Difference between revisions of "Talk:2519: Sloped Border"

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(Added note about "ground level" implying "ground slope", not "ground height")
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I would make the country's border an Alexander horned sphere. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.221.245|108.162.221.245]] 03:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 
I would make the country's border an Alexander horned sphere. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.221.245|108.162.221.245]] 03:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
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:Waaait ... how can we define the border to maximize area of both countries? I'm talking non-measurable sets invoking something like {{w|Banach–Tarski paradox}} here ... -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 00:01, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
  
 
At least this border doesn't have [https://youtu.be/Mw44wHG4KOc thickness]. --[[User:Angel|Angel]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 04:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 
At least this border doesn't have [https://youtu.be/Mw44wHG4KOc thickness]. --[[User:Angel|Angel]] ([[User talk:Angel|talk]]) 04:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:01, 24 September 2021


I might be old-fashioned, but I've always wanted to live in Mandelbrotistan 3D. 162.158.89.156 15:49, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I would make the country's border an Alexander horned sphere. 108.162.221.245 03:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Waaait ... how can we define the border to maximize area of both countries? I'm talking non-measurable sets invoking something like Banach–Tarski paradox here ... -- Hkmaly (talk) 00:01, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

At least this border doesn't have thickness. --Angel (talk) 04:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC) -yet 172.69.55.107 05:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


GIS: Geographic Information System, that are the systems where maps (and the borders) are defined. They won't care much though, because for them the ground information is the relevant one. Once you get into air, you'll get a problem, because if the border is very sloped, and not in average straight, then an airplane might still be in the airzone of a different country than where it's flying over. Which will cause all kinds of problems, security wise. Liechtenstein might loose all control over its airspace, yet their inhabitants want safety even from aircraft flying above them. Can't imagine that going well, but bureaucrazy is that: it creates paperwork when it is not busy enough with the procedures it already created. 172.69.55.107 05:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Liechtenstein and air control is a bad example for the problems with sloped borders because it's quite often the case that the air space of one country is done by air space controllers of another country. In the case of Liechtenstein this is done by SKYGUIDE in Switzerland that is also doing it for southern parts of Germany (being responsible for the collision of two planes near Überlingen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision) 162.158.89.156 06:34, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't sloped borders also have interesting consequences underground when mining, building tunnels etc. ? 162.158.88.239 08:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I introduced into the explanation a hint of the more precise problem with airborne geometry upon spherical (or, possibly, geodesic) coordinates. The shallower the angle, the more possible that the 'curves with the ground' altitude calculation is to actually wrap itself all the way round the Earth before (presumably), whatever altitude limit there is to make space the same upper edge as International Waters are to horizontal edges. Taking the Liechtenstein case, as above, you could easily enclose them in a 'pyramidal' (or wedged, if not applied from all around them) air-claim by angling over them - or greatly increase their air-claim over neighbours if the angle is away. With inverse issues for the Mineral Rights issue. You need to agree in advance what happens when angled boundaries hit perpendicular ones, and whether the 'rhumbs' projected from the border mash together when equidistant points on a crinkly border project their own air-distance line. And if it is from an agreed surface level datum or local ground level, with the complications that arise from both cases. (Yeah, I originally thought there were about four different bones of contention that need to be ironed out in the codicil on curvature, but I now think there's about six of them needing strict definition, not counting the compound cases which further may need specifying in advance or forever requirev adhoc arbitration.) And none of this even takes account of Relativity and curved space frame of reference that might very subtly shift whatever reference you just agreed upon, if you let it go high enough. 172.70.34.165 12:05, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Should there be a part of the explanation talking about how GIS is already a nightmare? Because the hobby is "_new_ ways to make life a nightmare" 162.158.75.159 13:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not worth wondering: is the boarder sloped across cardinal directions, like East to West, or is it sloped inward or outwards from the country in question? If the latter, outwards will make it like a funnel, meaning country A has greater airspace than its surface area at "ground" level. (Which is another consideration: where does the initial angle begin?) If sloped inwards, well then that country loses a lot of advantage. If it's based on cardinal directions... I do not want to consider how many complications that would create along various sections of the border. 108.162.219.51 16:55, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, NERD SNIPE! 108.162.219.51 16:56, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
My presumption would be that the line-on-the-ground, however it winds around (e.g. following the centre of a river, the apex of a ridge or the point-to-point (with or without Great Circle adjustment) between two defining nodes) is a sequence of presumed horizontal line segments of arbitrary length, normalised to be parallel to the horizontal at the whatever ground elevation they cross. That line and the perpendicular through that line from the centre of the Earth (the vertical, by all accounts) thus define the third mutually perpendicular line that is the 'slopeward'(/antislopward) baseline. The defined angle indicates the inclination from the vertical on the vertical/slopeward plane.
Where landforms complicate matters the border rises or falls across contours, or twists and turns with a convex and/or concave groundtrack, the dominant inclined border is that originating from the closest source-point wherever there is potentially conflict.
If Cueball's border was around an enclave otherwise within his area of control, this would result in a tent-like (but strangely irregular) territorial enclosure (assuming not truncated by the Karman Line 'air limit', or similar). But I think he's content to make this just any shared border (e.g. the mostly 'straight' US-Canada fifty-whatever-parallel one) which means probably all other territorial limits (in that case, maritime) remain vertical (certainly not similarly leaning, in non-right-prismatic form) and except in a very few edge cases would end up dominating the slope-vs-vertical intersections.
As to 'advantage' (except for the territory sloped away from), I don't think there really is one. At best, it makes true geofencing of drones a bit more complicated than saying "don't cross this line; don't go above/below these altitudes" for some doubtless functional reason. For the people in the RHS 'illustrative' sub-image, it seems to have no practical effect other than to identify limbs/other extremities as cross-border in rather more unusual slices of the body than a normal border-straddler would expect. 162.158.159.11 22:33, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, defining the calculation of the slope is tricky indeed. The commenter above suggests that the slope is relative to "vertical". However, the interpretation of "ground level" could deal with "level" meaning the ground slope, not the ground height. In other words, consider the slope on the side of a mountain. Let's suppose that in a local area, with a section of border running north/south, the ground is sloped 30 degrees to the east. Does that mean the 74 degree border is 104 degrees to the east at that point? The ground changing shape (whether due to natural erosion or bulldozers) could change the borders significantly.108.162.246.220 00:01, 24 September 2021 (UTC)