Talk:808: The Economic Argument - Revision history

2.98.65.8 at 20:47, 27 October 2025

2025-10-27T20:47:28Z

24.206.89.106 at 20:20, 27 October 2025

2025-10-27T20:20:53Z

Ooker: add sign

2025-10-11T05:18:28Z

add sign

Ooker: add a counter-example

2025-10-11T05:17:51Z

add a counter-example

82.132.186.65 at 21:29, 28 August 2025

2025-08-28T21:29:51Z

76.94.38.95 at 16:43, 28 August 2025

2025-08-28T16:43:13Z

42.book.addict at 19:10, 5 November 2024

2024-11-05T19:10:58Z

162.158.103.64 at 21:37, 30 January 2023

2023-01-30T21:37:04Z

108.162.242.9 at 16:53, 22 January 2020

2020-01-22T16:53:45Z

172.68.47.222 at 07:30, 30 August 2019

2019-08-30T07:30:53Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:47, 27 October 2025
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	A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent][[User:Ooker\|Ooker]] ([[User talk:Ooker\|talk]]) 05:18, 11 October 2025 (UTC)		A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent][[User:Ooker\|Ooker]] ([[User talk:Ooker\|talk]]) 05:18, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

−	:I think that's explained by the alt-text: ''Not to be confused with 'making money selling this stuff to OTHER people who think it works', which corporate accountants and actuaries have zero problems with.''	+	:I think that's explained by the alt-text: ''Not to be confused with 'making money selling this stuff to OTHER people who think it works', which corporate accountants and actuaries have zero problems with.'' {{unsigned ip\|24.206.89.106\|20:20, 27 October 2025}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:20, 27 October 2025
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	A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent][[User:Ooker\|Ooker]] ([[User talk:Ooker\|talk]]) 05:18, 11 October 2025 (UTC)		A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent][[User:Ooker\|Ooker]] ([[User talk:Ooker\|talk]]) 05:18, 11 October 2025 (UTC)
		+
		+	:I think that's explained by the alt-text: ''Not to be confused with 'making money selling this stuff to OTHER people who think it works', which corporate accountants and actuaries have zero problems with.''

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:18, 11 October 2025
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	:Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not. {{unsigned ip\|76.94.38.95\|16:43, 28 August 2025}}		:Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not. {{unsigned ip\|76.94.38.95\|16:43, 28 August 2025}}

−	A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent]	+	A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent][[User:Ooker\|Ooker]] ([[User talk:Ooker\|talk]]) 05:18, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:17, 11 October 2025
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	:Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not. {{unsigned ip\|76.94.38.95\|16:43, 28 August 2025}}		:Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not. {{unsigned ip\|76.94.38.95\|16:43, 28 August 2025}}
		+
		+	A counter-example: [https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/myers-briggs-psychology-test-garbage-b2200663.html How thousands of companies ended up using a bogus psychology test on their staff \| The Independent]

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:29, 28 August 2025
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	:I mean, Poland is a highly Catholic country; it's just courtesy for the government (which is mostly Catholic as well) to make sure the soldiers can still worship while they're on active duty. It doesn't provide altars for civilians, because the Catholic Church does that (though the Church also provides the military chaplains who use the altars). Not to mention that prayer has never been put forward (except by idiots) as a sort of divine vending machine from which you will (if God exists) always get what you want; you might just as well say that because a friend sometimes turns down your favor requests for your own good, it's because "asking" doesn't work. ---S		:I mean, Poland is a highly Catholic country; it's just courtesy for the government (which is mostly Catholic as well) to make sure the soldiers can still worship while they're on active duty. It doesn't provide altars for civilians, because the Catholic Church does that (though the Church also provides the military chaplains who use the altars). Not to mention that prayer has never been put forward (except by idiots) as a sort of divine vending machine from which you will (if God exists) always get what you want; you might just as well say that because a friend sometimes turns down your favor requests for your own good, it's because "asking" doesn't work. ---S

−	Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not.	+	:Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not. {{unsigned ip\|76.94.38.95\|16:43, 28 August 2025}}

