Talk:2940: Modes of Transportation

I'd say a bicycle is way less dangerous than a car 172.68.192.196 21:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC) (para 1/4)

Considering only the two vehicles themselves, I would probably agree with you but this comic is about convenience and danger of various means of transport. Wouldn't you agree that using a bicycle for transport in crowded city traffic is rather more dangerous to the cyclist than using a car is to the driver? 172.69.60.138 (talk) 21:46, 31 May 2024 (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

It depends on whether you're comparing worst case injuries versus injury rate. Since airliners are considered one of the safest, I think it's injury rate. Barmar (talk) 22:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd say a bicycle is less dangerous than a unicycle, but apparently walking<unicycle<car<bicycle. No metric I can think of matches that order, neither danger in a vacuum, danger in a self-environment, danger in a car environment, or danger to others in any environment. I'm quite confused. --172.70.114.29 05:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

On a per-passenger-mile basis, walking is over ten times more dangerous than driving, and trains are about four times as dangerous as planes. So this comic can't be about risk of death per mile. It must be something more like risk of death per hour, which is extremely low for unicycles since people don't usually ride them in life-threatening situations outside of circuses. Similarly, travelling to and from work on a pogo stick every day would be quite dangerous, but in practice, people hardly ever die on a pogo stick. So it depends how you measure it. EebstertheGreat (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I can see the danger/hour, but surely the unicycle shouldn't count as a mode of transportation when it is used in a circus? You also don't want to count the hours when a car is stationary and the driver is waiting for someone to enter or leave (which is a significant amount of time for taxi's). So when it is used for actual transportation, it is most certainly more dangerous per hour than many other things on this graph. --172.70.110.99 23:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a couple that are off on here since I think light aircraft and helicopters are also less dangerous than cars when looking at accident rates vs trips or vs miles traveled. Cars are quite dangerous. They sure are convenient though. 172.64.238.87 09:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed: By any metric I can think of, this chart is grossly off on more than one form of transport. For one thing, inline skating is much safer than skateboarding in almost every scenario except approaching a bunch of mean kids. ProphetZarquon (talk) 21:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the metric he's using is actually perceived danger.172.70.90.145 08:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the whole chart is on a "perceived" level. I would assume that "convenience" also would include "getting from A to B fast" for which cars and bicylces are too close together. And motorcycles are surely fun but if they were even closely as convenient as a car I would use the former more often than latter - which I don't as a car is MUCH more convenient. I think the meaningfulness of the chart is more like Fuck Grapefruit a matter of opinion than an actual analysis based on actual statistics. Elektrizikekswerk (talk) 08:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Most deaths are either due to involved cars or people doing races or stunts. 172.68.192.196 21:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC) (para 2/4)

I would not count "died because plane crashed onto road" into car dangers, as I would not count F1 driver death into the same bucket as car commuters. 172.68.192.196 21:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC) (para 3/4)

So I would do the same for bikes. 172.68.192.196 21:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC) (para 4/4)

Agreed. Deaths caused by cars should not count against bikes unless "plane crashed onto road" would count against cars & 'flying by nuclear rocket' would count against the poor people walking below.

ProphetZarquon (talk) 22:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not actually true that a hot air balloon has only one possible direction of travel. It seemed relevant so I added a couple of sentences to the explanation. I suspect Randall is aware of this of course, being a weather nerd. 162.158.74.69 00:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Meh... A hot air balloon is not a "mode of transportation", that is it's not a means to go from location A (on the ground) to location B (on the ground) A hot air balloon is means of going Up, and staying up for an reasonable period of time. In most balloon rides, the "destination" is irrelevant, the purpose of the ride is to reach altitude, not travel horizontally. I feel Randall misses the point of balloons here. It shouldn't be only the graph, because it's not a "Mode of transport". Zeimusu (talk) 21:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The graph only addresses how convenient\dangerous things are as a form of transport. A Slip-N-Slide could easily have made the list, if Randall had viewed any such record attempts lately. Putting only practical modes of transport on the chart, would leave the lower right empty. If one wanted to know whether hot-air balloon was a practical mode of transport, one could theoretically consult a chart like this to find out that it isn't.

