Editing Talk:2790: Heat Pump
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::Right now, I'd not wish to heat my indoors up (even at 11:30pm, like now), so I agree that it's a funny time of year show heat-adding (rather than heat removing), but it definitely is that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.154|172.70.86.154]] 22:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC) | ::Right now, I'd not wish to heat my indoors up (even at 11:30pm, like now), so I agree that it's a funny time of year show heat-adding (rather than heat removing), but it definitely is that. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.154|172.70.86.154]] 22:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
:::Assumption(?): Indoors is on the LHS and higher, outdoors on the RHS and lower, door opens outwards and steps down to "outside". He COULD instead be cooling a basement apartment with a door that opens inwards (like mine)... however he seems to make a noticeable difference to the red, not the blue, so... probably not. :-/ [[Special:Contributions/172.70.34.160|172.70.34.160]] 02:36, 17 June 2023 (UTC) | :::Assumption(?): Indoors is on the LHS and higher, outdoors on the RHS and lower, door opens outwards and steps down to "outside". He COULD instead be cooling a basement apartment with a door that opens inwards (like mine)... however he seems to make a noticeable difference to the red, not the blue, so... probably not. :-/ [[Special:Contributions/172.70.34.160|172.70.34.160]] 02:36, 17 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
− | :::: I don't think that's right... Homes rarely are a few steps lower than outside (half a flight for a basement apartment, but not 2 or 3 steps), and steps are rarely if ever just inside the door. However, it is extremely common for indoors to be 2 or 3 steps up (as a wheelchair user, let me assure you of this fact, LOL!), and steps are often right up to the door | + | :::: I don't think that's right... Homes rarely are a few steps lower than outside (half a flight for a basement apartment, but not 2 or 3 steps), and steps are rarely if ever just inside the door. However, it is extremely common for indoors to be 2 or 3 steps up (as a wheelchair user, let me assure you of this fact, LOL!), and steps are often right up to the door l8ke this. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC) |
::: Since panel 3 shows it at its widest and bluest with "Release", I understand that to mean he's releasing the heat outside from inside - like an A/C does. The weird thing is then showing the reddest/smallest with "Radiate", that word means "make and release heat" to me. The thing is, past experience tells me Randall lives in roughly the same part of the world as me, same climate. That he's in the northern states (like, within a day's drive of the Canadian border), and the Eastern time zone, and it's summer for us. Only heat pumping people should want is pumping heat OUT of the house... [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:16, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | ::: Since panel 3 shows it at its widest and bluest with "Release", I understand that to mean he's releasing the heat outside from inside - like an A/C does. The weird thing is then showing the reddest/smallest with "Radiate", that word means "make and release heat" to me. The thing is, past experience tells me Randall lives in roughly the same part of the world as me, same climate. That he's in the northern states (like, within a day's drive of the Canadian border), and the Eastern time zone, and it's summer for us. Only heat pumping people should want is pumping heat OUT of the house... [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 04:16, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
::::Releasing the spring. At that point, there's the same amount of heat within the device, but it's spread out more so that the temperature is lower (than it was, but also than the surrounding air, which is also ''negligibly'' compressed outwards of course). NB, it does ''not'' draw air into it. | ::::Releasing the spring. At that point, there's the same amount of heat within the device, but it's spread out more so that the temperature is lower (than it was, but also than the surrounding air, which is also ''negligibly'' compressed outwards of course). NB, it does ''not'' draw air into it. | ||
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:Let's say it's winter, and it's cold outside. It's warmer inside, but not as warm as you'd like it to be, so you need to warm it up. Where are you going to get the heat from? Traditionally you'd use a boiler to heat up water or electric coils, but these use lots of energy. A heat pump is more efficient, it moves some of the heat from the cold air outside to the inside. You need a pump because it won't move spontaneously -- heat always goes from warmer to colder areas. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 09:49, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | :Let's say it's winter, and it's cold outside. It's warmer inside, but not as warm as you'd like it to be, so you need to warm it up. Where are you going to get the heat from? Traditionally you'd use a boiler to heat up water or electric coils, but these use lots of energy. A heat pump is more efficient, it moves some of the heat from the cold air outside to the inside. You need a pump because it won't move spontaneously -- heat always goes from warmer to colder areas. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 09:49, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
