Editing Talk:2889: Greenhouse Effect
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:I feel this assessment should be included in the explanation. Not just because it hints at one reason for climate inaction in cold-to-temperate regions. It also points to a central issue of climate justice: A ''White'' Swedish scientist in 1895 thought of milder winters, but people closer to the equator, who were summarily ignored by the ''White'' scientific community on racist grounds in 1895, are now about to face physically unbearable hothouse conditions. The quote also shows how little this scientist knew about the land that sustained him - every peasant whom he would have bothered to ask could have told him that a +8°C change in temperatures would have devastating effects on agriculture because most plants can't adapt to it and agricultural knowledge of the local soil and climate, that has been painstakingly developed over centuries of famine, would be rendered mostly useless, everywhere. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | :I feel this assessment should be included in the explanation. Not just because it hints at one reason for climate inaction in cold-to-temperate regions. It also points to a central issue of climate justice: A ''White'' Swedish scientist in 1895 thought of milder winters, but people closer to the equator, who were summarily ignored by the ''White'' scientific community on racist grounds in 1895, are now about to face physically unbearable hothouse conditions. The quote also shows how little this scientist knew about the land that sustained him - every peasant whom he would have bothered to ask could have told him that a +8°C change in temperatures would have devastating effects on agriculture because most plants can't adapt to it and agricultural knowledge of the local soil and climate, that has been painstakingly developed over centuries of famine, would be rendered mostly useless, everywhere. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
::I contemplated doing so, but refrained, because I feared it would transform an explanation into a polemic. The main point of the comic, I argue, is that humans have known about global warming, and anthropogenic carbon dioxide's role in it, for far longer than most of today's narratives state, and, in an explanation, it is sufficient to point this out. Those with Bibles may find the ethical underpinnings for this comic and its message in the [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209&version=NRSVUE ninth chapter of John], particularly v. 41: “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains." For my part, I find the principal explanation for climate inaction (not just in the temperate zones, air-conditioning fans) in the concept of "personal advantage". I once estimated that, to bring per-capita energy use in the USA, anno 2014, down to the level current in 1957, that use (thanks to population increase) would have to correspond with energy usage in 1900. No aircraft, few cars, almost no electricity infrastructure and therefore nothing that depends on that infrastructure. I have not attempted to estimate what the energy usage would have to be to bring today's per-capita allotment to the level current in 1896; I suspect it would require the dismantling of the Industrial Revolution in its entirety. In token of this, I used to walk two miles each way to work. A co-worker saw this, patted me on the head, said "That's nice", and drove off, alone, in deir SUV. Oh ... the co-worker led a climate-change research lab. No one will willingly accept a reduction in standard of living, and, I argue, any attempt to force this will put authoritarian climate deniers at the head of government everywhere. Nor do I accept that [https://www.dude-n-dude.com/2020/08/23/kris-an-murphy-wunderwaffe/ <em>Wunderwaffe</em>] will save us ... and those concerned with "climate justice" may well ask who among us can afford such toys.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.33|108.162.245.33]] 16:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | ::I contemplated doing so, but refrained, because I feared it would transform an explanation into a polemic. The main point of the comic, I argue, is that humans have known about global warming, and anthropogenic carbon dioxide's role in it, for far longer than most of today's narratives state, and, in an explanation, it is sufficient to point this out. Those with Bibles may find the ethical underpinnings for this comic and its message in the [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209&version=NRSVUE ninth chapter of John], particularly v. 41: “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains." For my part, I find the principal explanation for climate inaction (not just in the temperate zones, air-conditioning fans) in the concept of "personal advantage". I once estimated that, to bring per-capita energy use in the USA, anno 2014, down to the level current in 1957, that use (thanks to population increase) would have to correspond with energy usage in 1900. No aircraft, few cars, almost no electricity infrastructure and therefore nothing that depends on that infrastructure. I have not attempted to estimate what the energy usage would have to be to bring today's per-capita allotment to the level current in 1896; I suspect it would require the dismantling of the Industrial Revolution in its entirety. In token of this, I used to walk two miles each way to work. A co-worker saw this, patted me on the head, said "That's nice", and drove off, alone, in deir SUV. Oh ... the co-worker led a climate-change research lab. No one will willingly accept a reduction in standard of living, and, I argue, any attempt to force this will put authoritarian climate deniers at the head of government everywhere. Nor do I accept that [https://www.dude-n-dude.com/2020/08/23/kris-an-murphy-wunderwaffe/ <em>Wunderwaffe</em>] will save us ... and those concerned with "climate justice" may well ask who among us can afford such toys.[[Special:Contributions/108.162.245.33|108.162.245.33]] 16:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
