Editing Talk:2435: Geothmetic Meandian
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Besides of nerdgasm is there some reason why the program code is relevant for the explanation? [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 08:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | Besides of nerdgasm is there some reason why the program code is relevant for the explanation? [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 08:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
:Apparently not. I moved it to the trivia section. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 07:51, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | :Apparently not. I moved it to the trivia section. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 07:51, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
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== Proof of convergence == | == Proof of convergence == | ||
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:For something as simple as this, I always find it cheating to use a package to abstract away the few actually necessary calculations. You might as well use a DWIM module and do 'result = DWIM(input)' as the sole command. But that's me for you. I'd write my own direct-to-memory screen RAM accesses, if silly things like OS HALs and GPU acceleration (once you find a way to message them as directly as possible) hadn't long since made that pretty much moot, if not actually verboten... [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.109|141.101.99.109]] 17:53, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | :For something as simple as this, I always find it cheating to use a package to abstract away the few actually necessary calculations. You might as well use a DWIM module and do 'result = DWIM(input)' as the sole command. But that's me for you. I'd write my own direct-to-memory screen RAM accesses, if silly things like OS HALs and GPU acceleration (once you find a way to message them as directly as possible) hadn't long since made that pretty much moot, if not actually verboten... [[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.109|141.101.99.109]] 17:53, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
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== Sloppy notation? == | == Sloppy notation? == | ||
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As a mathematician, I immediately noticed a couple of annoying niggles. Firstly, it is only implied, but never clearly stated, that the input list is ordered - which means the median is wrong unless ordered. Now F outputs an ordered triple of real numbers, and in calculating G, this is fed in to F again directly. This will frequently give inputs that are not in order, and in subsequent iterations the "median" will always be the middle number - i.e. the geometric mean - regardless of the actual median. Secondly, Randall's final line gives the output of G as a single number, but as it is just the result of a repeated application of F, the output of G should be an ordered triple. I'm sure Randall is aware of both, and chose to cut out the implied ordering of the inputs and choosing one of the three values as the output of G as they aren't necessary for the joke, but maybe we should note something about this in the explanation.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.109|141.101.99.109]] 13:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | As a mathematician, I immediately noticed a couple of annoying niggles. Firstly, it is only implied, but never clearly stated, that the input list is ordered - which means the median is wrong unless ordered. Now F outputs an ordered triple of real numbers, and in calculating G, this is fed in to F again directly. This will frequently give inputs that are not in order, and in subsequent iterations the "median" will always be the middle number - i.e. the geometric mean - regardless of the actual median. Secondly, Randall's final line gives the output of G as a single number, but as it is just the result of a repeated application of F, the output of G should be an ordered triple. I'm sure Randall is aware of both, and chose to cut out the implied ordering of the inputs and choosing one of the three values as the output of G as they aren't necessary for the joke, but maybe we should note something about this in the explanation.[[Special:Contributions/141.101.99.109|141.101.99.109]] 13:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
:First, I've never seen a definition of median which doesn't account for ordering itself, although I am a little annoyed at his definition for a different reason— that it doesn't account for even-length lists. Second, what I got from the comic initially is that G<sub>MDN</sub> is supposed to be a single number, specifically that value for which all three of its elements would become equal if implemented infinitely many times (and it ''will'' converge, because if the three elements are all the same it already has converged, and if at least two are different, both means will necessarily become greater than the least value and smaller than the greatest value due to the definition of 'mean'). Another annoyance I noted is that G<sub>MDN</sub> is real iff there are an even number of negative numbers and/or the length of the initial list is odd, but I suppose that can't be helped. Ooh, complex meandianing! [[User:BlackHat|BlackHat]] ([[User talk:BlackHat|talk]]) 15:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | :First, I've never seen a definition of median which doesn't account for ordering itself, although I am a little annoyed at his definition for a different reason— that it doesn't account for even-length lists. Second, what I got from the comic initially is that G<sub>MDN</sub> is supposed to be a single number, specifically that value for which all three of its elements would become equal if implemented infinitely many times (and it ''will'' converge, because if the three elements are all the same it already has converged, and if at least two are different, both means will necessarily become greater than the least value and smaller than the greatest value due to the definition of 'mean'). Another annoyance I noted is that G<sub>MDN</sub> is real iff there are an even number of negative numbers and/or the length of the initial list is odd, but I suppose that can't be helped. Ooh, complex meandianing! [[User:BlackHat|BlackHat]] ([[User talk:BlackHat|talk]]) 15:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
