Editing Talk:2287: Pathogen Resistance

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Note that the title text says "not not" -- meaning we're both trapped in here together [[User:John.Adriaan|John.Adriaan]] ([[User talk:John.Adriaan|talk]]) 04:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:Randall fixed that. [[User:Jacky720|That's right, Jacky720 just signed this]] ([[User talk:Jacky720|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacky720|contribs]]) 16:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Do bacteriophages "afflict" humanity? To my knowledge, they only infect bacteria and are even considered a possible future alternative to antibiotics by some. What is up with them being represented here? 09:12, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
: Yeah, bacteriophage is just wrong here, it's a generic virus. This type of virus is depicted on the bacteriophage wikipedia page but viruses that affect humans can have that shape also. [[Special:Contributions/172.68.51.94|172.68.51.94]]
: There are no known human viruses of that shape (source: I'm a biologist), so this seems like more of a mistake on Randall's side (albeit an odd one for him to make, so perhaps somehow deliberate?). [[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.155|162.158.91.155]] 08:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::But... if it affects bacteria and humen have many bacteria (and many/most of them useful) in them, shouldn't it affect the human then as well? indirectly? Source: I have very vague knowledge :D --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::It may be deliberate in the sense that almost everyone will go "Oh, that's a virus!" when they see this shape, contrary to the other 2 which look more like big molecules or bacteria.[[Special:Contributions/162.158.111.7|162.158.111.7]] 09:20, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:: The bacteriophage point is now very nicely addressed in the explanation. Good job to all who contributed to that part! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.93.105|162.158.93.105]] 21:04, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Don’t worry, pathogens! All is not lost. There will always be some humans whose brains don’t work very well, who will buy into ideas like “vaccines cause autism”, or “faith healing”, or “natural remedies”, or “Trump is always right”. You’ll still have hosts. [[User:Tualha|Tualha]] ([[User talk:Tualha|talk]]) 07:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC) 
:That's right [[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.158|108.162.216.158]] 13:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::Not really "always". Those might eventually go extinct. Assuming this kind of stupidity is hereditary ... -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:::Arthur C. Clarke said decades ago "It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."  Likewise the hope the COVID-19 pandemic will eliminate people based on their unintelligent behavior is not proven.  Based on limited data I am guessing the behavior of people around us affect our survival more then our own behavior.[[User:Godzilla|Godzilla]] ([[User talk:Godzilla|talk]]) 13:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC) 

Bacteriophages only infect bacteria and some kinds of Archaea, not humans, so the explanation is slightly wrong. They are probably the prettiest and easiest to recognise viral shape though, which is why they are so commonly used in cartoons and illustrations.[[User:Phil|Phil]] ([[User talk:Phil|talk]]) 08:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:I am just as much a hobby-virologist as anybody else suddenly is, but I have no clue what you are talking about. I don't even know which of the 3 shapes you mean. So please edit the explanation yourself if you see, that it is wrong. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 08:37, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:: The narrator-virus in the middle of the three, that looks somewhat like a rotation of a mosquito, with a D20 on top.  [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage#/media/File:PhageExterior.svg Wikipedia diagram]  [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.13|141.101.69.13]] 12:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:::D20 systems have a lot to answer for. The original D6 Star Wars worked well enough, and now I learn the D20 version spread viruses! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.34.210|162.158.34.210]] 11:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

"They bought lots of pasta."  More like they bought lots of toilet paper!  Humans, when we think rationally, can make great things happen.  Humans, when we panic, can make incredibly foolish decisions.  [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 11:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:It's both. At least in the supermarkets close to my place (western Germany), pasta, toilet paper, rice, milk, flour, yeast are all common to be out of stock or almost out of stock and usually their shelfes have by now signs that they will only sell a certain amount of them to each customer. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 12:14, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Why does one of the voices say, "I hate lungs"? --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.62|108.162.216.62]] 13:08, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:To emphasize that they really do want to destroy those lungs. All good here. 13:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::It actually doesn't make sense. Pathogens LOVE lungs - it's a great place for them to have party in. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:::I always imagined it was just a reiteration of a past conversation, to whit something like: "Not another lung? We never get to see anything else. Really, George, I don't know why you keep on booking the same old package deal ''every'' time we go abroad. You know, Janice's family always try something different. Instead of just flying in and sitting on the lung all the time they do exciting things like camping out on an interesting door handle then hitching rides on fingers into noses, or even dining out and taking a chance on an unwashed cup to introduce them to an interesting new throat..." [[Special:Contributions/162.158.34.210|162.158.34.210]] 11:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