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Arguably, it was Abraham Darby's invention of the coke fired blast furnace in 1709, that vastly increased iron production, was the real start of the industrial revolution and use of coal as a fuel. (It was actually banned in some places as being a dirty fuel for cooking and heating) Of course that would mess up the nearer to / further from dates that this series of comics use. [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 09:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC) | Arguably, it was Abraham Darby's invention of the coke fired blast furnace in 1709, that vastly increased iron production, was the real start of the industrial revolution and use of coal as a fuel. (It was actually banned in some places as being a dirty fuel for cooking and heating) Of course that would mess up the nearer to / further from dates that this series of comics use. [[User:RIIW - Ponder it|RIIW - Ponder it]] ([[User talk:RIIW - Ponder it|talk]]) 09:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
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I would not use the expression "renewable-energy based.", but i would use "Co2 free" or similar. The main problem with climate change is CO2, not lack of renewables. Plus renewables are not the only CO2 free energy source. E.g. the nuclear energy is too a CO2 free energy source. And the only renewable source able to cover the baseload is hydropower, that is not available in the right amount everywhere. For instance take a look on Germany CO2 emissions. {{unsigned ip|172.71.114.107|10:00, 3 February 2024}} | I would not use the expression "renewable-energy based.", but i would use "Co2 free" or similar. The main problem with climate change is CO2, not lack of renewables. Plus renewables are not the only CO2 free energy source. E.g. the nuclear energy is too a CO2 free energy source. And the only renewable source able to cover the baseload is hydropower, that is not available in the right amount everywhere. For instance take a look on Germany CO2 emissions. {{unsigned ip|172.71.114.107|10:00, 3 February 2024}} | ||
:That's why it's called "renewable-energy ''based''", not "using renewable energies, too". "Renewable" doesn't refer to just a CO2 neutral process, but to a process that can be sustained infinitely (within the sun's life span as a main sequence star), which is clearly not the case for uranium-based energy sources. Maybe "sustainable" is the word we're looking for? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | :That's why it's called "renewable-energy ''based''", not "using renewable energies, too". "Renewable" doesn't refer to just a CO2 neutral process, but to a process that can be sustained infinitely (within the sun's life span as a main sequence star), which is clearly not the case for uranium-based energy sources. Maybe "sustainable" is the word we're looking for? [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
− | ::Although nuclear energy is a CO2 free energy source, it creates nuclear waste that is hard to get rid of. I believe that we need to invest in developing infrastructure to properly store energy via batteries so that we can create sustainable energy without creating so much waste. [[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]] ([[User talk:42.book.addict|talk]]) 02:13, 5 | + | : :Although nuclear energy is a CO2 free energy source, it creates nuclear waste that is hard to get rid of. I believe that we need to invest in developing infrastructure to properly store energy via batteries so that we can create sustainable energy without creating so much waste. [[User:42.book.addict|42.book.addict]] ([[User talk:42.book.addict|talk]]) 02:13, 5 February 2024 (UTC) |
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Here's another quote from the Crawford paper: | Here's another quote from the Crawford paper: | ||
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- This suggests to me that Arrhenius thought the development of a quantitative model to be a "trifling matter" a.k.a. "trivial" in 1894, but it turned out to be a really difficult mathematical problem. So the "trifling matter" possibly doesn't refer to "hypothetical CO2 concentration in far-off eras", as the title text suggests, but to Arrhenius' initial estimation of the mathematical problem. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | - This suggests to me that Arrhenius thought the development of a quantitative model to be a "trifling matter" a.k.a. "trivial" in 1894, but it turned out to be a really difficult mathematical problem. So the "trifling matter" possibly doesn't refer to "hypothetical CO2 concentration in far-off eras", as the title text suggests, but to Arrhenius' initial estimation of the mathematical problem. [[User:Transgalactic|Transgalactic]] ([[User talk:Transgalactic|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
:Good get! [[Special:Contributions/172.71.151.153|172.71.151.153]] 17:29, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | :Good get! [[Special:Contributions/172.71.151.153|172.71.151.153]] 17:29, 4 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
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