Editing Talk:1806: Borrow Your Laptop
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:::::::Calm down. You are seeing things that are not there.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:58, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | :::::::Calm down. You are seeing things that are not there.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 20:58, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
::::::::It sure doesn't fell that way for me personally. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 21:11, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | ::::::::It sure doesn't fell that way for me personally. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 21:11, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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;Keyboard layout | ;Keyboard layout | ||
Re: Information text "Everything is senseless -- who changes the keyboard layout without changing the keyboard itself? Typing blindly is just a guess but not shown in the comic." | Re: Information text "Everything is senseless -- who changes the keyboard layout without changing the keyboard itself? Typing blindly is just a guess but not shown in the comic." | ||
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:::::Thanks [[User:Jaalenja|Jaalenja]], I'm sure we both are not the only one who thinks this is horribly verbose. I will move some parts into a trivia section. BTW: Many other explanations are the same.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 21:16, 6 March 2017 (UTC) | :::::Thanks [[User:Jaalenja|Jaalenja]], I'm sure we both are not the only one who thinks this is horribly verbose. I will move some parts into a trivia section. BTW: Many other explanations are the same.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 21:16, 6 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
::::::Or at least two... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 20:07, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | ::::::Or at least two... --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 20:07, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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:Just a thank you | :Just a thank you | ||
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:There is no Dvorak in the comic.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 00:01, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | :There is no Dvorak in the comic.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 00:01, 7 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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WOW lots of nastiness from Dgbrt here! A lot of which I disagree with EXCEPT verbosity. A lot of comics get overly verbose explanations - my current favourite example is 1800, about chess notation, where about 80% of the explanation should be purely deleted - and as such the focus should remain on helping people understand the comic. HOWEVER, a certain amount of leeway is required to assist such understanding, such as here with Dvorak. While it is not explicitly stated that Cueball's layout is currently set to Dvorak, past references make it likely, and I would think that Dvorak is the second-most used layout in the U.S. (and as has been stated, I think by Dgbrt, this comic IS American, set in America. My general approach towards cultural differences is "When in doubt, it's American"). So it would be inappropriate to say "Cueball's computer is set to Dvorak", but it would be appropriate and advisable to say "Cueball's computer is set to another layout, most likely Dvorak". | WOW lots of nastiness from Dgbrt here! A lot of which I disagree with EXCEPT verbosity. A lot of comics get overly verbose explanations - my current favourite example is 1800, about chess notation, where about 80% of the explanation should be purely deleted - and as such the focus should remain on helping people understand the comic. HOWEVER, a certain amount of leeway is required to assist such understanding, such as here with Dvorak. While it is not explicitly stated that Cueball's layout is currently set to Dvorak, past references make it likely, and I would think that Dvorak is the second-most used layout in the U.S. (and as has been stated, I think by Dgbrt, this comic IS American, set in America. My general approach towards cultural differences is "When in doubt, it's American"). So it would be inappropriate to say "Cueball's computer is set to Dvorak", but it would be appropriate and advisable to say "Cueball's computer is set to another layout, most likely Dvorak". | ||
− | As for the concept that pressing Shift can't do anything, try pressing Shift 8 times in a row (within about 5 seconds) on a standard installation of Windows 7 (not sure if they changed this in Windows 8 or 10). I've accidentally done this on occasion - pressing Shift then releasing it in indecision about if I want to start with a capital letter - it's the "Shortcut" to trigger an accessibility option about the shift key, I think for pressing it to toggle it on until the next key press, like on an iPad virtual keyboard. I trigger it often enough that I try to remember to do it on purpose just to turn off the shortcut. Ctrl has something similar, and one of them has something pop up when you hold it down too long (THAT might be the Shift key, it might be Ctrl that's quick presses). - NiceGuy1 [[Special:Contributions/162.158.126.76|162.158.126.76]] 05:54, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | + | As for the concept that pressing Shift can't do anything, try pressing Shift 8 times in a row (within about 5 seconds) on a standard installation of Windows 7 (not sure if they changed this in Windows 8 or 10). I've accidentally done this on occasion - pressing Shift then releasing it in indecision about if I want to start with a capital letter - it's the "Shortcut" to trigger an accessibility option about the shift key, I think for pressing it to toggle it on until the next key press, like on an iPad virtual keyboard. I trigger it often enough that I try to remember to do it on purpose just to turn off the shortcut. Ctrl has something similar, and one of them has something pop up when you hold it down too long (THAT might be the Shift key, it might be Ctrl that's quick presses). - NiceGuy1 [[Special:Contributions/162.158.126.76|162.158.126.76]] 05:54, 8 March 2017 (UTC) |
