Talk:2995: University Commas

As Wikipedia notes, the Harvard comma is actually a thing, and synonymous with the Oxford comma. It's hard to understand whether Randall was just ignoring that. It's interesting to also look at how the various commas are meaningful. For instance, the Yale comma here appears to be just plain ungrammatical, you'd never put a comma between a verb and a its direct object; similarly the Cambridge comma and Princeton commas are ungrammatical, you'd never put one after the word "and." The Stanford comma is unambiguously normal and it's not clear how you could have such a list without it (absent replacement with a [Stanford?] semicolon). The Columbia comma is being used to separate "mac and cheese" into "mac, and[,] cheese" which changes the semantic meaning (arguably into something meaningless, but maybe we're listing Apple Computers or even Macintosh apple fruit abbreviated). The MIT comma is a cute programming joke for multiline lists. Maybe there are hidden trick meanings (like MIT) I'm missing. JohnHawkinson (talk) 23:03, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

On their own, few of them are intrinsically bad, in the right context.

• "Please, buy" - valid comma. Prefixed subclause (general plea).
• "Please buy, apples" - valid comma (more specific plea).
• "apples, mac" - valid comma (list-type).
• "mac, and" - valid comma (potentially a conjunctive sub-clause).
• "mac and, cheese" - valid comma (potentially a post-conjunctive sub-clause).
• "and cheese, milk" - valid comma (follow-up sub-clause).
• "cheese, milk, and" - Oxford comma. (Thus invalid, by default. IMO.)
• "milk and, bread." - ...would be valid, as above, except for the sentence ending.
• "and bread,." - Ok. Definitely the worst. (Except for the Oxford Comma, which is still worserer!)

Obviously, combinations of them (or counterpart lack of them, in some cases) can clash badly. Some can work well together, but using ()s, ;s or feetnete^* is often better than diving in and out of sub-clauses in the midst of a comma-bound list and potentially making it ambiguous whether you're diving in/out of a clarifying aside or replacing a non-terminating conjunction or perhaps one of the other usages to which a comma might apply.

^* Or just generally rewriting a multi-clausal sentence completely! 172.70.86.22 23:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Commas can go in a number of places in lists, and, occasionally, after the word "and". BunsenH (talk) 23:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Potentially, anything is possible... I can see how a sentence like "Please buy apples, mac and cheese, milk, and, bread being out of stock, oats" would work, but I really don't see how the commas after "and" could work in this sentence. Transgalactic (talk) 08:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

If each item in a list shall be followed by a comma then the MIT comma is quite proper. SDT 172.68.245.206 05:11, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The UCLA comma may refer to the 8 clap, a chant at UCLA which is begins with a string of 8 claps. 172.68.205.178 (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2024 (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

I thought the UCLA & Michigan commas referred to quotes within citations. This isn't uncommon in literary studies, where you quote articles quoting books. Depending on your quotation style, this can result in a long string of 3-4 "commas" (as in: short lines in punctuation marks). If you place the quote between actual commas, make that 4-5. Transgalactic (talk) 08:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the tirade against the Oxford comma in the article is not relevant for understanding the comic. "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God' does not" is not saying that Ayn Rand is the mother. To express that one should write "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and to God". Thus the ambiguity can be resolved. I believe one of the editors is mixing in their personal taste here. --172.71.160.71 09:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Tirade? Hardly. It explains when it doesn't help (and when it might).

And I think you misread. "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God' does not" indeed does not say that Ayn Rand is the mother. In fact it explicitly says that "'To my mother, Ayn Rand and God'"... erm... does not say the thing that 'To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God' potentially does. (See table below.)

The choice of how to disambiguate "my mother, who is Ayn Rand", as a concept, is another thing and has multiple options. Disambiguating in the direction of a simple list is the contention surrounding the Oxford(/Serial) Comma itself (it is, by definition, being used in the list format), given that some circumstances are most helped by it and others are most helped by its absence. If you're strongly for the OC, you'll hopefully rewrite problematic OCed formulations so that you can use it. If you're strongly against it you should change problamatic non-OCed versions so that you can better go without one. 172.70.85.128 10:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Inspired (a bit) by the Three Laws permutation table, a set of possible ambiguations from the straight list...

A	B	C	"A, B and C"	"A, B, and C"
my parents	Ayn Rand	God	"my parents (who are Ayn Rand and God)"	list only*
my parents	God	Ayn Rand	"my parents (who are God and Ayn Rand)"	list only*
Ayn Rand	my parents	God	list only*	list only*
Ayn Rand	God	my parents	list only*	"Ayn Rand (who is God), and my parents"
God	my parents	Ayn Rand	list only*	list only*
God	Ayn Rand	my parents	list only*	"God (who is Ayn Rand), and my parents"

-* - Assuming no other "All You Zombies" and/or divine incarnation scenarios.

...maybe it's too early in the morning, but I'm sure I'm missing other ambiguities I've commented on before. (Without necesarily going into the asterisked territories.) Anyone want to amend this? 172.68.186.105 09:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Love it! Transgalactic (talk) 10:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

There's additional potential ambiguity if you go with the singular "my mother" as opposed to the plural "my parents". "My mother, Ayn Rand, and God" (with the Oxford comma) could be listing 2 separate entities while indicating that my mother is Ayn Rand, or could be listing 3 separate entities. "My mother, Ayn Rand and God" (without the Oxford comma) could be referring to a single entity while indicating that my mother is both Ayn Rand and God, or listing 3 separate entities. (In a phrase like, "My mother, Ayn Rand and God, gave it to me," the comma after God indicates that it's one entity, but you lose that clarity with "It was given to me by my mother, Ayn Rand and God." 172.68.70.66 14:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I realize that this comic focuses on University commas, however I feel that some mention should be made about the Walken Comma and the Shatner Comma! 172.70.114.103 10:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

What, do you,    mean by,   that? 172.69.195.106 13:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Mac and cheese is probably not well-known outside the US (especially not under that name). --172.71.160.115 13:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

As usual, the Brits don't know how to name food. "Macaroni cheese" sounds like the macaroni is made of cheese. But I added an explanation and link to the Wikipedia page. Barmar (talk) 14:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)