:: Let's NOT say it's winter, because it's summer. :) It seems horribly unlikely he'd publish a winter-themed comic in the summer (the BEGINNING of summer, when everyone in our region - mine and Randall's - has been patiently waiting for the summer weather). Anyways, it really DOESN'T make sense, being a cold area means there's a lack of heat, none to transfer. I would think a temperature pump/device that absorbs temperature can't pick and choose WHAT to absorb, if there's cold it would absorb cold. Like in a 10° environment it'll absorb 10° temperature, in 30° it'll get 30°, and it's combining it with the target area which will determine the effect it'll have. It being summer suggests this was meant the other way. Perhaps the person who was convinced this was related to the Germany thing swapped it, but the person who removed the Germany connection didn't notice to swap it back? [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | :: Let's NOT say it's winter, because it's summer. :) It seems horribly unlikely he'd publish a winter-themed comic in the summer (the BEGINNING of summer, when everyone in our region - mine and Randall's - has been patiently waiting for the summer weather). Anyways, it really DOESN'T make sense, being a cold area means there's a lack of heat, none to transfer. I would think a temperature pump/device that absorbs temperature can't pick and choose WHAT to absorb, if there's cold it would absorb cold. Like in a 10° environment it'll absorb 10° temperature, in 30° it'll get 30°, and it's combining it with the target area which will determine the effect it'll have. It being summer suggests this was meant the other way. Perhaps the person who was convinced this was related to the Germany thing swapped it, but the person who removed the Germany connection didn't notice to swap it back? [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
− | :::"... being a cold area means there's a lack of heat, none to transfer." - Only true if you're talking about O°K(/0°Ra). Otherwise what you have is less heat, but can still technically remove some of that heat to make it even lower. (By manipulating a substance though P<sub>1</sub>V<sub>1 | + | :::"... being a cold area means there's a lack of heat, none to transfer." - Only true if you're talking about O°K(/0°Ra). Otherwise what you have is less heat, but can still technically remove some of that heat to make it even lower. (By manipulating a substance though P<sub>1</sub>V<sub>1/T<sub>1</sub>=P<sub>2</sub>V<sub>2/T<sub>2</sub> to make something with the same general heat have a reduced T<sub>2</sub> so that T<sub>external</sub> will warm it/be cooled by it, before you bring it into a new environment and then make it revert to the new T<sub>1</sub> that is warmer than T<sub>internal</sub>... for example.) |
− | :::Assuming you're using Fahrenheit for 10° and 30°, how about I reframe your other bit in °C? "Like in a -12° environment it'll absorb -12° temperature, in -1° it'll get -1°" ... Temperature doesn't know where you're (semi-arbitrarily) setting your zero-mark. A device that can extract 10F° of 'temperature' from a 10°F atmosphere in the US would find itself forced only to ''add'' (approx) 12C° of 'temperature' from an otherwise identical atmosphere if operating in the UK/EU/most other places? No, it'll have the same warming/cooling power in both scenarios. It'll vary by what the temperature differential is (and where on the scale, as a change of 10 degrees (whatever scale) is not the same difference of energy as a subsequent onward change of 10 degrees (same scale), and a 4:9ish ratio of how you'd enumerate it in F or C (or Rankine or Kelvin), but it'll make unpleasant temperatures pleasant (or vice-versa) or store/cook your food at the right practical temperature in exactly the same way whether the thermostat displays in Celsius, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, Rankine, Réaumur, Rømer, Delisle or whatever unit.. | + | :::Assuming you're using Fahrenheit for 10° and 30°, how about I reframe your other bit in °C? "Like in a -12° environment it'll absorb -12° temperature, in -1° it'll get -1°" ... Temperature doesn't know where you're (semi-arbitrarily) setting your zero-mark. A device that can extract 10F° of 'temperature' from a 10°F atmosphere in the US would find itself forced only to ''add'' (approx) 12C° of 'temperature' from an otherwise identical atmosphere if operating in the UK/EU/most other places? No, it'll have the same warming/cooling power in both scenarios. It'll vary by what the temperature differential is (and where on the scale, as a change of 10 degrees (whatever scale) is not the same difference of energy as