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::I'm not nasty, I've just carried on discussions started by others here. But talking against that overwhelming explanations and transcript is a little bit like running against windmills. Nevertheless we recently came to some conclusions: | ::I'm not nasty, I've just carried on discussions started by others here. But talking against that overwhelming explanations and transcript is a little bit like running against windmills. Nevertheless we recently came to some conclusions: | ||
::*The transcripts should be shortened to the content important for the jokes. | ::*The transcripts should be shortened to the content important for the jokes. | ||
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::So let's focus on the comic -- less is often more! This wiki is primarily for the readers.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 14:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | ::So let's focus on the comic -- less is often more! This wiki is primarily for the readers.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 14:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
:::Well you make me fell like I'm not doing any good to this site by the way you word you complaints, so to me it has been nasty to come back here over the last few weeks to read what you have written. I have been using this same system for adding info for about three years, and you are the first that comes with all these objections. I have concurred with the transcript details not because of your comments but because of a guy with problems with his vision telling us how it works for him with the transcript here. That was nice to have some feedback like that. But that discussion has nothing to do with what happens to this comics explanation! --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 18:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | :::Well you make me fell like I'm not doing any good to this site by the way you word you complaints, so to me it has been nasty to come back here over the last few weeks to read what you have written. I have been using this same system for adding info for about three years, and you are the first that comes with all these objections. I have concurred with the transcript details not because of your comments but because of a guy with problems with his vision telling us how it works for him with the transcript here. That was nice to have some feedback like that. But that discussion has nothing to do with what happens to this comics explanation! --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 18:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
+ | :::Re: Nasty, take for example the comment before mine, where someone asked if this should be added to the Dvorak category. Now, I agree that the answer is "No" (though I'm sure it's a closer call for me than you). But your wording - without the benefit of facial cues and tone of voice - reads as very blunt and rude (plus repetitive, I almost want to count how many times you've said some form of "No Dvorak", you seem to really be aggravated on such a minor point). I might have said "Well, as the comic does not mention that Cueball's layout is set to Dvorak, it doesn't seem appropriate to add this one to the category." | ||
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+ | :::However, generally Cueball IS Randall, or rather an imaginary alter ego. Someone Randall uses to play out his thoughts. I'm sure Randall DOES indeed have some non-standard settings (like his keyboard probably IS set to Dvorak, which would be inconvenient to anyone using his laptop), and this thought occurred to him, so he imagined other more obnoxious things to do to a laptop - even ones which aren't possible - then he wrote this comic to play out what he was imagining. | ||
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+ | :::While Dvorak is not mentioned, it is likely, as I said. Which would call for at least a mention, such as "likely Dvorak", and in a more important place than trivia. Perhaps even a quick explanation, "likely Dvorak, a layout some computer-savvy people use on the theory that it allows for faster typing". ANY further than that would indeed be better suited to the trivia section. | ||
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+ | :::And I SWEAR I've had something which treated the shift keys different, probably some game, probably some DOS game. And I swear I've seen something use both shift keys together like this. - NiceGuy1 [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.82|108.162.219.82]] 06:47, 10 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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::::I'm not "the first that comes with all these objections", I was just picking up others comments. Correct is: I'm the only one holding up this discussion. And sorry, but I can't talk to unregistered IP addresses, and a simple UNDO on some edits would be easy to keep them quiet but I don't do that because I'm friendly. Nevertheless, the is no Dvorak in this comic and so it has to be explained without. In this case a speculation about Dvorak could be mentioned as a guess -- and I can speculate about a French keyboard from Canada -- but it doesn't explain the puns.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:07, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ::::I'm not "the first that comes with all these objections", I was just picking up others comments. Correct is: I'm the only one holding up this discussion. And sorry, but I can't talk to unregistered IP addresses, and a simple UNDO on some edits would be easy to keep them quiet but I don't do that because I'm friendly. Nevertheless, the is no Dvorak in this comic and so it has to be explained without. In this case a speculation about Dvorak could be mentioned as a guess -- and I can speculate about a French keyboard from Canada -- but it doesn't explain the puns.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:07, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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− | : | + | :::::As someone born AND raised AND in Quebec, it's safe to say Cueball isn't using a French Canadian keyboard. :) On a French Canadian keyboard, it's still QWERTY, all the letters and numbers are the same, this layout only messes with the symbols. Such a warning would be overkill, leaving the keyboard as Cueball has it would only be a minor irritation. And as the comic has a clear American bent, other languages are simply less likely. |
