Editing Talk:2851: Messier Objects

<!--Please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't delete this text. New comments should be added at the bottom.-->

addededededded transcript [[User:Certified_nqh|Me]]<sup>&#91;[[285: Wikipedian Protester|''citation needed'']]&#93;[[Category:Pages using the "citation needed" template]]</sup> 17:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
: meow <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">[[User:SomeoneIGuess|someone, i guess]]<sup>([[User talk:SomeoneIGuess|talk i guess]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/SomeoneIGuess|le edit list]])</sup></span>  17:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Is M30712050 that specific squirrel, or just the general category of squirrels? [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.56|172.69.247.56]] 17:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:The debate about the Ship of Theseus suggests that every ship gets its own number, so why not every squirrel? Although then the numbers would be much larger. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 18:04, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
::...and the list would be much messier. [[User:Yorkshire Pudding|Yorkshire Pudding]] ([[User talk:Yorkshire Pudding|talk]]) 18:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:::*fwap* [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.143|172.69.43.143]] 00:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:It can't be all squirrels, CM could not have seen *all* squirrels. In fact, he would have been dead long before *that* squirrel was born. [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 21:20, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


could the numbers have been picked to represent something rather than be entirely random? like 41592 coming from pi and 137 being FSC... idk maybe i'm just reading too much into it... [[Special:Contributions/162.158.186.11|162.158.186.11]] 18:09, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
: i mean...every finite string of numbers "comes from" pi [[User:Certified_nqh|Me]]<sup>&#91;[[285: Wikipedian Protester|''citation needed'']]&#93;[[Category:Pages using the "citation needed" template]]</sup> 15:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Between the Messier catalog and the Marvel multiverse, we've got a well-defined numbering system that indexes all objects in all universes. (Or, I guess at least those universes with Messier catalogs. Damn.) [[Special:Contributions/172.69.58.18|172.69.58.18]] 19:03, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:You should also number all Messier catalogues (and intermediate versions of them), then, to make sure we know which ones we're talking about. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.143|172.69.43.143]] 00:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:: Furthermore, each entry in the catalog should have it's own entry in the catalog. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.247.65|172.69.247.65]] 02:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Wait a minute... this is just the wikidata QID system again[[User:AtaraxianAscendant|ataraxianAscendant]] ([[User talk:AtaraxianAscendant|talk]]) 19:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:Yes, it's like Wikidata. Not sure if it's worth mentioning. Unfortunately, the numbers don't match those Wikidata for equivalent objects.
:Furtermore, Wikimedia Commons ID use an M and a number. For example, https://commons.wikimedia.org/entity/M205.--[[User:Pere prlpz|Pere prlpz]] ([[User talk:Pere prlpz|talk]]) 19:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:: {{wikidata|2013|Wikidata}} does something similar, but they use /Q\d+/ instead. [[User:Certified_nqh|Me]]<sup>&#91;[[285: Wikipedian Protester|''citation needed'']]&#93;[[Category:Pages using the "citation needed" template]]</sup> 15:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:I added a section about Wikidata because the first thing that I wanted to do when I read this comic was look up what the IDs were for all of the objects mentioned. It certainly could be written better. [[User:Brycemw|Brycemw]] ([[User talk:Brycemw|talk]]) 15:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:: Ha! Edit conflicted. Sample of diff (-my submission and +the one that got there just before me):
    -
    :[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1050837 Q1050837] (Ship of Theseus) (The ''concept'', only...)
    +	
    :[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1050837 Q1050837] (Ship of Theseus) (The thought experiment)
::: Oopsies! the one on the bottom is mine haha. <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">[[User:SomeoneIGuess|someone, i guess]]<sup>([[User talk:SomeoneIGuess|talk i guess]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/SomeoneIGuess|le edit list]])</sup></span>  18:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:: Great minds think alike! (Fools never differ...) [[Special:Contributions/172.71.178.79|172.71.178.79]] 16:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC) <!-- And the browser too often goes "www.explainxkcd.com unexpectedly closed the connection" at the moment, like now... -->

The existence of a Messier catalog implies the existence of a Neater catalog. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.134.130|172.69.134.130]] 19:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The explanation suggests that we might number every grain of sand. But the comic just has a single number for "Earth". Would the catalog have separate entries for an object and all its constituents? It doesn't seem like it, since Randall didn't label the wings of the butterfly, limbs of the squirrel or human, or branches and leaves of the tree. Of course, how we distinguish distinct objects in the world is an even thornier philosophical problem than the Ship of Theseus. [[User:Barmar|Barmar]] ([[User talk:Barmar|talk]]) 20:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:I deleted that portion as non-explanatory wild speculation. [[Special:Contributions/172.71.159.64|172.71.159.64]] 21:03, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
::The same would apply to the real Messier Objects too - do you label a star cluster, and then label the individual stars within it as well?[[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.228|172.70.90.228]] 10:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't Earth (or Messier) be object #0? [[User:SDSpivey|SDSpivey]] ([[User talk:SDSpivey|talk]]) 21:20, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:You'll need to bring that up with Messier... [[Special:Contributions/162.158.197.136|162.158.197.136]] 15:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

How messy are they? 🥁 [[Special:Contributions/172.70.100.211|172.70.100.211]] 22:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Earth number might be influenced by [https://rickandmorty.fandom.com/wiki/Dimension_C-137 Dimension C-137] from Rick and Morty, which often is used to refer to the "Earth" location from early easons. --
[[Special:Contributions/172.70.200.145|172.70.200.145]] 22:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC) (edit [[Special:Contributions/172.68.146.17|172.68.146.17]] 22:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC))