a subsequent onward change of 10 degrees (same scale), and a 4:9ish ratio of how you'd enumerate it in F or C (or Rankine or Kelvin), but it'll make unpleasant temperatures pleasant (or vice-versa) or store/cook your food at the right practical temperature in exactly the same way whether the thermostat displays in Celsius, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, Rankine, Réaumur, Rømer, Delisle or whatever unit... [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.44|141.101.98.44]] 13:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:[edit conflict with the above reply, thus repetition, but as I was adding other stuff too...] It's fridge-logic! i.e., that's what fridges do... and if you're living in a cool climate, you can potentially heat your house above "too cold for indoors" temperatures by extracting heat from the "far too cold for indoors" air that is outside. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.96|162.158.74.96]] 09:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | :[edit conflict with the above reply, thus repetition, but as I was adding other stuff too...] It's fridge-logic! i.e., that's what fridges do... and if you're living in a cool climate, you can potentially heat your house above "too cold for indoors" temperatures by extracting heat from the "far too cold for indoors" air that is outside. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.96|162.158.74.96]] 09:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
:: I've always understood that fridges - refrigerators - applied refrigeration, as in applied cold to make it cold. Like keeping a powered ice cube in there. And the heat exuded out the back is a byproduct of all the power powering that cold takes. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | :: I've always understood that fridges - refrigerators - applied refrigeration, as in applied cold to make it cold. Like keeping a powered ice cube in there. And the heat exuded out the back is a byproduct of all the power powering that cold takes. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
:::"Cold" is not a thing. It's a lack (or, rather, reduction) of heat. It was often considered a thing (because cold hard stuff like ice is more 'obviously a thing' than slippery water or frankly intangible stuff like steam) or looked at how things expanded/contracted against other things in a contrary direction to how they really related to each other. Early attempts to measure temperature used that assumption (prior to 1743, water boiled at 0°C, froze at 100°C, before they switched the defined limits; the archaic Delisle unit [i]still[/i] 'measures backwards') but then understanding dawned and hascsince been improved upon. Something at Absolute Zero is (rare/more a theoretical state than a lractical one! ...but, apart from that) not a source of cold but a sink to any nearby heat that happens to be currently radiating/conducting towards it. | :::"Cold" is not a thing. It's a lack (or, rather, reduction) of heat. It was often considered a thing (because cold hard stuff like ice is more 'obviously a thing' than slippery water or frankly intangible stuff like steam) or looked at how things expanded/contracted against other things in a contrary direction to how they really related to each other. Early attempts to measure temperature used that assumption (prior to 1743, water boiled at 0°C, froze at 100°C, before they switched the defined limits; the archaic Delisle unit [i]still[/i] 'measures backwards') but then understanding dawned and hascsince been improved upon. Something at Absolute Zero is (rare/more a theoretical state than a lractical one! ...but, apart from that) not a source of cold but a sink to any nearby heat that happens to be currently radiating/conducting towards it. | ||
:::Fridges move heat energy, as do all heat-pumps. In the fridge's case, you're interested in moving heat to cool one place (not too fussed about where the heat moves to, just outside the refrigerator/its freezer compartment). In an air/water/ground-source heat-pump used to warm an internal space you're bothered about where the heat goes far more than where it comes from (except for if you start to get ice on the cold end of the device, which reduces the efficiency in leaching the regular air/water/whatever) but very similar processes are used to do the basic movement (and the actual work needed to power the change adds a net energy output, in extra heat/noise/airflow/etc). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.44|141.101.98.44]] 13:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | :::Fridges move heat energy, as do all heat-pumps. In the fridge's case, you're interested in moving heat to cool one place (not too fussed about where the heat moves to, just outside the refrigerator/its freezer compartment). In an air/water/ground-source heat-pump used to warm an internal space you're bothered about where the heat goes far more than where it comes from (except for if you start to get ice on the cold end of the device, which reduces the efficiency in leaching the regular air/water/whatever) but very similar processes are used to do the basic movement (and the actual work needed to power the change adds a net energy output, in extra heat/noise/airflow/etc). [[Special:Contributions/141.101.98.44|141.101.98.44]] 13:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