This comic is a positive message giving good advice to people on how to beat the current COVID-19 spread.  But the numbers clearly show it is not working (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-52066105/coronavirus-us-death-rates-v-china-italy-and-south-Korea, and many other locations on the internet.)  Continuing to believe this pandemic can be beat with only lock-downs, hand washing and telling people to not do things they do naturally without thinking, is the public health equivalent of engineering design with friction-less surfaces and mass-less pullies.  We need solutions that understand human nature and tell people to do things they actually will do, not keep saying the same things over and over again despite experience screaming at us that people are not doing it.  The 6 places that have controlled the outbreak (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Japan) have used different methods of testing, tracing, isolating, restricting travel, etc., but the one thing they have in common is a large portion of the population is wearing masks in public.  The 5 places with the largest uncontrolled outbreaks (USA (especially NYC) Italy, Spain, Germany and France) are all using the same lock down strategy and all have public health officials discouraging /  preventing people from wearing masks in public.  This should not be hard to figure out. And saying the limited supply of masks need to go to certain people, not working to increase the number of masks, is what failure looks like. {{unsigned|Godzilla}}
:You know that it's possible to make a mask from piece of fabric at home? It may not be as good as professional mask but would still provide some sort of protection. Also, the amount of masks will go up if China starts making them ... -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:Masks like the 1.2 million defective ones that a Chinese manufacturer sold to the Dutch government for the care workers? Or the simpler ones that Dutch experts say aren't effective because they're bound to be used incorrectly and thus give a false sense of security? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.54.219|172.69.54.219]] 18:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:In a situation like the current one it is wise even for expert epidemiologists, virologists and medical practitioners to be very careful in their assumptions, analyses and conclusions. For anyone with little or no expertise in those fields, that goes doubly so. Note, for instance, that the regions you name as having controlled the outbreak also have very different social customs from those you name as uncontrolled. To an Italian, the everyday way Asians (excuse the generalizations) interact with each other is pretty much equivalent to "social distancing". When you regularly shake hands or hug (and then touch your nose or eyes, which people do constantly and subconsciously), the mask is not protective. In other words, there are many factors beyond simply wearing masks that can explain the current differences in virus spread, if such differences are even real (the current numbers are heavily skewed by test availability and criteria for who gets tested). More generally, we currently simply do not have enough information to confidently answer all the questions about this disease and how we should best combat it. Thus, I would recommend using expressions such as "this should not be hard to figure out" sparingly, especially given the knowledge that many very smart and highly trained people are working on "figuring it out"... [[Special:Contributions/162.158.93.105|162.158.93.105]] 21:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
::I agree it's not so trivial to figure out, but also that we should both start wearing masks and stop with the shaking hands - both is easy enough to try. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:::"In a situation like the current one it is wise even for expert epidemiologists, virologists and medical practitioners to be very careful in their assumptions, analyses and conclusions. For anyone with little or no expertise in those fields, that goes doubly so. Note, for instance, that the regions you name as having controlled the outbreak also have very different social customs from those you name as uncontrolled. To an Italian, the everyday way Asians (excuse the generalizations) interact with each other is pretty much equivalent to "social distancing"."
These statements are true.  It is also true the the 6 places that have controlled the outbreak the best have very different social customs from each other.  Likewise with the 5 places where the outbreak is spreading the most; Germans generally do not behave in public like Italians, but both cultures are experiencing similar 2-3 day double rates.
"...given the knowledge that many very smart and highly trained people are working on "figuring it out"..."  We all know countless examples in history of "very smart and highly trained people" being wrong for very long periods of time (no-such-things-as-germs, the-earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe, etc.)  And the differences in the spread of this outbreak in different countries is not trivial; it is spreading 10s or 100s of time faster in some places then others.  These differences are not being explained adequately by the "very smart and highly trained people".  At some point we need to realize what we are being told does not match what we are seeing.  When we do we will start solving the problem. [[User:Godzilla|Godzilla]] ([[User talk:Godzilla|talk]]) 13:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC) 

(Hey, people have been putting replies to someone else's unsigned comment under my joke. Lemme just move mine down here. -Jacky720)
{|class="wikitable"
|
Pathogens: ''infect humans through day-to-day contact''<br />
Humans: ''stop day-to-day contact''<br />
Humans: Checkmate.
|}
[[User:Jacky720|That's right, Jacky720 just signed this]] ([[User talk:Jacky720|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacky720|contribs]]) 16:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

OK the news is saying the CDC is reconsidering their position on the public wearing masks.  Note it is not you wearing a mask that protects you, but everyone else wearing one, including the people with the virus who do not show symptoms.  The mask catches many of the droplets infected people exhale, sneeze or cough out.  This reduces the amount of virus droplets in the air for you to breath in, reduced the virus on surfaces you touch and then bring to your face with your hand, etc..

