# Difference between revisions of "2343: Mathematical Symbol Fight"

 Mathematical Symbol Fight Title text: Oh no, a musician just burst in through the door confidently twirling a treble clef.

## Explanation

 This explanation may be incomplete or incorrect: Created by a SQUARE ROOT SCYTHE. Please mention here why this explanation isn't complete. Do NOT delete this tag too soon.If you can address this issue, please edit the page! Thanks.

This panel imagines which mathematical symbols would be good in a fight if they were made corporeal in two (or three) dimensions. Generally, objects with longer reach and pointier ends wind up on the right ("more useful") side of the scale, and symbols with less reach and more curves tend towards the left ("less useful") side.

The comic invokes surreal humour by suggesting that mathematical symbols could be handled as physical objects in the real world. Another component of the humor is the implication that it is useful to prepare to use mathematical symbols in a fight, even though mathematicians, who use mathematical symbols, usually do not conduct their debates violently [citation needed] (though some stories suggest that Hippasus was killed by his fellow Pythagoreans for his proof that irrational numbers exist), and even if they did, they wouldn't use large reproductions of their symbols as weapons.[citation needed]

Symbol Meaning Notes on using in a fight
The set of real numbers Megan seems to be struggling with a giant version of this symbol.
θ Theta This symbol is not very sharp, and White Hat is unable to use it in combat. It would not work as a good shield due to the hole in the symbol, but it possibly could be thrown. (The later version of Xena's chakram had a bar in the middle.)
Empty set Similarly shaped to theta, but identified as being slightly more useful, presumably because the parts of the bar that extend beyond the circle can be used as thrusting weapons.
infinity
> Greater than
Direct Proportionality
union (set theory)
∈/ϵ member of (set theory) or the "lunate" lowercase epsilon Cueball is holding this in the manner of a Klingon "Bat'leth" from the Star Trek franchise. The Bat'leth is infamous among swordfighters for being rather impractical, and that the Klingon warrior race would have been better suited using swords like humans. It seems Randall agrees, as the ∈ is quite far on the left of the chart.
π pi
"for all" Could be held by the crossbar clenched in a fist, and then used as a push dagger, with the legs acting as a guard. Or could be held by the legs.

Compared to the similar Δ (delta) the point is sharper, the grip is closer to the point so it would be easier control (keep the weapon from twisting). Unclear why it is listed as much less effective than the delta. Perhaps the guard legs are too long?

(partial derivative or boundary operator) It's not clear why Randall ranks this symbol as so much less effective than the similarly-shaped 𝜌, but the curl in the "tail" of the ∂ would give it a shorter lever arm when swung and would disrupt the balance.
+ Plus Maybe thrown like a shuriken?
Ψ Psi It could be used as a slightly-less-functional trident or pitchfork, with a shorter handle. More particularly, it resembles a sai (which, funnily enough, is how "Psi" is pronounced).
not equal sign
~ tilde, meaning "approximately", equivalent, or several transforms of a function A potentially dangerous throwing weapon. Could also be similar to a dagger (Kris) or a sword (Flame-bladed sword), with a wavy blade.
# Cardinality, connected sum (knot theory), or primorial. Blondie uses this symbol.
Δ Delta Could be held with one bar clenched in a fist, and then used as a push dagger. Unclear why listed as much more effective than ∀.
Material consequence or Logical consequence, meaning "implies" The point is nice, but having two poles (or one board-like thick handle) would be difficult to wield. A collection of them might make a nice defensive pike line.
multiplication sign If thrown, this could be a dangerous projectile weapon, or it could be scattered on the ground as a trip hazard. Three of them stacked together would make a "therefore sign", which might at least conclude the mathematical portion of the fight in the user's favor.
ζ Zeta Could be sharpened into a scythe or curved saber, depending on the curvature and length of the 'tail' at the bottom.
Aleph number Could be brandished or thrown in the manner of a shuriken.
Γ uppercase Greek letter Gamma If this letter is formed with serifs, it could be used as an axe or hook, and if it is made sans-serif, it would make a powerful pick or war hammer.
square root sign Randall has drawn this sign with a long overbar, which makes it useful like a pole arm. Black Hat has chosen this symbol.
ρ italic rho Ponytail is brandishing this symbol against Danish, apparently using it like a club or hammer and striking with the curve.
contour integral This symbol is drawn with a very tight center, giving it an almost identical figure to the regular integral symbol. Presumably, the added bulk for marginal additional use earns it a rating of 'less effective'.
integral Could be used in the manner of a shepherd's crook, or as a billhook. Could be used as a spear thrower, combined with ⋅ or ⇀.
Implies; X→Y means that if X is true, then Y is also true Danish is brandishing this symbol against Ponytail, apparently using it like a spear or other polearm.
up tack or falsum, indicating a false proposition in logic or the bottom element in a partial order Used as a war hammer (held by the long stem), the opponent would be struck with either leg of the top of the T. Held by the short legs (like a wishbone), could be used as a two handed sword.

(If tipped with a knapped stone head, it could become a falsum point.)