ProphetZarquon (talk) 21:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Are American hot air balloonists commonly fond of taking sniper rifles up with them? Kev (talk) 23:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

From what I understand, it's considered unamerican not to.172.70.85.176 10:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Its not a commonly known law, but its actally illegal to enter a hotair balloon with anything less than a 12 gauge Apollo11 (talk) 16:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Dangerous to whom is relevant. Yes, cars are less dangerous to the driver than bicycles and pedestrians, but that is because the main threat to bicyclists and pedestrians is cars. If you count victim deaths in addition to perpetrator deaths, then cars are the least safe vehicle. 172.71.99.30 01:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)Regret

Cars aren't dangerous; drivers are...172.70.86.82 09:38, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

In fact, even the first part isn't true. If you just count self-caused injury/death, cars are more dangerous to their occupants than bikes are to their riders or, er, feet are to those walking.172.70.162.18 10:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Are scooters really more convenient than bikes or does Randall just think they are cooler? Please discuss. 172.69.58.128 04:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The convenience of scooters probably includes their relative storability/carryability between uses, easier to hop on and off (also you might get away with scootering down long corridors where a bike would be (more) frowned upon) and takes less maintenance. (Electric ones do have the additional fuss of charging (and ICE ones needing fuel/being more disruptively noisy), but hard to tell whether Randall means shove-along or motorised in any way). Probably he doesn't mean mopeds (also known as 'scooters', in some contexts), but they also may be considered like bicycles but marginally more convenient (when fuelled/serviced) and commensurately a little bit more dangerous (though I'd argue further over to near full-on-motorbikes, myself). But it's a lot of speculation either way. 172.71.242.28 11:32, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Very inconvenient, and definitely more dangerous. No way to transport anything except in a rucksack. Terribly small wheels. Muscle-powered very strenous compared to a bike. Electrical make you freeze to death in winter. Wear down very quickly (bearings in wheels and steering, brakes). Only use for scooters are flat, smooth passages, certainly indoors. --172.71.246.69 09:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I think Randall's use of "scooters" here, may include mopeds & ebikes, since ebikes aren't listed here, yet are roughly equivalent to (or even just are) a moped, while mopeds & high-output ebikes <45MPH are often classed among "scooters". ProphetZarquon (talk) 21:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

A "high-output e-bike" is (or should) be classified under "motorbike". And I already (before I read this) included reference to electrically-assisted bicycles under the Bicycles entry itself. There may be various distinctions recognised under different local laws, but power-assisted-pedalling versions (augmenting, but not making insigificant, the riders' 'normal' effort) and power-rather-than-pedalling versions (which would go all the way up to those with no pedals, totally reliant upon the motor) would probably sit either side of the notional divide that might be recognised by those in charge of classifying them. 172.69.79.182 22:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I suspect what ProphetZarquon was getting at is that they are often referred to as "scooters", as opposed to legally classed as such.172.70.163.121 10:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

"Scooter" for moped, yes. But though "moped" comes from "motor-assisted pedal cycles", where I come from, they're mini-motorbikes and essentially classed as such (you need road training, driving licence, insurance, vehicle registration), divorced entirely from non-motorised bicycles and now (fudging the issue) those bicycles with electric motor assistance. It's perhaps confusing enough with "bike" being understood differently by the cycling and the motorcycling communities, but an "e-bike" that's a "scooter" is really going to be an "e-motorbike" to avoid this kind of ambiguity, and I invite anyone who might be more confused by the current crop of motor-assisted-bicycles being called "e-bikes" to submit their own more disambiguative term. 172.70.90.65 21:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC) (PS, the CAPTCHA I was just presented with was asking about "Motorcycles" and, as usual, just contained several obvious mopeds/scooters... But I know from experience that I have to go along with supporting the CAPTCHA's technically miseducated classification system.)

Thing is, in a technical sense, any ebike is literally a moped, & not only are mopeds commonly and legally classed with scooters, but there's also a big regulatory gap between ≤750W ebikes & the >12KW emotos that consistently require "motorcycle" registration. A low-power ebike is just classed as a bicycle in most US regions, & over 45 MPH you're always into motorcycle classifications, but the plethora of moderately assisted 2-wheelers in between, are not nearly so powerful or fast as to require motorcycle registration in many states, & instead fall into the non-licensed "scooter" classification, right alongside the classic mopeds which their performance characteristics are most directly comparable to. Not legal on interstates or other high-speed routes, nor on non-motorized routes, but legal to ride on surface streets & generally without requiring licensure. A low-power ebike doesn't differ from the performance characteristics of a bicycle enough to merit a separate listing, & a high-powered emoto is literally just an EV motorcycle, but a 1500W "ebike" is technically most similar to a moped, & legally falls into that same "scooter" category in many jurisdictions, due to being utterly unable to attain highway speeds. So, to the extent that some ebikes are much faster than a bicycle yet slower than a motorcycle, I believe those would logically be classed (like mopeds) as scooters.