Here is the one study on home made masks, finding them to be roughly 1/3 as effective as commercial masks:  [http://https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0921A05A69A9419C862FA2F35F819D55/S1935789313000438a.pdf/testing_the_efficacy_of_homemade_masks_would_they_protect_in_an_influenza_pandemic.pdf Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks]

Here is one (of many) source for making a mask:  [http://https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2020/4/1/21203241/coronavirus-diy-face-mask-homemade-tutorials Everything you need to know about making your own face mask]

[[User:Godzilla|Godzilla]] ([[User talk:Godzilla|talk]]) 23:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 ::Not really "always". Those might eventually go extinct. Assuming this kind of stupidity is hereditary ... -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 :::Arthur C. Clarke said decades ago "It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."  Likewise the hope the COVID-19 pandemic will eliminate people based on their unintelligent behavior is not proven.  Based on limited data I am guessing the behavior of people around us affect our survival more then our own behavior.[[User:Godzilla|Godzilla]] ([[User talk:Godzilla|talk]]) 13:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
-::::I'm not speaking about stupid people in general, but specifically about antivaxers. THOSE might be completely eradicated by some epidemic. Maybe not this one - definitely not before we find some vaccine for it (although, you know, there ARE some reports about TB vaccine having some effect) - but eventually ... hmmm ... actually, that would be quite effective pattern. Imagine some new patogen related to some we already vaccinate against but much more contagious. All people not vaccinated could be dead before we realize what they have in common and what allows the other to survive it. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 00:22, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
 Bacteriophages only infect bacteria and some kinds of Archaea, not humans, so the explanation is slightly wrong. They are probably the prettiest and easiest to recognise viral shape though, which is why they are so commonly used in cartoons and illustrations.[[User:Phil|Phil]] ([[User talk:Phil|talk]]) 08:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 24: / Line 23: @@
 "They bought lots of pasta."  More like they bought lots of toilet paper!  Humans, when we think rationally, can make great things happen.  Humans, when we panic, can make incredibly foolish decisions.  [[User:Nutster|Nutster]] ([[User talk:Nutster|talk]]) 11:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 :It's both. At least in the supermarkets close to my place (western Germany), pasta, toilet paper, rice, milk, flour, yeast are all common to be out of stock or almost out of stock and usually their shelfes have by now signs that they will only sell a certain amount of them to each customer. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 12:14, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
-::Here in Italy toilet paper was never missing, whereas in some supermarket there was a pasta shortage (except for ''pennette lisce'', obviously, which nobody likes so they stayed on the shelves).
-::--[[Special:Contributions/188.114.102.160|188.114.102.160]] 03:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
-:Any chance this reveals Randall as a secret Pastafarian? [[Special:Contributions/162.158.34.46|162.158.34.46]] 13:23, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 Why does one of the voices say, "I hate lungs"? --[[Special:Contributions/108.162.216.62|108.162.216.62]] 13:08, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
-:Isn't it just a reference to Grouchy Smurf ? [[Special:Contributions/108.162.229.210|108.162.229.210]] 08:27, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 :To emphasize that they really do want to destroy those lungs. All good here. 13:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 ::It actually doesn't make sense. Pathogens LOVE lungs - it's a great place for them to have party in. -- [[User:Hkmaly|Hkmaly]] ([[User talk:Hkmaly|talk]]) 22:17, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 43: / Line 36: @@
 These statements are true.  It is also true the the 6 places that have controlled the outbreak the best have very different social customs from each other.  Likewise with the 5 places where the outbreak is spreading the most; Germans generally do not behave in public like Italians, but both cultures are experiencing similar 2-3 day double rates.
 "...given the knowledge that many very smart and highly trained people are working on "figuring it out"..."  We all know countless examples in history of "very smart and highly trained people" being wrong for very long periods of time (no-such-things-as-germs, the-earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe, etc.)  And the differences in the spread of this outbreak in different countries is not trivial; it is spreading 10s or 100s of time faster in some places then others.  These differences are not being explained adequately by the "very smart and highly trained people".  At some point we need to realize what we are being told does not match what we are seeing.  When we do we will start solving the problem. [[User:Godzilla|Godzilla]] ([[User talk:Godzilla|talk]]) 13:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