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Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | Technically, it's not the ''ideal'' gas law in play, since air isn't an ideal gas, and the system would behave similarly for closer-to-reality gas behaviour models. But I can't think of a good way of modifying the article to reflect that. [[User:BunsenH|BunsenH]] ([[User talk:BunsenH|talk]]) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
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: Anyway, the colours are the usual colours. At least it's less confusing than taps labelled C(old) and H(ot) in the UK, but ''F(roid) et C(haud)'' in France, at least when you see only the "C" first. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.85|141.101.99.85]] 14:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC) | : Anyway, the colours are the usual colours. At least it's less confusing than taps labelled C(old) and H(ot) in the UK, but ''F(roid) et C(haud)'' in France, at least when you see only the "C" first. [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.85|141.101.99.85]] 14:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
::Heh, that reminds me of my confusion as a kid when sometimes bathrooms would be labelled D and H (Damer/Herrer = ladies/gentlemen), and sometimes P and D (Piger/Drenge = girls/boys). [[User:Villemoes|Villemoes]] ([[User talk:Villemoes|talk]]) 12:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | ::Heh, that reminds me of my confusion as a kid when sometimes bathrooms would be labelled D and H (Damer/Herrer = ladies/gentlemen), and sometimes P and D (Piger/Drenge = girls/boys). [[User:Villemoes|Villemoes]] ([[User talk:Villemoes|talk]]) 12:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
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Your parlance vary but to me a heat pump is a device that can heat or cool. (strangely, this would be easier to explain if I spoke of 'caloric' and coolth.' A heatpump is not an air conditioner except that it actually is when it wants to be: it can both move energy into a space and out of the space. Refrigerators only move energy out. Air conditioners only move energy out, (for the standard way to install them) the argue about summer and winter? Stop being silly. Here the outdoor temp has varied a lil in the past ten days. I think from a low of 45F (light jacket weather) to a high of 92 (uncomfortably warm). Here, to keep it comfortable inside at this time and (similar weather in the fall) I need to cool from about 3-7 pm and heat from about 3-9 am. If you live in a country that has rationing, my sympathies. "But apartment manager!! the toilet is frozen over!" "Yeah, doesn't matter. I can't turn the heat on until December 15." Sort of thing.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.86|172.70.130.86]] 00:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC) | Your parlance vary but to me a heat pump is a device that can heat or cool. (strangely, this would be easier to explain if I spoke of 'caloric' and coolth.' A heatpump is not an air conditioner except that it actually is when it wants to be: it can both move energy into a space and out of the space. Refrigerators only move energy out. Air conditioners only move energy out, (for the standard way to install them) the argue about summer and winter? Stop being silly. Here the outdoor temp has varied a lil in the past ten days. I think from a low of 45F (light jacket weather) to a high of 92 (uncomfortably warm). Here, to keep it comfortable inside at this time and (similar weather in the fall) I need to cool from about 3-7 pm and heat from about 3-9 am. If you live in a country that has rationing, my sympathies. "But apartment manager!! the toilet is frozen over!" "Yeah, doesn't matter. I can't turn the heat on until December 15." Sort of thing.[[Special:Contributions/172.70.130.86|172.70.130.86]] 00:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
:¿Que? You sound confused. And pumps (heat- or otherwise) needn't be bidirectional. Perhaps it's easier, even, with something slightly different like a peltier-effect system (with switchable power-flow) than to make a fully reversible source/sink set of radiators and compression/expansion chambers, on top of whatever you do to thaw frosting over of the cool-side, etc. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.25|172.70.86.25]] 01:04, 23 June 2023 (UTC) | :¿Que? You sound confused. And pumps (heat- or otherwise) needn't be bidirectional. Perhaps it's easier, even, with something slightly different like a peltier-effect system (with switchable power-flow) than to make a fully reversible source/sink set of radiators and compression/expansion chambers, on top of whatever you do to thaw frosting over of the cool-side, etc. [[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.25|172.70.86.25]] 01:04, 23 June 2023 (UTC) |