geese that are just a flock. I think that fighter planes can use drafting. I've noticed the effect when a semi blows past me.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.202\|172.71.222.202]] 06:26, 24 May 2025 (UTC)		I am aware that bicycle races exist and except for occasional articles about cheating (the most interesting method was extracting one's red blood cells, storing up quite a lot, and putting them back in right before the race) don't care. Geese. Drafting is why I see a vee of geese where the leader peels back and becomes a follower accompanied by a bunch of geese that are just a flock. I think that fighter planes can use drafting. I've noticed the effect when a semi blows past me.[[Special:Contributions/172.71.222.202\|172.71.222.202]] 06:26, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
		+	: That's not even close to the most interesting method of cheating in cycling - [https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/8/1/16069440/cycling-cheating-stories-tour-de-france-motors-itching-power-gang-attacks cork between the teeth], anyone?[[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.157\|172.71.178.157]] 13:57, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

	Ironically, Elon Musk has just announced that when the Starship hot-stages from the Super Heavy (meaning one rocket closely following another, both with engines firing, much like the picture), some of the vent ports at the top of the Super Heavy will be blocked so that the thrust from Starship will come out directionally and push the Super Heavy in a predictable direction... thus increasing its efficiency! [[User:Cphoenix\|Cphoenix]] ([[User talk:Cphoenix\|talk]]) 06:43, 24 May 2025 (UTC)		Ironically, Elon Musk has just announced that when the Starship hot-stages from the Super Heavy (meaning one rocket closely following another, both with engines firing, much like the picture), some of the vent ports at the top of the Super Heavy will be blocked so that the thrust from Starship will come out directionally and push the Super Heavy in a predictable direction... thus increasing its efficiency! [[User:Cphoenix\|Cphoenix]] ([[User talk:Cphoenix\|talk]]) 06:43, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:43, 27 May 2025
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	I think the key inefficiency here is that the lead rocket doesn't have a slipstream per se as it's blasting hot gas out behind it. So whereas on a highway the air behind a truck is moving slower compared to the air around the truck (relative to velocity of following vehicle), with a rocket the gas behind the rocket is being propelled backwards by the combustion inside the rocket. So while you don't have as much atmospheric resistance (5% gain), you are competing with exhaust fumes resistance (99% loss). The stuff about it being dangerous or whatever is interesting but beside the point imho. Randall doesn't care about the fact that it's impractical, this is the guy who once proposed a jet pack using machine guns, after all. I would recommend focusing the explanation on the drag forces involved. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.66\|172.70.214.66]] 22:17, 26 May 2025 (UTC)		I think the key inefficiency here is that the lead rocket doesn't have a slipstream per se as it's blasting hot gas out behind it. So whereas on a highway the air behind a truck is moving slower compared to the air around the truck (relative to velocity of following vehicle), with a rocket the gas behind the rocket is being propelled backwards by the combustion inside the rocket. So while you don't have as much atmospheric resistance (5% gain), you are competing with exhaust fumes resistance (99% loss). The stuff about it being dangerous or whatever is interesting but beside the point imho. Randall doesn't care about the fact that it's impractical, this is the guy who once proposed a jet pack using machine guns, after all. I would recommend focusing the explanation on the drag forces involved. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.66\|172.70.214.66]] 22:17, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
		+	: Yes and no. To my mind, the joke is that ''normally'' it's unadvised because of the danger of collision (and sometimes counter-productive aerodynamic effects), but in this case it's because the stream of hot gas means (a) it's not going to work, and (b) it will likely destroy your rocket.[[Special:Contributions/172.68.229.40\|172.68.229.40]] 09:43, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