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== Is the arithmetic-geometric mean connected to geometry? == | == Is the arithmetic-geometric mean connected to geometry? == | ||
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R = GMDN(a,b,c) | R = GMDN(a,b,c) | ||
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=== The RandallMunroe Set === | === The RandallMunroe Set === | ||
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result = y(2); | result = y(2); | ||
end | end | ||
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== Proof - Possibly by Induction == | == Proof - Possibly by Induction == | ||
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With the following notation: max(n) == max(An,Bn,Cn), ave(n)==ave(An,Bn,Cn), ..<br> | With the following notation: max(n) == max(An,Bn,Cn), ave(n)==ave(An,Bn,Cn), ..<br> | ||
We observe the following emperically for many different inputs:<br> | We observe the following emperically for many different inputs:<br> | ||
+ | IF max(n)==ave(n) THEN min(n+1)=geomean(n+1) AND max(n+1)=median(n+1)=geomean(n)<br> | ||
+ | IF min(n)==geomean(n) THEN min(n+1)=median(n+1)=ave(n) AND max(n+1)=ave(n+1)<br> | ||
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+ | In other words, the maximum at each iteration alternates between the average and the median, and the minimum alternates between the geomean and the median. <br> | ||
+ | When the geomean is the minimum, then the minimum is fixed while the maximum decreases at n+1.<br> | ||
+ | Whereas when the average is the maximum, then the maximum is fixed while the minimum increases at n+1.<br> | ||
+ | Thus either the minimum or the maximum at n+1 are always converging away from the minimum and maximum at previous n.<br> | ||
+ | While this is not a formal proof, since the observations are emperical, I believe that a proof-by-induction can be built based on the oscillating convergence (without the need for F to be differentiable):<br> | ||
R(n) = max(n)-min(n)<br> | R(n) = max(n)-min(n)<br> | ||
− | + | Case 1: max(n)=ave(n), implying max(n+1)=median(n+1)=geomean(n) and min(n+1)=geomean(n+1)<br> | |
− | In this case max(n+1) is fixed to a previous value, | + | In this case max(n+1) is fixed to a previous value, geomean(n) and min(n+1) takes on the new geomean(n+1) which is guaranteed to reduce the range R(n) as min(n) < geomean(n+1) < max(n). It also implies case 2 must be invoked at n+1, because min(n+1)=geomean(n+1)<br> |
− | + | Case 2: min(n)=geomean(n), implying max(n+1)=ave(n+1) and min(n+1)=median(n+1)=ave(n)<br> | |
− | In this case min(n+1) is fixed to a previous value, | + | In this case min(n+1) is fixed to a previous value, ave(n) and max(n+1) takes on the new ave(n+1) which is guaranteed to reduce the range R(n) as min(n) < ave(n+1) < max(n). It also implies case 1 must be invoked at n+1, because max(n+1)=ave(n+1)<br> |
<br> | <br> | ||
Each case forces the range to be reduced while also forcing the alternate case on the next iteration.<br> | Each case forces the range to be reduced while also forcing the alternate case on the next iteration.<br> | ||
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[[User:Ramakarl|Ramakarl]] ([[User talk:Ramakarl|talk]]) 00:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | [[User:Ramakarl|Ramakarl]] ([[User talk:Ramakarl|talk]]) 00:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
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:How can this be formulated as a PDE when F isn't even differentiable? | :How can this be formulated as a PDE when F isn't even differentiable? | ||
:Besides, R(Fn+1) < R(Fn) does not imply limit R(Fn) = 0 (Think R(n) := 1+1/n). -- [[User:Xorg|Xorg]] ([[User talk:Xorg|talk]]) 02:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | :Besides, R(Fn+1) < R(Fn) does not imply limit R(Fn) = 0 (Think R(n) := 1+1/n). -- [[User:Xorg|Xorg]] ([[User talk:Xorg|talk]]) 02:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
− | + | Agree F is not differentiable due to median. For arbitrary R(n) such as R(n)=1+1/n then limit R(Fn) != 0, however I do not define R(n) arbitrarily but define it as R(n)=max(An,Bn,Cn)-min(An,Bn,Cn) --Ramakarl<br> | |
[[User:snark]] | [[User:snark]] | ||
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starting point (x1,x2,x3) and the line given by (x(t),x(t),x(t)). Next you calculate the distance between f((x1,x2,x3)) and the line | starting point (x1,x2,x3) and the line given by (x(t),x(t),x(t)). Next you calculate the distance between f((x1,x2,x3)) and the line | ||
and show that is is less than the first distance. | and show that is is less than the first distance. | ||
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== Why is this funny? == | == Why is this funny? == | ||
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I am impressed with how much people know. After all that explanation, can anyone tell me if there is anything comical about this comic? | I am impressed with how much people know. After all that explanation, can anyone tell me if there is anything comical about this comic? | ||
