3006: Demons

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Demons

Title text: Though they do appreciate how much he improved the heating system for the flame pit.

Explanation

Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment devised by James Clerk Maxwell that appears to refute the second law of thermodynamics, which roughly says that heat always flows from hotter regions to colder. In the thought experiment, two chambers, both containing a gas at the same temperature, have a door between them. A being (later called a demon by Lord Kelvin) lets only fast-moving gas molecules move from the first chamber to the second, and only slow-moving ones move from the second chamber to the first. The second chamber's gas gradually warms as the average speed of its molecules increases, and the first chamber's gas likewise cools, apparently contradicting the second law. However, the actions of such a demon would use up at least the amount of energy that could later be extracted from having a gas separated into hot and cold parts, so such a demon could not gain energy and Maxwell's demon does not break the second law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics is a fairly common theme in xkcd, last being mentioned in 2848: Breaker Box.

This demon behaves very differently from mythological demons, which exist in the afterlife (usually some form of hell) and punish evil humans after death by causing them great suffering (for example, by boiling them in oil or casting them into flame pits). Randall jokes that if Maxwell's demon were to encounter more stereotypical mythological ones, he would probably not fit in very well because of his very different approach, proposing treating humans like the particles of the thought experiment. While a few physics-savvy humans might feel offended by such treatment, real suffering could be caused by the anxiety of knowing that, once you choose to cross the door, you are not allowed to return for all eternity.

The scientist Maxwell challenged traditional notions about physical phenomena by providing modern statistical explanations of "large-scale effects" such as temperature changes and modern infinitesimal explanations of "distant effects" such as electromagnetic forces. In a similar vein, Maxwell's demon in the comic challenges the mythological demons' traditional notion of torture by proposing modern psychological torture.

The title text continues the joke by suggesting that while Maxwell's demon's idea for torturing the souls of the damned might seem whimsical to the other demons, it could still be used to heat the flame pits better. The other demons' appreciation of this technical improvement mirrors real-life situations where kids that "have trouble fitting in with the others" due to their unusual ideas for games and atypical interests (e.g., in thermodynamics) occasionally earn some appreciation when their cleverness is found to be useful.

This comic was published on 1 November, 2024, the day after Halloween, around the time when many contemporary comic strips have demonic, supernatural or other spooky themes, as well as 4 days before the anniversary of Maxwell's passing (5th of November).

Transcript

[Three demons, Cueball-like in general appearance but with horns and pointed tails, are standing together while surrounded by flames. The leftmost demon is holding a pitchfork and the next one has his hands down. They are looking at the third to the right standing a bit apart from them. This last demon, Maxwell's demon as given in the caption, holds his palms up while looking at the other two.]

Demon with pitchfork: What's our plan for the souls today? Boil them in oil?

Middle demon: We could cast them into the flame pit.

Maxwell's demon: What if we set up two rooms with a door in between, but– get this– we only let them go through it one way!

[Caption below the panel:]

Maxwell's Demon had trouble fitting in with the others.

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Discussion

Instead of an iron pitchfork, he probably uses a silver hammer! 172.71.26.54 16:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

🤓☝ moment Caliban (talk) 20:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Why are his hands backwards??? What did you do to him?! P?sych??otic?pot??at???o (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that while boiling souls in oil or casting them into flame pit is traditional, multiple authors already made the observation that it's not really that effective and that modern devils would likely go for psychological torture instead. -- Hkmaly (talk) 01:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

That's what I thought... it's a beautiful meta-comment that the comic makes this transition to modern torture coincide with the transition to modern physics, as it is embodied by Maxwell, who explained "large-scale effects" and "distant effects" microscopically resp. infinitesimally. Transgalactic (talk) 03:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

As discussed in Pratchett's Faust Eric, both damned and demons might actually prefer traditional physical punishment to a more tedious psychological regime. 172.70.162.36 03:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The evolution of life (entropy-reversing agents) disproves the second law of thermodynamics, which is rooted in short-term statistics of large systems rather than systems where the duration of time greatly exceeds the number of particles. Maxwell’s Demon could be seen as a simplification of this —- that taking action to counter probability does indeed do so, and is indeed probable eventually. 172.68.3.96 14:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that life doesn't disprove 2LD at all. The law applies to the whole interacting thermodynamic system, not just the a subset of the system. Life-altered entropy is entirely possible at the 'expense' of a wider rebalancing within 'whole' system. The Earth's biosphere is (mostly) 'fed' by (some of) the heat of the Sun, which in turn is provided by the gradual (but greater) entropy-obeying transition of the star into its various future forms. Life just hitches a ride on this. (It's an interesting question where the 'spare' entropy-change would go if the life wasn't here, actually, except that 2LD doesn't force a given magnitude of change, merely that it not be as if time-reversed.) 172.70.58.5 16:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, not necessarily a bad torture method depending on how it was implemented. You start out with people not knowing anything, and wandering around, but then they gradually flow through the door. Meanwhile, on the other side of the door, it slowly becomes more and more crowded as people drift into a limited space. As time goes on it only gets worse as more and more people enter the room and it becomes denser and denser. Eventually, you have everyone is crushed together in what is then basically a box stuffed to the brim with bodies, and even then they know it will only get worse and that had they only stayed outside they would have been fine. Combine this with a large enough group of people and an eternity of time, and it probably would work pretty well. 172.68.22.191 05:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't even need to ever get crowded in the second room. It could be two identical rooms per soul. Just spending eternity in one room, knowing that the only choice you will ever have for the rest of eternity is to go through that door, and then you will never be able to leave that room or make another decision again. 172.70.90.198 19:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Let's compute the human equivalent temperature...T=mv^2/2/k...something around 10^23 K. Hot as hell :-) 172.69.109.3 09:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder how they'd get along with daemons from computing. N-eh (talk) 20:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