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	In 2021 Polish government put forward a tender for 300 mobile field altars. So you could add a line: (Column 1) Prayer (Column 2) Military (Column 3) Yes, someome does that. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.103.64\|162.158.103.64]] 21:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)		In 2021 Polish government put forward a tender for 300 mobile field altars. So you could add a line: (Column 1) Prayer (Column 2) Military (Column 3) Yes, someome does that. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.103.64\|162.158.103.64]] 21:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	:I mean, Poland is a highly Catholic country; it's just courtesy for the government (which is mostly Catholic as well) to make sure the soldiers can still worship while they're on active duty. It doesn't provide altars for civilians, because the Catholic Church does that (though the Church also provides the military chaplains who use the altars). Not to mention that prayer has never been put forward (except by idiots) as a sort of divine vending machine from which you will (if God exists) always get what you want; you might just as well say that because a friend sometimes turns down your favor requests for your own good, it's because "asking" doesn't work. ---S
		+
		+	Also, to get something straightened out that several of the editors here (and Randall) understandably never think about: every "answer to prayer" is either a miracle --- that is to say, it's not caused by other natural events that occurred in previous history and comes straight from God --- or it isn't. Answers of the second class are obviously much more common, regardless of whether you believe "God" or "miracles" exist at all. Now you could say that an "answer to prayer" of class #2 "would have happened anyway" because you can see the physical causes that led up to it and they don't seem correlated to your prayer, but that argument presupposes that God (like a human friend) experiences time the way we do --- future becoming present becoming past --- whereas it's immensely more likely that, if God exists, time is one of His creations, like everything else. Thus, the Creation would be taking place at every point of space and time, and all times would be Now to God, meaning that your future prayer (or future from your perspective) was taken into account when God first created the universe and the chain of physical causes leading up to it. C.S. Lewis explains it better in his book Miracles (appendix A) than I can, but something else he stressed was that it's impossible to know empirically whether a non-miraculous event was an answer to prayer or not --- and if you think about it, you can see that this is probably a good thing. Someone who knew his prayer had been answered "would feel like a magician", feel as if he had exercised some control over God, as if he were a being on God's own level. I am not here arguing for God's existence; I'm saying only that the fact that petitionary prayers are sometimes refused, and sometimes not, is hardly evidence that prayer "doesn't work" --- because no one could reasonably expect it "always to work" in the first place like a physical process, if the Being on the other end of the prayer had a mind and will of Its own and got to decide whether your prayer should be answered or not.

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 How does one decide which value of T or t to use for relativity equations?
-Is it on the list?
+Is it on the list? [[User:Weatherlawyer| I used Google News BEFORE it was clickbait]] ([[User talk:Weatherlawyer|talk]]) 00:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 Have you read Grey Matter, by David Levy? He uses prayer in neurosurgery, but he doesn't get paid more for it.

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:37, 30 January 2023
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	No explanation as to the references to corporate accountants and actuaries? Perhaps they offer services which are only "believed" to work? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.242.9\|108.162.242.9]] 16:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)		No explanation as to the references to corporate accountants and actuaries? Perhaps they offer services which are only "believed" to work? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.242.9\|108.162.242.9]] 16:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
		+
		+	In 2021 Polish government put forward a tender for 300 mobile field altars. So you could add a line: (Column 1) Prayer (Column 2) Military (Column 3) Yes, someome does that. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.103.64\|162.158.103.64]] 21:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:53, 22 January 2020
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	Companies ARE already making a killing in "health care cost reductions" through homeopathy and such, by selling homeopathic medicine and services to gullible fools who believe it can cure their very expensive diseases, and believing they are saving tons of money in doing so. Doesn't mean that it works though. I like the comic, but the premise is a bit short-sighted. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.126.4\|162.158.126.4]] 12:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)		Companies ARE already making a killing in "health care cost reductions" through homeopathy and such, by selling homeopathic medicine and services to gullible fools who believe it can cure their very expensive diseases, and believing they are saving tons of money in doing so. Doesn't mean that it works though. I like the comic, but the premise is a bit short-sighted. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.126.4\|162.158.126.4]] 12:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
	:I guess reading the title text is just way too difficult. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.47.222\|172.68.47.222]] 07:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)		:I guess reading the title text is just way too difficult. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.47.222\|172.68.47.222]] 07:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	No explanation as to the references to corporate accountants and actuaries? Perhaps they offer services which are only "believed" to work? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.242.9\|108.162.242.9]] 16:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:30, 30 August 2019
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	Companies ARE already making a killing in "health care cost reductions" through homeopathy and such, by selling homeopathic medicine and services to gullible fools who believe it can cure their very expensive diseases, and believing they are saving tons of money in doing so. Doesn't mean that it works though. I like the comic, but the premise is a bit short-sighted. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.126.4\|162.158.126.4]] 12:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)		Companies ARE already making a killing in "health care cost reductions" through homeopathy and such, by selling homeopathic medicine and services to gullible fools who believe it can cure their very expensive diseases, and believing they are saving tons of money in doing so. Doesn't mean that it works though. I like the comic, but the premise is a bit short-sighted. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.126.4\|162.158.126.4]] 12:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
		+	:I guess reading the title text is just way too difficult. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.47.222\|172.68.47.222]] 07:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)