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− | + | :::::And, to not start another comment block, my other thoughts are as such: relegating things to the Trivia section should be reserved for less relevant items. Dvorak - despite not being explicitly stated - is far too relevant here. Sure, no lengthy explanation should be included, but a mere mention would be appropriate and called for. As Kynde states, I'm sure many people stop reading at the transcript (such as myself... I don't need the transcript, so I don't read it. I usually only find the Trivia section by wanting to check the Comment section). Also, referencing related comics seem like they do indeed belong in the main Description. Again, people might not reach the Trivia section, and if the connection is clear enough, it's quite relevant and great to include. I'll often click / tap such links to remind myself of the other comic and see how they're related. - NiceGuy1 [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.82|108.162.219.82]] 07:50, 10 March 2017 (UTC) | |
− | ::::As someone born AND raised AND in Quebec, it's safe to say Cueball isn't using a French Canadian keyboard. :) On a French Canadian keyboard, it's still QWERTY, all the letters and numbers are the same, this layout only messes with the symbols. Such a warning would be overkill, leaving the keyboard as Cueball has it would only be a minor irritation. And as the comic has a clear American bent, other languages are simply less likely. | ||
− | ::::And, to not start another comment block, my other thoughts are as such: relegating things to the Trivia section should be reserved for less relevant items. Dvorak - despite not being explicitly stated - is far too relevant here. Sure, no lengthy explanation should be included, but a mere mention would be appropriate and called for. As Kynde states, I'm sure many people stop reading at the transcript (such as myself... I don't need the transcript, so I don't read it. I usually only find the Trivia section by wanting to check the Comment section). Also, referencing related comics seem like they do indeed belong in the main Description. Again, people might not reach the Trivia section, and if the connection is clear enough, it's quite relevant and great to include. I'll often click / tap such links to remind myself of the other comic and see how they're related. - NiceGuy1 [[Special:Contributions/108.162.219.82|108.162.219.82]] 07:50 | ||
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:Thanks a lot NiceGuy1. This is what I have tried to say, but then it is just perceived as ''a first hint of learning''... (see above under Cueball Not Randall). Lately everything we, the other editors, have done is being talked down by Dgbrt to the extend that I do not feel the same joy of coming here to edit, which I have enjoyed quite a lot the last few years... I do not know why Dgbrt think that he knows better than the rest of us, and the last couple of years there have been no incidence with so many negative edits or "shouting" NOT etc. in the incomplete tag. No problem saying something is incomplete or why it is thought to be. But it could be said a tat more diplomatic, so others do not feel their work is being degraded. I by the way agree that the chess explanation was long (and I hardly wrote any of it!) But I think some parts just needs to be put in a trivia section, as I did not know these things and much of it was relevant enough to fully understand what chess notation could mean. And Dgbrt's edit where he states that references to other relevant comics should not be allowed in the main comic explanation makes no sense to me. That is one of the main reasons to come here to find out. For instance where did I see a similar comic before. And not everyone makes it to the trivia, as most "normal" visitors probably do not even read the transcript. Finally, I have added several explanations in the category sections, which makes sense so recurring topics do not need to be explained every time, but can be referred to the category page, unlike what Dgbrt now has standing in the incomplete reason. And yes I do believe it makes sense to have it on the category page! --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 13:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | :Thanks a lot NiceGuy1. This is what I have tried to say, but then it is just perceived as ''a first hint of learning''... (see above under Cueball Not Randall). Lately everything we, the other editors, have done is being talked down by Dgbrt to the extend that I do not feel the same joy of coming here to edit, which I have enjoyed quite a lot the last few years... I do not know why Dgbrt think that he knows better than the rest of us, and the last couple of years there have been no incidence with so many negative edits or "shouting" NOT etc. in the incomplete tag. No problem saying something is incomplete or why it is thought to be. But it could be said a tat more diplomatic, so others do not feel their work is being degraded. I by the way agree that the chess explanation was long (and I hardly wrote any of it!) But I think some parts just needs to be put in a trivia section, as I did not know these things and much of it was relevant enough to fully understand what chess notation could mean. And Dgbrt's edit where he states that references to other relevant comics should not be allowed in the main comic explanation makes no sense to me. That is one of the main reasons to come here to find out. For instance where did I see a similar comic before. And not everyone makes it to the trivia, as most "normal" visitors probably do not even read the transcript. Finally, I have added several explanations in the category sections, which makes sense so recurring topics do not need to be explained every time, but can be referred to the category page, unlike what Dgbrt now has standing in the incomplete reason. And yes I do believe it makes sense to have it on the category page! --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 13:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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::I suggest you should put yourself more into a position of a reader.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 14:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | ::I suggest you should put yourself more into a position of a reader.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 14:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