-:To summarize your argument: Because even experts *can* be wrong (true!) we should always critically evaluate any information we receive (fully agree!). If in doing so we recognize an apparently obvious and seemingly reasonable pattern, we should assume our conclusions are true (uh-oh) and the experts must be wrong (uuuh) and we should announce our truth on the internet while deriding others' efforts to handle the crisis (ouf). You may be right about the masks, you may not be right. Time and more research will surely tell. Either way, however, I hope you can appreciate why someone might take issue with your approach to the problem. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/162.158.91.101|162.158.91.101]] 12:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 (Hey, people have been putting replies to someone else's unsigned comment under my joke. Lemme just move mine down here. -Jacky720)
@@ Line 54: / Line 46: @@
 [[User:Jacky720|That's right, Jacky720 just signed this]] ([[User talk:Jacky720|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jacky720|contribs]]) 16:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
-:Coccus bacteria: It's not over, right? They can't sustain this. They must be bored and tired.<br />
+OK the news is saying the CDC is reconsidering their position on the public wearing masks.  Note it is not you wearing a mask that protects you, but everyone else wearing one, including the people with the virus who do not show symptoms.  The mask catches many of the droplets infected people exhale, sneeze or cough out.  This reduces the amount of virus droplets in the air for you to breath in, reduced the virus on surfaces you touch and then bring to your face with your hand, etc..
-:Coccus bacteria: Will they give up?<br /><br />
-:
-:2 Years Later...<br />
-:Yes, we absolutely gave up. Some parts of the population did so instantly, and are even doing things to assist the disease. It is never going to end now.
-:--[[User:Davidgro|davidgro]] ([[User talk:Davidgro|talk]]) 21:44, 17 June 2022 (UTC)<br />
-OK the news is saying the CDC is reconsidering their position on the public wearing masks.  Note it is not you wearing a mask that protects you, but everyone else wearing one, including the people with the virus who do not show symptoms.  The mask catches many of the droplets infected people exhale, sneeze or cough out.  This reduces the amount of virus containing droplets in the air for you to breath in, reduces the virus on surfaces you touch and then bring to your face with your hand, etc.
-Here is the one study on home made masks, finding them to be roughly 1/3 as effective as surgical masks:  [https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0921A05A69A9419C862FA2F35F819D55/S1935789313000438a.pdf/testing_the_efficacy_of_homemade_masks_would_they_protect_in_an_influenza_pandemic.pdf Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks]
+Here is the one study on home made masks, finding them to be roughly 1/3 as effective as commercial masks:  [http://https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0921A05A69A9419C862FA2F35F819D55/S1935789313000438a.pdf/testing_the_efficacy_of_homemade_masks_would_they_protect_in_an_influenza_pandemic.pdf Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks]
-Here is one of a few studies showing the public wearing masks is effective against the spread of the flu, colds, etc:
+Here is one (of many) source for making a mask:  [http://https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2020/4/1/21203241/coronavirus-diy-face-mask-homemade-tutorials Everything you need to know about making your own face mask]
-[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6993921/pdf/CD006207.pdf Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses]
-Here is one (of many) source for making a mask:  [https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2020/4/1/21203241/coronavirus-diy-face-mask-homemade-tutorials Everything you need to know about making your own face mask]
 [[User:Godzilla|Godzilla]] ([[User talk:Godzilla|talk]]) 23:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
-The text on xkcd.com just below the logo has been changed to read "Note: For technical reasons Wednesday's comic will be posted Thursday instead. Apologies for the delay!" Not sure if that's worth mentioning anywhere here, or on tomorrow's explanation once the Thursday comic goes up. [[User:Ijpete98|Ijpete98]] ([[User talk:Ijpete98|talk]]) 03:25, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
-:We shouldn't rule out some type of April Fool's Day joke! [[User:Ianrbibtitlht|Ianrbibtitlht]] ([[User talk:Ianrbibtitlht|talk]]) 04:55, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
-:: As far as I'm concerned, the question is whether he has something with elaborate Javascript that he's still working on lined up for slightly belated April Fool's, or is the delay itself the joke, in a way that might make more sense once we do see it? Time will tell. -- [[User:KarMann|KarMann]] ([[User talk:KarMann|talk]]) 11:10, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
-:::He ended up postponing the April Fool's joke [[Garden]] for three days because it was too complex. SO sounds like it is this. Was wondering if he would do one after all these corona comics. --[[User:Kynde|Kynde]] ([[User talk:Kynde|talk]]) 14:15, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
-Didn't rabies discover the solution to this? It affects the brain and causes changes in behavior that help it spread. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 16:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
-I really wish I had ever been as optimistic about it as Randall here. Even more, I wish I had been wrong not to be.
---[[User:Davidgro|davidgro]] ([[User talk:Davidgro|talk]]) 21:48, 17 June 2022 (UTC)