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 <!-- Please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't delete this text. New comments should be added at the bottom. -->
-The efficiency loss is presuamably because the exhaust from the lead rocket is pushing back on the following rocket. It's also really hot, so the follower may be destroyed. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 15:27, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
+;Site issues
 Anyone else getting lots of "site is experiencing difficulties" errors [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 15:28, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
 :Yes.  It must be drafting behind another, more powerful rocket-themed web page and was experiencing some of that "99% inefficiency." [[Special:Contributions/172.68.26.136|172.68.26.136]] 15:56, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
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 :Not that I wouldn't appreciate less of the 503s/etc. It definitely is a direct annoyance. Which I can't see being solved any time soon (if Cloudflare doesn't blanket add to its proxying protections, itself). [[Special:Contributions/172.68.229.49|172.68.229.49]] 16:34, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
 ::Also here. Had to reload the page three times before I could begin writing. And will likely have to reload or try again several times before this is posted --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 19:06, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
 Added notes on difference between friction and expellant propulsion [[Special:Contributions/172.69.212.151|172.69.212.151]] 16:14, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
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 Only cycling and geese have been mentioned in regards to real-world drafting, but it is immensely important to most forms of auto racing. Drafting is the reason you see packs of 20 or so cars driving nose to tail during NASCAR oval track races. For more: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70s1Zycr_x0 Drag & Drafting | NASCAR Science of Speed (National Science Foundation News)] [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For|talk]]) 16:35, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
 Rocket Scientist here.

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:17, 26 May 2025
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	Believe it or not, self drafting is employed in the form if aerospikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike		Believe it or not, self drafting is employed in the form if aerospikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike
	Also, drafting and self collision is a major concern during first stage separation. {{w\|172.68.44.180\|01:27, 26 May 2025}}		Also, drafting and self collision is a major concern during first stage separation. {{w\|172.68.44.180\|01:27, 26 May 2025}}
		+
		+	I think the key inefficiency here is that the lead rocket doesn't have a slipstream per se as it's blasting hot gas out behind it. So whereas on a highway the air behind a truck is moving slower compared to the air around the truck (relative to velocity of following vehicle), with a rocket the gas behind the rocket is being propelled backwards by the combustion inside the rocket. So while you don't have as much atmospheric resistance (5% gain), you are competing with exhaust fumes resistance (99% loss). The stuff about it being dangerous or whatever is interesting but beside the point imho. Randall doesn't care about the fact that it's impractical, this is the guy who once proposed a jet pack using machine guns, after all. I would recommend focusing the explanation on the drag forces involved. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.214.66\|172.70.214.66]] 22:17, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 45: / Line 45: @@
 Rocket Scientist here.
 Believe it or not, self drafting is employed in the form if aerospikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike
-Also, drafting and self collision is a major concern during first stage separation.
+Also, drafting and self collision is a major concern during first stage separation. {{w|172.68.44.180|01:27, 26 May 2025}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:27, 26 May 2025
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	:But, while I'm here, might as well say that it's not like anything practical can be done about it. Even if we had a more active sysadmin, the job of regulating what is effectively (if not intended to be) a mild-DDoS attack is best handled between the server and the connections.. That's a job that the proxy-host needs to deal with, and I don't think CF is completely up to speed with something that's not just our problem.		:But, while I'm here, might as well say that it's not like anything practical can be done about it. Even if we had a more active sysadmin, the job of regulating what is effectively (if not intended to be) a mild-DDoS attack is best handled between the server and the connections.. That's a job that the proxy-host needs to deal with, and I don't think CF is completely up to speed with something that's not just our problem.
	:Though it's only ''slightly'' annoying, IMO. Should you get a connection error, my advice is to take two or three deep breaths before hitting the Refresh/Retry/whatever. It doesn't help to mash the reload button to add to the number of pokes and prods the server is getting. And responsiveness still seems to work well enough to give any initially refused pages up on the second or ''maybe'' third attempt. I sometimes got far worse performance when in a low mobile-Wifi reception area. ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.79.164\|172.69.79.164]] 20:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)		:Though it's only ''slightly'' annoying, IMO. Should you get a connection error, my advice is to take two or three deep breaths before hitting the Refresh/Retry/whatever. It doesn't help to mash the reload button to add to the number of pokes and prods the server is getting. And responsiveness still seems to work well enough to give any initially refused pages up on the second or ''maybe'' third attempt. I sometimes got far worse performance when in a low mobile-Wifi reception area. ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.79.164\|172.69.79.164]] 20:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	Rocket Scientist here.
		+	Believe it or not, self drafting is employed in the form if aerospikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike
		+	Also, drafting and self collision is a major concern during first stage separation.