Vector notation A single-barbed spear.
⎯⎯ Fraction bar (division) or overline (complex conjugate or mean). Hairy is brandishing this symbol against Black Hat. The single shaft would allow it to be used in the manner of a quarterstaff, , or other stick-fighting weapon. Of the symbols shown in the comic, Randall considers this one the most useful in a fight, presumably because of its greater reach than the vector arrow and its simplicity compared to the square root symbol.
𝄞 Treble clef Mentioned in the title text; this is not a mathematical symbol, but a musical symbol. The treble clef is a much more complicated symbol than those used in mathematics, hence the musician's "confidence" in his weapon. The curve at the bottom could be used as a hook, the upper curl could be used as a blunt weapon, and the tight curl of the center would serve as a better defensive shield than theta.

A straight line is farthest to the "more dangerous" side, which could possibly be a reference to the dangers posed by lines in "Flatland", because their infinitely-sharp endpoints could be difficult to see (particularly their rear end, which does not contain a gleaming eye as their front end does) and would fatally pierce whoever they chose to stab. However, taking a more literal view of the drawings, the straight line does not appear to be any thicker or thinner, or pointier, than any of the other lines.

The title text refers to a clef, which is not a mathematical symbol but rather a musical symbol. The note of concern in the text suggests musical symbols may be viewed in such fights as exotic or especially dangerous.

## Transcript

Mathematical Symbols

by how useful they would be in a fight

more useful

```ℝ   ∅ > ∝ π + Ψ ~ ⇒ ⋅ Γ √ ∮ ∫ ⇀
θ ∞ ∪ ∈ ∀ ∂ ≠ # Δ ζ ℵ ρ → ⊥ ⎯
```

[Below the (number?) line, eight characters fight each other, using some of the symbols mentioned above as weapons.]

[The characters hold more "useful" weapons from left to right, correlating with the chart.]

[Megan is awkwardly handling a giant "ℝ".]

[White Hat is holding a "θ" with both hands, as a shield.]

[Cueball is holding an "∈" in both hands, with its "tines" pointed towards Blondie, who is swatting at him with a "#".]

[Ponytail is leaping at Danish, swinging a "ρ" like an axe, while Danish is leaning back and thrusting a "→" back at her.]

[Black Hat is swinging a long "√" like a polearm at Hairy, who is holding a long "⎯" defensively.]

- List of symbols from left to right (by rightmost edge):

ℝ θ ∅ ∞ > ∪ ∝ ∈ ∀ π ∂ + ≠ Ψ # ~ △ ζ ⇒ ⋅ ℵ Γ ρ √ → ∮ ∫ ⊥ ⇀ ⎯

Note: Where two symbols had similar right-most edges, the overlay grid on an ASUS pro-art display was used to decide which one went further right.

# Discussion

Can I get aleph-null aleph-shaped throwing stars? LunarNapolean (talk) 20:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd prefer octothorpe throwing stars. 108.162.219.168 16:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Apologies to whoever added the "citation needed" that I stepped on. -- brad

That zeta looks conspicuously bad. I wonder if this comic will get a cleaned-up version uploaded. 108.162.237.16 20:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Megan usually has shoulder-length hair, so the person being attacked by Ponytail is probably not Megan... except in so far as all brunettes in this comic are called 'Megan'. LtPowers (talk) 20:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Is one of them Danish? And one of them Megan? 172.69.33.121 22:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think Randall is underestimating the weapon utility of psi. There's a real-world martial arts weapon that looks somewhat like it.172.69.68.197 22:04, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think he’s also seriously underestimating the value of keeping your fingers attached to your hand. Swords have guards for a reason. I’d pick the contour integral over anything else there.

Considering the title text, a bass clef looks pretty formidable, close to a bat'leth. Nutster (talk) 00:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but the treble clef is the one in the title text, and that’s nothing like a Klingon bat'leth. I removed the comment from the table. Adam1729 (talk) 02:09, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
If we're talking clefs/klingon weaponry, get on the viola clef. That's bat'leth AF. It's even known as a "K Clef" in some circles. You could do some pretty hefty damage with a viola clef.
Or a viola...141.101.98.26 22:05, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
What's shown in the explanation right now is a G-clef, not a treble-clef; I believe this to be an error. (Also the G-clef symbol doesn't display reliably on mobile.) The symbol 'treble-clef' is only mentioned by name, not shown in the comic; therefore, I think we should show a symbol that is actually specifically a treble-clef. A clef note only becomes a treble-clef note if the lines are included; otherwise it could mean any clef note. U+1D11E (𝄞) is specifically a G-clef by name in its Unicode listing. The Unicode emoji U+1F3BC named 'Musical Score' is defined in Unicode as displaying a staff (or stave) with a clef note laid along the lowest of five horizontal lines, thereby forming a treble-clef. Not only is 🎼 (U+1F3BC) a Treble-clef while 𝄞 (U+1D11E) is not, 🎼 displays more universally on mobile than 𝄞 does. Therefore, I'm going to correct the error. Please discuss the issue here if you think 𝄞 should be used instead.
ProphetZarquon (talk) 19:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