"All of the other demons used to laugh and call him names. They never let poor Maxwell's demon join in any demon games. Then one hot night in Hell, Satan came to say: "Maxwell's demon with your love of violating entropy, won't you cool down hell tonight?" Then all the demons loved him, as they shouted out with glee: "Maxwell the entropy demon, you'll go down in history!" 172.68.55.11 19:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that is wonderful. Truly a work of art. 42.book.addict^{Talk to me!} 19:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

nice new signature! + the phrase "truly a work of art" forever haunts me Caliban (talk) 08:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It's worth noting that despite being strongly associated with Christianity in popular culture, the stereotypical portrayal of demons as pitchfork-wielding fiends who "punish evil humans after death" isn't Christian. In Christianity, demons only encourage evil in the living (a la the "demon on the shoulder" archetype and The Exorcist-style possessions.) The "punish evil humans after death" superstition is a holdover from pre-Christian paganism. The Daleks (talk) 00:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

New category: Infernal Strips

What do you think about a new Infernal category for strips with demons or in hell? There are quite a few. 501, 533... 172.70.47.10 17:56, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. 42.book.addict (talk) 18:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I just tagged a half-dozen strips, but a site admin will have to create the category page itself. It turns out there was some overlap with a "Religion" category, whodathunkit. 172.70.46.243 19:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

They were tagged inconsistently (at least two different forms of the category). And as they were all redlinked I undid them all anyway.

The proper process is more like:

1. Say something like Hey, I think we need a "Category:<Foo>",
   • To justify it, identify a handful of comics (or all of them, if you're being thorough). Unless perhaps the comic is called "SOMETHING SOMETHING NUMBER 1" and it very much looks like it's going to be the start of a series, although still might be best to wait for "SOMETHING SOMETHING NUMBER 2".
2. Get comments (e.g. Yes, a good general idea, but it should probably be "Category:<Bar>" to be consistent/accurate/properly-inclusive/etc) and additions (Yeah, and comic in #1234 would fit too!)
3. When someone who can (e.g. 42, there) decides it's been successfully argued to an agreement (YMMV), they use the final list (and the agreed upon name) to create the category and at least start the process of adding the category memberships.

To be honest, though I agree about the relevence of the created Category:Rockets, as just done, I also think that one was done far too quickly. I'd at least wait a few days after the last "Good idea!", just in case someone who checks in regularly but not frequently (e.g. once a week) has any wise words to add. 162.158.74.49 22:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree it would be nice with a list of possible comics, and maybe a better title. Is it to do with demons of hell. Could religion be used, just added that here as the other demons are typical Christian like demons. --Kynde (talk) 10:44, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Names for this category: Category:Demons, Category:Infernal, Category:Hell. Did I miss any? 42.book.addict (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Me again. Sorry about the IP address. Thanks for the suggestions. Does this wiki maybe have a page where we could discuss projects, or do we have to do all of the discussions in various strip entries? I'd love to have a page about Thought Experiments where we could list the various strips and all of the relevant experiments. 172.70.46.178 23:08, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there is explain xkcd:Community_portal/Proposals. Should I move this conversation there? 42.book.addict (talk) 23:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: I have added Category:Demons. If y’all want a name change, I can move the page once enough support has been shown. 42.book.addict (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Me again. Awesome, thanks! I'm looking through a few of the other category suggestions, It looks like there is also a proposal for a "ghost" sub-category. I guess infernal/demons, celestial/angels, ghosts, and religion could all be subcategories of "supernatural". Are there any other supernatural entities we could include? 172.71.126.94 14:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

New category: Classical Thought Experiments

While I'm at it, I'd also suggest a new category for Classical Thought Experiments, everything from Maxwell's Demon to Schroedinger's Cat to the Trolley Problem. Readers may be familiar with some, but not all of the classical references, and it would be nice to have them all accessible from the same page. 172.70.46.243 19:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I can see something like this being useful. Not entirely sure of the name, but maybe, and I'm not sure what a better one would be. (To start off the discussion, as described above.) 172.70.58.21 22:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Second that, for whatever it's worth Yamaplos (talk) 00:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Third. 42.book.addict (talk) 01:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Fourthed 172.69.71.71 13:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

come on baby, thought experiments category Caliban (talk) 08:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

There's some other demons made famous by thought experiments. I wonder how Maxwell's Demon would get along with the Evil Demon that tricks people into thinking they're 17th century philosophers. And I'm sure Laplace's Demon already knows how they'd get along. DanielLC (talk) 23:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah bother, ninjaed. Laplaces Demon was the first that came to my mind after reading the strip. 172.71.160.115+

These demons are the nerds of hell 172.69.71.71 13:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)