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:01, 25 May 2025
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	Suggestion to move the comments regarding the site difficulties down to the bottom of the page under the topic '''"Temporary Site Difficulties Coincidental to This Page"'''. Once they are over there is Zero reason for them to remain, and should be removed to avoid confusion. [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 16:35, 25 May 2025 (UTC)		Suggestion to move the comments regarding the site difficulties down to the bottom of the page under the topic '''"Temporary Site Difficulties Coincidental to This Page"'''. Once they are over there is Zero reason for them to remain, and should be removed to avoid confusion. [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 16:35, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
		+	:Really, there are better places even right now. Like where the more abbreviated mention is under Community Portal.
		+	:But, while I'm here, might as well say that it's not like anything practical can be done about it. Even if we had a more active sysadmin, the job of regulating what is effectively (if not intended to be) a mild-DDoS attack is best handled between the server and the connections.. That's a job that the proxy-host needs to deal with, and I don't think CF is completely up to speed with something that's not just our problem.
		+	:Though it's only ''slightly'' annoying, IMO. Should you get a connection error, my advice is to take two or three deep breaths before hitting the Refresh/Retry/whatever. It doesn't help to mash the reload button to add to the number of pokes and prods the server is getting. And responsiveness still seems to work well enough to give any initially refused pages up on the second or ''maybe'' third attempt. I sometimes got far worse performance when in a low mobile-Wifi reception area. ;) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.79.164\|172.69.79.164]] 20:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:35, 25 May 2025
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	Biggest advantage: You can toast marshmallows on the way up as well as down. [[User:Lordpishky\|Lordpishky]] ([[User talk:Lordpishky\|talk]]) 17:19, 24 May 2025 (UTC)		Biggest advantage: You can toast marshmallows on the way up as well as down. [[User:Lordpishky\|Lordpishky]] ([[User talk:Lordpishky\|talk]]) 17:19, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	Only cycling and geese have been mentioned in regards to real-world drafting, but it is immensely important to most forms of auto racing. Drafting is the reason you see packs of 20 or so cars driving nose to tail during NASCAR oval track races. For more: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70s1Zycr_x0 Drag & Drafting \| NASCAR Science of Speed (National Science Foundation News)] [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 16:35, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	Suggestion to move the comments regarding the site difficulties down to the bottom of the page under the topic '''"Temporary Site Difficulties Coincidental to This Page"'''. Once they are over there is Zero reason for them to remain, and should be removed to avoid confusion. [[User:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For]] ([[User talk:These Are Not The Comments You Are Looking For\|talk]]) 16:35, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

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 When cyclists start having afterburner set up, the same problem will occur on TourDeFrance. --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.122.252|172.71.122.252]] 15:32, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
-:When geese get afterburners, will hunters bring home pre-cooked birds? Obligatory note to hunters:  Some geese are legally protected in some countries. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.175.107|162.158.175.107]] 18:42, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
+:When geese get afterburners, will hunters bring home pre-cooked birds? Obligatory note to hunters:  Some geese are legally protected in some countries. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.167.88|172.71.167.88]] 18:43, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
 Biggest advantage: You can toast marshmallows on the way up as well as down. [[User:Lordpishky|Lordpishky]] ([[User talk:Lordpishky|talk]]) 17:19, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:42, 24 May 2025
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	When cyclists start having afterburner set up, the same problem will occur on TourDeFrance. --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.122.252\|172.71.122.252]] 15:32, 24 May 2025 (UTC)		When cyclists start having afterburner set up, the same problem will occur on TourDeFrance. --[[Special:Contributions/172.71.122.252\|172.71.122.252]] 15:32, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
		+	:When geese get afterburners, will hunters bring home pre-cooked birds? Obligatory note to hunters: Some geese are legally protected in some countries. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.175.107\|162.158.175.107]] 18:42, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

	Biggest advantage: You can toast marshmallows on the way up as well as down. [[User:Lordpishky\|Lordpishky]] ([[User talk:Lordpishky\|talk]]) 17:19, 24 May 2025 (UTC)		Biggest advantage: You can toast marshmallows on the way up as well as down. [[User:Lordpishky\|Lordpishky]] ([[User talk:Lordpishky\|talk]]) 17:19, 24 May 2025 (UTC)