Editing Talk:2832: Urban Planning Opinion Progression
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: Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around. | : Bikes are an incredibly helpful and useful tool for getting around. You don't even have to turn a city into Amsterdam. I live in Edmonton, which is by no means an urbanist utopia, and even getting around here, combining a bicycle with public transit makes it so much easier and faster to get around. The issue I face is lugging my bike with me, in which case a bike share service like Montréal's BIXI would help out for getting around. | ||
: Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | : Regarding your point on vacation, first of all, most people end up going to the same places for vacation anyway. And vacation without bringing a car can very much be done, and even at high-demand times, the places where "everyone needs a car" are places where everyone will be going anyway, at which point a train just makes more sense. About a decade ago, my family took a trip from New Delhi to Goa a decade back (around 1800 km away) and we took trains to get there. We rented a car to get around in Goa and it worked pretty well. Not saying that cars aren't useful at all, but they aren't a 100% necessity. They're most useful when you're heading somewhere that's out of the way, and I've done those sorts of trips too. [[User:Yaygya|Yaygya]] ([[User talk:Yaygya|talk]]) 23:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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"...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | "...by allowing cyclists to cycle in the streets with the cars". ''Allowing''? Sorry, but that's a very neo-biker (or "person on a bike", rather than an actual cyclist) attitude that unfortunately seems to pervade the mindset of drivers. At least in the UK, bicycles have been 'allowed' (indeed, obliged) to ride upon the roads, as of laws as far back as [http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 1885] and are legitimate road vehicles and also not supposed to be ridden on actual pavements(/sidewalks) where not explicitly allowed. Of course, the US has policies driven (c.f. jaywalking). But a bicycle is a road vehicle. Add extra permissive routes (in the same manner as allowing traffic of less than three tonnes over a bridge, without forcing everything within that limit to do so) but you'd be wrong to suggest, over here, that you'd have to ''allow'' cyclists to cycle in(/on) the streets. Though the modern 'MAMILs' are often as wrong about all this (and as damaging to the reputation of real cyclists) as far too many motorists are. Of course, this may not reflect the US situation (or state/township legislations), but then they were influenced by the car-lobby to create the jaywalking 'crime' as well, so I really wouldn't be surprised. [[Special:Contributions/162.158.74.62|162.158.74.62]] 22:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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:::It's a hen and egg thing. If everyone is driving, you don't need to put anything in the video, because there is noone to see it. But if the storefronts are not attractive thats one less reason to walk. And crossing a huge parking lot may in theory be walkable, but it is not really an enviroment attractive to walk through. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | :::It's a hen and egg thing. If everyone is driving, you don't need to put anything in the video, because there is noone to see it. But if the storefronts are not attractive thats one less reason to walk. And crossing a huge parking lot may in theory be walkable, but it is not really an enviroment attractive to walk through. --[[User:Lupo|Lupo]] ([[User talk:Lupo|talk]]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
:::No further expense? Apparently gas and car repair is free in Florida. Jokes aside, you really don't seem able to imagine a car-free shopping area. Look up image results for "Marktstraße" (German for ''market street''). Edit: parking and zoning laws prohibit such development in the US (there is barely any parking per shop and the upper floors are usually apartments) so you ''literally'' may have never seen these awesome places that are all over European city centers. [[User:ChaoticNeutralCzech|ChaoticNeutralCzech]] ([[User talk:ChaoticNeutralCzech|talk]]) 11:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | :::No further expense? Apparently gas and car repair is free in Florida. Jokes aside, you really don't seem able to imagine a car-free shopping area. Look up image results for "Marktstraße" (German for ''market street''). Edit: parking and zoning laws prohibit such development in the US (there is barely any parking per shop and the upper floors are usually apartments) so you ''literally'' may have never seen these awesome places that are all over European city centers. [[User:ChaoticNeutralCzech|ChaoticNeutralCzech]] ([[User talk:ChaoticNeutralCzech|talk]]) 11:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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I would be weary of that "Netherlands" guy. https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/54/ and others [[Special:Contributions/162.158.22.17|162.158.22.17]] 23:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC) | I would be weary of that "Netherlands" guy. https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/54/ and others [[Special:Contributions/162.158.22.17|162.158.22.17]] 23:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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<nowiki>*Reads the line about 'all of Europe agrees' from the UK. Laughs mirthlessly*</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | <nowiki>*Reads the line about 'all of Europe agrees' from the UK. Laughs mirthlessly*</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/172.70.85.218|172.70.85.218]] 09:47, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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(Just a meta-note, to a recent editor of this page, that using the established {{template|unsigned ip}} and {{template|unsigned}} templates (ideally with the two parameters of appropriate username/ip and then the timestamp, which you clearly identified and used) makes for a much more readable, consistent and brief markup. Like you'd not normally want to mess with the formatting personally to 'emulate' the {{template|Citation needed}} tag. And if you're trying to do something different from established measures, then I really couldn't see it.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.53|141.101.69.53]] 16:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | (Just a meta-note, to a recent editor of this page, that using the established {{template|unsigned ip}} and {{template|unsigned}} templates (ideally with the two parameters of appropriate username/ip and then the timestamp, which you clearly identified and used) makes for a much more readable, consistent and brief markup. Like you'd not normally want to mess with the formatting personally to 'emulate' the {{template|Citation needed}} tag. And if you're trying to do something different from established measures, then I really couldn't see it.) [[Special:Contributions/141.101.69.53|141.101.69.53]] 16:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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::If there's anything I feel rather guilty about, it's hardly ever making it say "UTC" (because when I copypasta the details, from the Diffs page top/whatever, ''that'' never explicitly says it is UTC, and it's easy enough to forget or not care about adding it to the relevent Param string). I don't know about anyone else's preferences, here, but it looks like there's either a lot more efficiency or a lot more backsliding/apathy, depending upon what perspective takes on this issue. I can't remember the last time I saw someone expand it out to the literal format like this, but of course I may only see it after editing/re-editing and have missed a tussle between the two paradigms like some of the other (named or IP) users have done above. | ::If there's anything I feel rather guilty about, it's hardly ever making it say "UTC" (because when I copypasta the details, from the Diffs page top/whatever, ''that'' never explicitly says it is UTC, and it's easy enough to forget or not care about adding it to the relevent Param string). I don't know about anyone else's preferences, here, but it looks like there's either a lot more efficiency or a lot more backsliding/apathy, depending upon what perspective takes on this issue. I can't remember the last time I saw someone expand it out to the literal format like this, but of course I may only see it after editing/re-editing and have missed a tussle between the two paradigms like some of the other (named or IP) users have done above. | ||
::No, it's not a good idea to edit-war about this, so I'm just poking my nose in to point out my observations. I'm sure it'll be easy to ignore me (an anon-IP), even if I know that I've been around for a ''long'' time in this form and think I know the established culture here (and have learnt to blend in with it). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.213|172.71.98.213]] 20:13, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ::No, it's not a good idea to edit-war about this, so I'm just poking my nose in to point out my observations. I'm sure it'll be easy to ignore me (an anon-IP), even if I know that I've been around for a ''long'' time in this form and think I know the established culture here (and have learnt to blend in with it). [[Special:Contributions/172.71.98.213|172.71.98.213]] 20:13, 25 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
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