ProphetZarquon (talk) 01:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I would expect that unicycles are more dangerous than bicycles. For that matter, bicycles are probably more dangerous than tricycles, and those would be slightly less safe than quadcycles. There we probably hit the optimal point, but I doubt anyone has done an in dept study into this matter. Just for starters: a double blind test would not be particularly safe for the riders. 172.71.98.101 07:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

When you have learnt how to ride a bike, a tricycle can actually be harder to ride, due to having to unlearn your existing bicycling instincts. To turn (or not to turn) on a bicycle involves at least 'microleaning', as well as steering, which can actually work against the steering geometry on a tricyle (perhaps a quadricycle is less effected, as one reverts to car-like behaviour/has to account for uneven road surfaces even more differently). Before you have the bike-riding skills (especially on front-wheel-pedal kids' trikes, which have yet more things going on than proper road-cycling tricycles) you generally don't get into the wrong mode of balance where you actually veer off exactly the opposite way to what you intend and maybe start to lift one of the rear wheels off the ground, or more.

For similar reasons, it's much better to have a completely new passenger ('stoker') on a tandem who is not a cyclist than one who is (but it being their first time on a tandem). The 'steersman' does not need too much complication from their "luggage" instinctively leaning on their own (or unconsciously tugging left/right on their fixed-handlebars), at least until they've practiced their coordination so that there's just the right amount of weight redistribution at the right time to make the whole machine correctly metastable for the circumstances. A non-cyclist can generally be asked to "just sit there and pedal" and not, despite being told, throw themselves around in various ways not related to the (synchronised with the steersman) pedal-revs. 172.71.242.28 11:32, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

There's a "jetpack" missing to the right of hot air ballons... 108.162.221.61 10:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

On the far right. Together with paragliding. --172.71.246.69 09:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey now, paragliding is quite safe & convenient, so long as you can locate updrafts, & have free airspace, & stay away from the back & sides of any upwind slopes, & don't bank too hard, & ... OK yeah, I can see it now. ProphetZarquon (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

And jetskis.172.70.90.177 08:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, helium balloon chair.172.70.85.7 08:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Hot air balloons can be particularly dangerous in large groups, each being approximately 1.11% of an extinction level event. 172.69.246.143 15:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

That's only asserted to be true for the red ones... 172.70.85.157 17:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The place where motorcycles are on the map is why my uncle calls them "donercycles" - so many of their riders are organ donors because they die so much.

Other in-between modes of transport?

So which modes of transports belong in the white band between the "Zone of specialty and recreational vehicles" and the Hot air balloons? I would suggest the Autogyro (see #1972) between the skis and the hot air balloon. Any other suggestions? Frog23 (talk) 22:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

A shovel? Tunneling is both dangerous & inconvenient...

ProphetZarquon (talk) 22:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Jet packs and guns https://whatif.xkcd.com/21/ Apollo11 (talk) 16:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Explain "sign error" (done?)

I came here to find out what a sign-error is, but the description assumes I already know. 162.158.74.69 (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2024 (please sign your comments with ~~~~)

I think he means if you have erroneously given a negative as a positive, and thereby flipped your y-axis the wrong way up - making inconvenient things appear convenient.172.70.162.186 08:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

And flipped the x-axis. Or at least how you treat it. Note that one axis is "more is better" (convenience) and the other is "less is better" (danger), so any analysis that looks at comparative overall desirability has to treat one axis's position in a negative manner, whether seeking the coordinate with least deviation from perfection, the most deviation from imperfection, the most desirable vector away from a midpoint or whatever. The choice of exactly how to compare might juggle the effective linear rank of all items, although it visually looks like Trains would always rank first in most treatments (except those with a very weird weighting between the two measures, or even an 'ideal' position not on the "not dangerous at all" edge but maybe at a 'comfortably desired' amount of thrill).

So you need to apply exactly one sign-flip to identify the (normally) practical zone for being best (not "very convenient and very dangerous", which is high+high seeking; nor "undangerous and inconvenient", which seeks low+low). Apply that sign-flip to x instead of y (or vice-versa, depending upon your goal-seeking method) and you're identifying Hot Air Balloons as your perfect solution instead of (by Randall's apparent perception) Trains.

At this point, you've not (just) flipped the Convenience axis over. Either you've flipped both around or you're now not doing the sanity-check on the original graph at all and just relying upon your doubly-missigned 'algorithm' (one input flipped, the other deflipped).

A related sign-error coordinate thing is in 3D data, where left-handed and right-handed coordinate systems are just a single sign-flip away (or all three flipped!), but often also combined with whether you should go with z being 'into' (or out of!) the paper graph (standard x-along and y-up, from 2D graphing) or it being 'up' (or 'down'!) with x/y being both laid horizontally. Both can be made true on a 'tabletop map', but less obvious which is the best way to use on a vertical screen. All this before you start applying other rotations, of course, to the data you initially define in whichever choice of fundemental coordinates you wish. But it can be confusing if you're unsure as to which baseline (left/right-handed, and "which axis is z" probably less certain than subsequently filling in where the other two are) either to implement yourself or to interact with when you start work atop another basic implementation. I probably had more designs come up sideways (in some manner) than I ever did have them accidentally mirrored, whenever I started to dabble in a new 3D platform. 172.69.195.230 10:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)