:::This have nothing to do with the transcript discussion. I have not come to any agreement on the points you list above, and is completely in disagreement with most of it. Of course the pun should be explained, but I also think that any relevant reference to any other comic of recurring topic should be mentioned in the explanation. If the comic is directly relevant to some part in the current comic then it should be listed where the part that is relevant is explained. If it is similar comic I agree that they should go last. I do not at all agree with your category issue. A category is a great place to list stuff that is relevant to any comic in that category. If someone has used some time to find out interesting details pertaining to a given category it is great to have it there. Usually I put it in a collapsible section, so you do not have to read it or scroll past it to see the other comics in the category, and thus it should not bother anyone. And so far I have only heard of you that is bothered by it. It was your comments and incomplete reason that has been the reason for this debate and , who cares who started the debate. It is not the debate about transcripts here! --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 18:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | :::This have nothing to do with the transcript discussion. I have not come to any agreement on the points you list above, and is completely in disagreement with most of it. Of course the pun should be explained, but I also think that any relevant reference to any other comic of recurring topic should be mentioned in the explanation. If the comic is directly relevant to some part in the current comic then it should be listed where the part that is relevant is explained. If it is similar comic I agree that they should go last. I do not at all agree with your category issue. A category is a great place to list stuff that is relevant to any comic in that category. If someone has used some time to find out interesting details pertaining to a given category it is great to have it there. Usually I put it in a collapsible section, so you do not have to read it or scroll past it to see the other comics in the category, and thus it should not bother anyone. And so far I have only heard of you that is bothered by it. It was your comments and incomplete reason that has been the reason for this debate and , who cares who started the debate. It is not the debate about transcripts here! --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 18:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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About the double shift thing, that is a option you can pass to setxkbmap (in specific -option grp:shifts_toggle). This is a standard utility installed on both my arch linux and ubuntu machine. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.241.40|108.162.241.40]] 22:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | About the double shift thing, that is a option you can pass to setxkbmap (in specific -option grp:shifts_toggle). This is a standard utility installed on both my arch linux and ubuntu machine. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.241.40|108.162.241.40]] 22:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
:Thanks, but for Xorg I only can find "grp:alt_shift_toggle" -- meaning that alt and shift will switch their functions. I still can't find something like "left_shift" and "right_shift". Maybe Windows or iOS is different. Even the very complex configuration possibilities for IBM Client Access to connect to a 5250-screen on an AS400 supports only shift (not left or right) [https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSEQ5Y_5.9.0/com.ibm.pcomm.doc/books/html/emulator_reference11.htm].--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 00:17, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | :Thanks, but for Xorg I only can find "grp:alt_shift_toggle" -- meaning that alt and shift will switch their functions. I still can't find something like "left_shift" and "right_shift". Maybe Windows or iOS is different. Even the very complex configuration possibilities for IBM Client Access to connect to a 5250-screen on an AS400 supports only shift (not left or right) [https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSEQ5Y_5.9.0/com.ibm.pcomm.doc/books/html/emulator_reference11.htm].--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 00:17, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
::Why does Cueball have to be using a real, current OS? For many older readers of this comic, the reference to pressing both shift keys will remind them of using the very popular SideKick, a TSR (Terminate & Stay Resident) program on old Dos PCs. SideKick would stay in the background until its hotkey was pressed. One hotkey available to activate SideKick was to press both shift keys at the same time. To detect the hotkey, SideKick would hook onto the keyboard interrupt. Programs hooked to the keyboard interrupt got key scan codes and, yes, left and right shift key generated different scan codes. (My first comment, hopefully in the right format.)[[Special:Contributions/108.162.210.100|108.162.210.100]] 16:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ::Why does Cueball have to be using a real, current OS? For many older readers of this comic, the reference to pressing both shift keys will remind them of using the very popular SideKick, a TSR (Terminate & Stay Resident) program on old Dos PCs. SideKick would stay in the background until its hotkey was pressed. One hotkey available to activate SideKick was to press both shift keys at the same time. To detect the hotkey, SideKick would hook onto the keyboard interrupt. Programs hooked to the keyboard interrupt got key scan codes and, yes, left and right shift key generated different scan codes. (My first comment, hopefully in the right format.)[[Special:Contributions/108.162.210.100|108.162.210.100]] 16:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
:::Great history. My first PC had a 20 MByte hard drive (yes, not main memory -- that was 512 kByte) and NO mouse. Linux was not born and the monitors were just monochrome. By that time it was common to use Assembler to handle interrupts -- but do you really see this in the picture? For me it's a modern laptop.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:23, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | :::Great history. My first PC had a 20 MByte hard drive (yes, not main memory -- that was 512 kByte) and NO mouse. Linux was not born and the monitors were just monochrome. By that time it was common to use Assembler to handle interrupts -- but do you really see this in the picture? For me it's a modern laptop.--[[User:Dgbrt|Dgbrt]] ([[User talk:Dgbrt|talk]]) 19:23, 9 March 2017 (UTC) | ||
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