For the numbering of the ships of Theseuses, why not just use the numbers from a particular type of prime number? ----


In the UK, the Ship of Theseus problem is sometimes referred to as Trigger's Broom, after a character from one of our most popular sitcoms ("Only Fools And Horses"). Trigger is a mentally-deficient road sweeper who is proud of the fact that he's still got his original broom that he was given when he started work 20 years ago. He's looked after it in that time: it's had 17 new heads and 14 new handles...
[[Special:Contributions/172.70.86.189|172.70.86.189]] 06:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:To be fair (and, unfortunately, historically unfair to the Irish), that's just a transplant of the older "Irishman's Broom". And it's just one of many variations like "grandfather's axe", etc. Depends on whether you're going for fairly recent pop-culture (lovely-jubbley!), falling back on old stereotypes (to be sure, to be sure) or whatever else you have in mind. (I'm sure I actually heard "Ship of Theseus" said on the street, just the other day, by a conversing couple. And this wasn't even an Oxbridge street!) 
:To be fair ''to Trigger'', the council for whom the character worked was also as blind/far-sighted regarding the philosophical (dis)continuity of existence, given the award in which they were citing the broom as one of the outstanding features... Much as the US Government treats the 'modern' USS Constitution as the same as the 'original', maybe? [[Special:Contributions/172.70.90.231|172.70.90.231]] 09:02, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Could the M137 for earth be a Rick  and Morty reference, since that is their earth/universe-number as well? [[User:Eugen|Eugen]] ([[User talk:Eugen|talk]]) 09:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
: We gotta go to xkcd, Morty! There's no time to explain, get in, Morty! <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">[[User:SomeoneIGuess|someone, i guess]]<sup>([[User talk:SomeoneIGuess|talk i guess]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/SomeoneIGuess|le edit list]])</sup></span>
:I think it's close to impossible that this ISN'T a Rick And Morty reference, well spotted! That should probably go in the explanation somewhere... [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Another interpretation isn't so much that the higher-numbered objects are less "significant", but more that Messier numbered them in order, and so higher numbers mean objects that Messier took longer to get around to numbering.  It took him until object 206 to think to number himself, and other things such as random specific squirrels have much higher numbers because he didn't get to them until much later in his cataloguing process. [[Special:Contributions/108.162.242.54|108.162.242.54]] 16:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Concerning trees and squirrels, this assertion can and indeed should be supported with a citation (citing any adequate souce listing the objects in the catalogue). I have therefore changed the "fact" tag to "Actual citation needed" to avoid confusion with the humourous version. Whether the assertion is correct or not is questionable. One could argue that M5, the Rose Cluster, is named after the rose tree; that M20, the Trifid Nebula is actually the Triffid Nebula; and that M93, the Critter Cluster, refers to a variety of critters, including squirrels.[[User:Catherine|Catherine]] ([[User talk:Catherine|talk]]) 00:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so right now where it says there are no Messier-numbered galaxies named after trees or squirrels, it says "Actual Citation Needed". I would assume the only proof of this would be to cite the actual list to note no squirrels or trees in it (squirrels obviously, I feel like trees would be plausible). So, how do we do an actual citation? Link to the list somewhere reliable and put a footnote like on Wikipedia?

Also, I feel like there's an intentional joke that the first object available to Messier, himself, is numbered as low as 205. Like logically he'd be 1 (or 0, if he wanted to keep actual numbers for actual celestial bodies) or 111. [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 05:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
:Numbered in the order of being first observed, from the moment he set his mind to it? And there were no mirrors (that weren't probably concave and mounted in his telescope*) in direct view for the first couple of hundred observations? His notepad given zero, perhaps? What of his pen(cil)? The non-telescopic mirror would have been 205, perhaps, or lower, depending on how he came upon it.
:<nowiki>*</nowiki> Hmmm... Whereupon is numbered the telescope he initially used? Unless using some special "need a full, all-round, unoccluded view" rule as part of his internal process of concluding a valid observation.
:Fleeting sideling glimpses (and being, ironically, far too close) could defer many, many things from snap consideration. It does suggest The Earth should be almost the last thing to be numbered (after "the inside of the Apollo 8 capsule"?), but perhaps his particular systematic rationale has occasionally been revised... [[Special:Contributions/141.101.68.80|141.101.68.80]] 11:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
::Even without mirrors, there's still reflections in water (I feel like there's other natural mirrors, but I can't think of any). Also, you only need a reflective surface to see your own face - and more than that to see your back - but people generally can see all of their front from the chest down (chest, stomach, arms, legs, hands, feet...)... Even some of our backs (butts, back of the legs and arms) by moving our parts around. Messier is still the first observable object to Messier. :) [[User:NiceGuy1|NiceGuy1]] ([[User talk:NiceGuy1|talk]]) 06:06, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
:::"Messier object 0: Messier's nose". Beyond that (and I think that the flash of inspiration is as likely, or more, to have struck when his dominant eye is firmly stuck to an eyepiece, rendering even his nose not directly visible), you have to at least be paying attention to ''notice'' even your own hands in front of your face. If you first action is to contort yourself to assess exactly how steatopygian your gluteals are, then you're probably thinking of far different things than astronomy, or even just "what can I actually see, in front of me?" (apart from that pencil and paper, presumably). The mysterious backstory behind the (in-universe) sources of the comic's details are, of course, unknown, but you can probably defer some assumptions as less likely than others. [[Special:Contributions/172.69.43.138|172.69.43.138]] 17:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)