These “weapons” seem strangely appropriate for xkcd’s stick figures... -cpl

Agreed :)

Are we sure White Hat is holding empty set? There don't appear to be points extending outside the circle in which case I think he's actually holding Theta -jc

Can I use the LaTeX mathwitch? 141.101.98.26 10:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

First time editor here,hope I get the notation right! Question on the pi link to wikipedia: I put in the double link to the main page and the disambiguation because unfortunately https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(disambiguation)#Mathematics doesn't include the mathematical constant definition (though it is listed at the top of the page). Thoughts? Alan g (talk) 10:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I think that’s the is proportional to” symbol rather than just alpha. They are similar but have different Unicode symbols. Thoughts?--141.101.98.222 12:01, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

You're definitely correct. (They don't even look that similar...) It's the direct proportion symbol, not the symbol for Alpha.
ProphetZarquon (talk) 18:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Annnnd somebody has added 'alpha' back in despite alpha not being represented in this comic at all in any way. Even the wikipedia article on Alpha mentions that it is often mistaken for the Proportionality symbol, but the 'fish' looking symbol is not alpha, never means alpha & saying 'Proportionality or Alpha' encourages more confusion. I'm reverting the edit. PLEASE DISCUSS HERE IF YOU THINK ALPHA BELONGS FOR SOME REASON.
ProphetZarquon (talk) 19:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think → is "implies", particularly as we've had ⇒ earlier. → is often used for "maps to", as in f: x → f(x) 141.101.107.166 19:24, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

→ and ⇒ often mean two different kinds of "implies". The single arrow is for the boolean operator that takes in two truth values and outputs a truth value. The double one is for "things on the left justify/prove things on the right", in somewhat of a metalanguage. Here's an example of two different ways of saying Modus Ponens with the operators: ((p→q) ∧p)→q vs p→q,p⇒q Alan g (talk) 03:52, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Are we sure that is the multiplication sign (center dot)? The placement makes it seem more a decimal point. 162.158.123.47 21:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Confusingly, math conventions in some countries use a low dot for multiplication, though it's not as common as it used to be. That's in addition to all the other things that bare dots can represent in math. Personally I can't "see" any particular set of semantics for that symbol, I just see a dot. 162.158.186.136 22:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

We see a greater-than, but no less-than. Where would that appear? I think >≠<, in fact ><<, if wielded properly. Though if thrown, either/both could be a multi-use projectile... 141.101.98.96 09:08, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Took me a little bit to figure out what you meant, but I think it hasn't been clarified which side is the point or sharp side, so until that is clarified "<"=">"

Anyone else think the title text is hinting at a pun? "I got scared because his weapon looked like treble" sort of thing?

Where is the opening parenthesis? 172.69.33.223 21:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Here! (: 162.158.154.131 09:33, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

If I could implement a line integral as a machine rather than a symbol, I'd use that to encircle my enemy. WIN! Cellocgw (talk) 13:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

i'm sure that the radix symbol could be used in a manner similar to sly cooper's crook 138.186.224.65 13:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The partial derivative could be used as a grappling hook, which is possibly why it's ranked where it is. I think Delta is higher than the A shape, because there isn't a chance of damage from push-back - both ends of the latter are pointy. 172.69.63.237 18:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm kind of shocked that no one has mentioned that the WhoWouldWin subreddit had a couple of threads which likely inspired this comic: https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/epm3tf/which_number_would_make_the_best_weapon/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/eq1ezq/which_letter_in_the_alphabet_would_make_the_best/. Of course, xkcd took it one step farther, but I wouldn't be surprised if those threads got the ball rolling. 162.158.122.226 19:31, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think you're right! It's a shame Reddit threads lock in less than a year... I hope someone created a new thread based on this comic, linking the only old threads for reference.
ProphetZarquon (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The treble clef at the bottom should probably be standardized, not that colorful clip art thing. Dogman15 (talk) 09:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

## Would anyone else like to join me in creating an anti-Gamma interest group?

Just asking. 172.69.33.223 21:47, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I hate the U+0393 "Γ" symbol for Gamma as rendered in sans-serif, as it too closely resembles the Extended ASCII code 218 line-drawing character "┌". The lowercase "ɣ" is more distinctive, but it just doesn't look like a voiced-velar fricative "gh" sound to me. The IPA symbol "ɤ" for a close-mid back unrounded vowel actually looks more like a "g" sound to me for some reason, but that's taken & I don't think this situation is worth fighting for it. When shown with serifs as Randall drew it, the uppercase "Failed to parse (Missing <code>texvc</code> executable. Please see math/README to configure.): \Gamma " Gamma symbol ([1]) is plenty distinctive enough for me to identify visually. The sans-serif version bears very little resemblance to the symbol displayed in this comic. I would go so far as to say that displaying this symbol without its serifs is a bad practice. How do we go about getting some serifs shown on that symbol for more devices\fonts?
ProphetZarquon (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Russian Г is basically a "beck-de-corbin"; but, again, you have to make sure you use Russian "Cyrillic" uppercase symbol Г, not, for.ex., lowercase "г". RELEASE!!! 172.68.10.178 21:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)