Aside from the fact that Randal is combining formulas that don't usually get combined, is there anything here that strikes anyone as funny? The previous one about people asking absurd questions about what they could do after they are vaccinated had me laughing out loud. Can anyone tell me that they laughed at this comic and what was funny? Thanks. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 01:56, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | Aside from the fact that Randal is combining formulas that don't usually get combined, is there anything here that strikes anyone as funny? The previous one about people asking absurd questions about what they could do after they are vaccinated had me laughing out loud. Can anyone tell me that they laughed at this comic and what was funny? Thanks. [[User:Rtanenbaum|Rtanenbaum]] ([[User talk:Rtanenbaum|talk]]) 01:56, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
− | :YMMV, but I found it funny because I just spent the last fortnight teaching how to find mean (and median, and quartiles for that matter) to 15/16yrolds. And they found that hard enough. I did not inform them of Geometric mean. I guess it's funny | + | :YMMV, but I found it funny because I just spent the last fortnight teaching how to find mean (and median, and quartiles for that matter) to 15/16yrolds. And they found that hard enough. I did not inform them of Geometric mean. I guess it's funny because it's such a long reach. [[User:Thisfox|Thisfox]] ([[User talk:Thisfox|talk]]) 02:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC) |
::No, the joke is quite clearly explained in the text below the formula: "Pro Tip: If in doubt just mash them together". [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 07:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ::No, the joke is quite clearly explained in the text below the formula: "Pro Tip: If in doubt just mash them together". [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 07:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
::As I'm currently supposed to be working someone else should please add this with a proper formulation. I just re-added the incomplete tag. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 08:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ::As I'm currently supposed to be working someone else should please add this with a proper formulation. I just re-added the incomplete tag. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 08:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
:: @Rtanenbaum funny you should give previous comic as example, as it is funny for exactly the same reason: using absurdity. The only difference is *most* people will get it why it is absurd to ride bicycle down the stairs in someones house (while it is OK to use bike outside, and it is OK to visit if you're vaccinated and thus use the stairs in someones house, BUT it is combining those unrelated activities that is absurd). Same thing here, only it requires some math background: using median has its uses, as does using geometric and arithmetic means, but it is combining them in this fashion that is absurd. And especially the recommendation to "mash mathematical functions you obviously don't understand as substitute to choosing correct one" is absurd. It is like you don't know you have to ADD prices of items on your receipt to calculate the total, so someone recommended you to use some random combination of mathematical operations to calculate the total. (with a added twist that suggested combination would return some result which is not far off the calculation). In addition, the fact that some people do not understand why it is funny (so might take such absurd recommendation seriously) makes it even more funny.--[[Special:Contributions/172.68.221.46|172.68.221.46]] 09:49, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | :: @Rtanenbaum funny you should give previous comic as example, as it is funny for exactly the same reason: using absurdity. The only difference is *most* people will get it why it is absurd to ride bicycle down the stairs in someones house (while it is OK to use bike outside, and it is OK to visit if you're vaccinated and thus use the stairs in someones house, BUT it is combining those unrelated activities that is absurd). Same thing here, only it requires some math background: using median has its uses, as does using geometric and arithmetic means, but it is combining them in this fashion that is absurd. And especially the recommendation to "mash mathematical functions you obviously don't understand as substitute to choosing correct one" is absurd. It is like you don't know you have to ADD prices of items on your receipt to calculate the total, so someone recommended you to use some random combination of mathematical operations to calculate the total. (with a added twist that suggested combination would return some result which is not far off the calculation). In addition, the fact that some people do not understand why it is funny (so might take such absurd recommendation seriously) makes it even more funny.--[[Special:Contributions/172.68.221.46|172.68.221.46]] 09:49, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
::Apparantly someone deleted the tag again without giving a further explanation... I will undo this change. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 09:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ::Apparantly someone deleted the tag again without giving a further explanation... I will undo this change. [[User:Elektrizikekswerk|Elektrizikekswerk]] ([[User talk:Elektrizikekswerk|talk]]) 09:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | ||
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